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Jon Joe posted:New MoL is up and it looks like there are probably only a few chapters left! Sweet. Glad that it looks like there will be a proper conclusion.
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Jun 1, 2018 00:05
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This is going to sound weird, but for some reason Practical Guide to Evil reminds me of the Korean webtoon Kubera. Something about the setting and themes gives it a similar feeling to me.
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Jun 1, 2018 03:55
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i think part of the reason that the prt would be much more lenient towards ashley than taylor is also that ashley has a power that looks a whole lot like an unlimited destructive force where as taylors power is to control bugs and unlimited destructive force sounds a lot better for preventing giant monsters from destroying the world
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Jun 1, 2018 04:50
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Ytlaya posted:This is just a general question, but do those of you who have read all the current Practical Guide to Evil get the impression that the main story beats have been planned out from the beginning? I'm asking mostly because I think that's one of the things that allowed Worm to do so well, despite its many flaws; wildbow obviously had the main ideas of "these are the main bad guys, they have these motives, etc" planned out from early on. I also think serials like this benefit strongly from always having a goal to work towards, since otherwise they just start meandering (I get the impression this may be happening with Wandering Inn, judging from people's posts). I honestly think it has more comprehensive planning behind it than Worm. Also, absolutely make sure you pay attention to the little blurbs at the start of the chapters, they are often pretty hilarious. Dread Emperor Traitorous is magnificent. And on to discussion of the most recent chapter of PracGuide: I feel like all the pieces are assembled and the end of the Battle of the Camps is at hand. Curious to see if Akua can use any sorcery while in Cat's body, since that was her thing more than stabbing. Interesting insight into Saint and Grey Pilgrim's limitations. I honestly wonder if Catherine could have killed Saint in one of her confrontations, since she undeniably has a far deeper well of power to pull on and far fewer stamina issues. Of course, that just sets up the Grey Pilgrim coming to save the day...
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Jun 1, 2018 08:16
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I don't doubt that Wildbow had a ton of worldbuilding done, nor that he had the idea that the story would end with the Golden Morning, but it strikes me that the opinion that it was all planned out from the beginning or prone to being improvised 'on the spot' tends to differ depending on who you talk to. My guess is that he had signposts he wanted to hit, knew whenabouts when he wanted to hit them, and had a plot linking them that he could extend or collapse depending on the audience's response to certain things. Like, with serials, you need to tightrope a pretty interesting line. On one side, you need to let people think the story could change at any time. On the other, they can't think you're just making it up as you go. I think Wildbow struck a sweet spot with Worm, but I'll never believe that Skitter was at risk of dying during the Leviathan arc and having the story switch to the other character. Just try to picture Worm going on from that. On the other hand, I think Ward is leaning vastly more towards the improvise side of things. Pact, too, struck me as being far more improvisational than Worm. TWI struck me as being pretty loosely planned from the start and, like a lot of LitRPG stories, relying on 'level up = progress'. There're a fair few serials that feel like they're just kind of going on and on and there's no real endgame in sight. Wildbow definitively finishing Worm is, IMO, one of the reasons why he's bigger than a lot of other serial authors. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 11:11
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I also feel like the stuff going down in the Boston Games arc of Ward is meant to highlight that treating someone with kid gloves and giving them all the chances in the world doesn't always end with them turning over to to the side of the heroes or getting the help they need. But at the same time, that doesn't mean it's not worth it, either, depending on the person and the circumstances. Even from a position of ruthless practicality, the original Damsel in Distress was someone you don't want to escalate, and the fact that she made it so long as 'just' a b-list villain indicates to me that the strategy actually pretty much worked until she was picked up by the Slaughterhouse 9, at which point her pride was utterly broken by Bonesaw's bodily modifications and she was surrounded by people constantly egging her on to escalate. Of course, there's a pretty significant amount of time between the Boston Games and when that happened, even if I'm not sure of the exact length of time, so it's possible that at some point she just decided to start deliberating killing people, but since only Edict and Licit were 'on the case' when the S9 came through, I doubt it. Treating her with kid gloves kept her relatively contained until outside forces hosed that up.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:44
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TWI updated today. It was a double update for patreon subscribers, finishing the mini arc from what would be the public release chapter today. The last of these chapters is, imo, one of the best chapters she's ever written. I cried a little. It's such a good story, goddamn.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:25
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The Shortest Path posted:TWI updated today. It was a double update for patreon subscribers, finishing the mini arc from what would be the public release chapter today. The current chapter with what I assume is Yellow having a form of PTSD making him hostile towards both Pawn and Erin culminating in the first painted soldier abberation, Lyonettes worry about the inns future, Erin not being able to figure out how to handle the goblins and Mishas "Hate Goblins" scene... This was a surprisingly bleak chapter. Happy to hear it leads up to a good finale for the mini-arc, but I hope it ends on a happier note. 
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Jun 2, 2018 21:47
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Ward: Well, I was right that Damsel didn't voluntarily join the s9! It's cool we've gotten a glimpse of her 'sister' now, although this is going to make referring to different iterations of Ashley even more confusing. I guess I can call her Ash, as opposed to the original's Damsel and our main character's Ashley?
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Jun 3, 2018 17:36
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PetraCore posted:Ward: Ashie/Slashie 
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Jun 3, 2018 19:10
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Dikkfor posted:Ashie/Slashie
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Jun 3, 2018 21:39
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Practical Guide: If you're going to leave in a 4 lane backdoor highway for a possession to take over, that's a well made contingency for it
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Jun 4, 2018 05:37
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lurksion posted:Practical Guide: And now the Rightful Queen of Callow, as crowned by the Church of Light, as demonstrated on the field of battle, as proven by throwing off the stranglehold of Praes, gets to awaken from a coma to battle foreign usurpers who have been given every chance to retreat and whom the leader of has proven to have not pure intentions--the liberation of Callow from Praes (which has already effectively been done)--but rather intentions of greed. I legitimately love that out of everyone we've seen in the heads of this entire time, it's only Akua that seems to fully grasp that the Crusaders are not the side of Good or the Heroes in this tale. I mean Catherine definitely planned it that way, but it was enjoyable seeing Akua glory in both being a glorious villain in terms of style, but a Hero in terms of Role in order to kill Heroes. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 05:51
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Prac Guide: Akua fully leaning into her Cat roleplay and enjoying this poo poo was great. Particularly her attempts to articulate the correct counter taunt. EDIT: and Akua dunking on (possibly) not-Dreseden. EDIT EDIT: Akua really missed her calling in life as an actress. SITB fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 06:04
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SITB posted:Prac Guide: Akua fully leaning into her Cat roleplay and enjoying this poo poo was great. Particularly her attempts to articulate the correct counter taunt. Holy poo poo, that was a loving brilliant chapter. Akua's return is, as far as I'm concerned, entirely justified by the existence of this chapter. Pure wall to wall brilliance.
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Jun 4, 2018 12:30
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I'll admit to being extremely reluctant to allowing akua to remain, but this is well done indeed. The deft narrative spinning that Cat's done here is great because she's functionally turned the heroes into villains, because yes, she is a villain but absolutely everything said here... SerSpook posted:And now the Rightful Queen of Callow, as crowned by the Church of Light, as demonstrated on the field of battle, as proven by throwing off the stranglehold of Praes, gets to awaken from a coma to battle foreign usurpers who have been given every chance to retreat and whom the leader of has proven to have not pure intentions--the liberation of Callow from Praes (which has already effectively been done)--but rather intentions of greed. is spot on. Cat laid the trap, and both the Pilgrim and the Saint had only just started to realise it before deciding to push in for the kill anyway.
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Jun 4, 2018 12:36
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I think the gods below and/or Black have concocted a plan to create an Evil Hero here, someone associated with Evil but who narratively can reap all the benefits of being a Hero. e: This works even better when we consider the strong probability that Good had Plans for Catherine before Black intervened. Pretty certain she was gonna be Named no matter what. To be honest, considering how underwhelming the White Knight has been I suspect the current holder was meant to be a different Named and they had to sorta last minute slot him into the White Knight spot. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 13:14
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Prac Guide Kaleidoscope 6: OH poo poo, MOM'S HOME
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Jun 4, 2018 13:59
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I'm re-reading the early part of Worm for fun, and it blows my mind that Taylor was capable of deluding herself to the extent that she thought she was capable of lying to Tattletale about her dumb double agent plan. I get that she was intentionally not thinking it through because she was enjoying having friends so much, but there are multiple occasions when she sees Lisa sit there and go "Judging by your shrinking wardrobe you have bullies at school and your dad's oblivious, oh yeah, your body language when I mentioned parents just now tells me that your mom's dead, sorry about that," yet she never seems to think that her lies about her core plan might get immediately found out.
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Jun 5, 2018 16:22
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She's so desperate for positive human interaction at that point in her life that she doesn't even want to think about being found out, because that would mean losing all her friends. It's also why she keeps lying to herself about eventually turning them in but keeps finding excuses to push that out.
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Jun 5, 2018 16:26
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Omi no Kami posted:I'm re-reading the early part of Worm for fun, and it blows my mind that Taylor was capable of deluding herself to the extent that she thought she was capable of lying to Tattletale about her dumb double agent plan. I get that she was intentionally not thinking it through because she was enjoying having friends so much, but there are multiple occasions when she sees Lisa sit there and go "Judging by your shrinking wardrobe you have bullies at school and your dad's oblivious, oh yeah, your body language when I mentioned parents just now tells me that your mom's dead, sorry about that," yet she never seems to think that her lies about her core plan might get immediately found out. This peaks in her conversation with Armsmaster in arc 3. She doesn't consider the possibility that anything else would tip Tattletale off about her plan, but she does use the possibility of Tattletale finding out as an excuse to tell Armsmaster the bare minimum number of details about the bank robbery.
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Jun 5, 2018 16:31
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The Shortest Path posted:She's so desperate for positive human interaction at that point in her life that she doesn't even want to think about being found out, because that would mean losing all her friends. It's also why she keeps lying to herself about eventually turning them in but keeps finding excuses to push that out. i describe at least the first part of Worm as a really good allegory for why people join gangs
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Jun 6, 2018 00:10
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i describe at least the first part of Worm as a really good allegory for why people join gangs Oh my god
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Jun 6, 2018 01:03
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Taylor is a loving great unreliable narrator and I'm glad that Wildbow seems to like unreliable narrators as much as I do. Sy is really good for that too, although he's got literal brain damage as an excuse for at least part of Twig.
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Jun 6, 2018 01:37
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PetraCore posted:Taylor is a loving great unreliable narrator and I'm glad that Wildbow seems to like unreliable narrators as much as I do. Sy is really good for that too, although he's got literal brain damage as an excuse for at least part of Twig. Victoria is the first of his protagonists that could not super easily be the villain of another story, and if and when Team Therapy goes off the rails I expect her to join the ranks. Worm: actual supervillain, with nominally good intentions Pact: scion-of-diabolists willing to use various horrible measures (dislikes using actual diabolism, but he deployed the Imp of Beasts once and a half and had the Barber and the books in his back pocket; also, Rose is quite villainous for similarly justifiable reasons) Twig: duh
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Jun 6, 2018 05:56
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PetraCore posted:Taylor is a loving great unreliable narrator and I'm glad that Wildbow seems to like unreliable narrators as much as I do. Sy is really good for that too, although he's got literal brain damage as an excuse for at least part of Twig. Taylor is probably one of the best uses of the unreliable narrator I can remember offhand. A lot of authors make it too obvious or genuinely don't know how the trope works (*cough* Heavy Rain *cough*), but Worm is probably one of the few stories where my opinion of a character did a complete 180 upon rereading.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:57
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To be honest I don't even really understand the "I noticed Taylor was really unreliable on reread" people, since it was really obvious to me the first time around that Taylor was just constantly rationalizing things in a way that was convenient for her, while making actual bad decisions. There's only one thing Taylor does where I can sorta understand her side of things, and that's the way she enforces order in her territories after Leviathan/SH9. I can kinda buy the idea that more violence than heroes allow themselves might be necessary to maintain order in a situation like post-Leviathan/SH9 Brockton Bay, though even then I'm not entirely sure and there's a very strong argument to be made that abandoning the city was actually the right choice all along. Other than that, people always point to Taylor providing a high quality of life for her "subjects" and completely ignore the fact that she's only able to do that using the money illicitly earned by Coil. The alternative to her actions isn't "not giving those people food/shelter" but rather "using the money through actual public institutions rather than a criminal organization." edit: I feel like the exposure readers are given to folks like Miss Militia and the Wards is also meant to highlight how distorted Taylor's perception of heroes is, and how they're generally better than villains on average (pretty much all the Wards except ex-vigilante Shadow Stalker are good people). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 21:48
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SerSpook posted:And now the Rightful Queen of Callow, as crowned by the Church of Light, as demonstrated on the field of battle, as proven by throwing off the stranglehold of Praes, gets to awaken from a coma to battle foreign usurpers who have been given every chance to retreat and whom the leader of has proven to have not pure intentions--the liberation of Callow from Praes (which has already effectively been done)--but rather intentions of greed. Yes. I feel like Cat has been a villain so long that she can't quite view herself as anything but. It's good to get someone looking at the situation with fresh eyes. I guess dying and getting your soul ripped out gives on perspective.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:48
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Ytlaya posted:To be honest I don't even really understand the "I noticed Taylor was really unreliable on reread" people, since it was really obvious to me the first time around that Taylor was just constantly rationalizing things in a way that was convenient for her, while making actual bad decisions. For me it was less about realizing that she was unreliable (her rationalizations and lack of self-awareness were obvious from moment 1), and more about understanding how subtle yet far-reaching that unreliability was. For probably the first 2/3 of my first readthrough I thought she was a troubled kid doing her best with a crappy situation, and felt that a lot of her actions were completely justified. That only really started to change in the crappy Wards section, where we got to see how people who weren't the Undersiders reacted to being around her for long periods. Second readthrough she came off as a crazy person in a lot of the early chapters- reading it with a full understanding of how her pathology worked made it much easier to spot tons and tons (and tons, and tons) of opportunities where she turned a neutral or potentially salvageable situation into she and her psychological warfare-themed superhero gang doing something awful and crushing all who stood in their way.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:24
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Ytlaya posted:edit: I feel like the exposure readers are given to folks like Miss Militia and the Wards is also meant to highlight how distorted Taylor's perception of heroes is, anad how they're generally better than villains on average (pretty much all the Wards except ex-vigilante Shadow Stalker are good people). Nah. Readers are way too kind to Miss Militia. For most of the story, She's the "good cop" who turns a blind eye to the crimes and corruption of her fellow cops because she doesn't want to make waves.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:58
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Honestly the prt were just so dumb that people rationalised away Taylor’s rationalisations.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:56
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Weirdly enough, most of the wards/protectorate interludes made me like them less. Yamada's first interlude was fantastic, but a lot of the corruption and hijinks convinced me that turning brockton bay into a feudal duchy was basically the right move for Taylor. I think I'm in the minority on this one, but Colin's arc in particular infuriated me. I genuinely don't get why people like him; he's basically Tinker Taylor (soldier, spy?), insofar as he's a competent but unsociable jerkass whose focus on the mission comes at the expense of pretty much everything else. Seeing him basically get rewarded with a robot girlfriend and cool iron man implants in return for explicitly murdering tons of capes in order to get himself a promotion was the moment I basically gave up on ever liking the PRT as an organization.Affi posted:Honestly the prt were just so dumb that people rationalised away Taylor’s rationalisations. Yeah, and this is something I've never developed a firm opinion on- they seem so corrupt and cartoonishly incompetent at every single juncture that when I was first reading it, I actually felt it was unrealistic and one of my bigger non-structural criticisms of the story. In the later arcs I assumed that what we'd seen was Taylor's sheer hatred of authority causing them to come off worse in her mind, but a surprising number of the dumbass PRT beats actually come when we're seeing them through the eyes of folks like Milita/Colin/Triumph/Yamada, who all have a motivation to see them in a positive light if anything. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 01:00
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Omi no Kami posted:Weirdly enough, most of the wards/protectorate interludes made me like them less. Yamada's first interlude was fantastic, but a lot of the corruption and hijinks convinced me that turning brockton bay into a feudal duchy was basically the right move for Taylor. I think I'm in the minority on this one, but Colin's arc in particular infuriated me. I genuinely don't get why people like him; he's basically Tinker Taylor (soldier, spy?), insofar as he's a competent but unsociable jerkass whose focus on the mission comes at the expense of pretty much everything else. Seeing him basically get rewarded with a robot girlfriend and cool iron man implants in return for explicitly murdering tons of capes in order to get himself a promotion was the moment I basically gave up on ever liking the PRT as an organization. Colin is Wildbow's best character in Worm. He has an arc that spans the whole work (Taylor's basically stumbles to a halt post-Leviathan). Additionally, Wildbow's style of writing helps his interludes. His existence and arc is actually one of the best arguments for Taylor-As-Super-Unreliable given that Colin's whole thing is based around acknowledging and somewhat-solving his personal flaws and he is, as you point out, rewarded for it, eschewing fame, narcissism and power for a simple family life. In contrast, the rest of the PRT makes Taylor actually really reliable. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 01:35
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Ytlaya posted:To be honest I don't even really understand the "I noticed Taylor was really unreliable on reread" people, since it was really obvious to me the first time around that Taylor was just constantly rationalizing things in a way that was convenient for her, while making actual bad decisions. I was talking with a friend about how Taylor actually kills relatively infrequently and always does it only when she feels that she's exhausted all other option and there's a time crunch... and that includes both what she did to Taggart and Alexandria and what she did to Theo's little sister (Aster?). Like, I don't think she's justified every time she kills someone directly in Worm, but it's always pretty understandable, even the thing with Aster. But at the same time, she jumps to maiming extremely quickly, and she gets super nasty with it, and then she justifies that as 'I knew they could heal/regenerate' or 'I had to make an example of them'. What she did to Valefor is one of the standout examples for me, because I'm absolutely positive there were more ways to temporarily blind him than filling his eyes with maggots, and the very permanent damage she did to his eyes ends up making him more dangerous when he reappears in Ward, because his power has shifted to his voice and now he can affect multiple people at once. She just didn't care when she maimed him, because there's something seriously off about her sense of empathy under pressure, even if she's not literally a psychopath.
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Jun 7, 2018 05:47
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Falstaff posted:Nah. Readers are way too kind to Miss Militia. For most of the story, She's the "good cop" who turns a blind eye to the crimes and corruption of her fellow cops because she doesn't want to make waves. Miss Militia is an okay person who is easy to relate to, but she's not really some shining beacon of heroism. The Brockton Bay PRT in general gets some really lovely management and people 'not making waves' under that is a real problem, even if one should never go full Colin with circumventing the red tape. I like the Brockton Bay Wards, though, with the obvious exception of Shadow Stalker. Actually I kind of like Sophia too, but more in the 'she's an interesting character' than 'she's a good person', and unfortunately for her, she's actually one of the most boring examples of her character type in Worm.
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Jun 7, 2018 05:58
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I remember when I first started reading the S9 ark I was really hoping that Sophia would be one of the chosen candidates because Jack could 100% convince her that what he is doing would be a natural extension of her lovely worldview, but it never happened. What could have been...
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Jun 7, 2018 14:03
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PetraCore posted:I was talking with a friend about how Taylor actually kills relatively infrequently and always does it only when she feels that she's exhausted all other option and there's a time crunch... and that includes both what she did to Taggart and Alexandria and what she did to Theo's little sister (Aster?). Like, I don't think she's justified every time she kills someone directly in Worm, but it's always pretty understandable, even the thing with Aster. But at the same time, she jumps to maiming extremely quickly, and she gets super nasty with it, and then she justifies that as 'I knew they could heal/regenerate' or 'I had to make an example of them'. What she did to Valefor is one of the standout examples for me, because I'm absolutely positive there were more ways to temporarily blind him than filling his eyes with maggots, and the very permanent damage she did to his eyes ends up making him more dangerous when he reappears in Ward, because his power has shifted to his voice and now he can affect multiple people at once. She just didn't care when she maimed him, because there's something seriously off about her sense of empathy under pressure, even if she's not literally a psychopath. It's really easy to forget or not even notice things like: - Taylor lies and tells Sundancer that the adjacent buildings are empty of civilians so that Sundancer will use her power on the Nine. Taylor totally sacrificed those people for a shot at the Nine. - Taylor again refrains from mentioning to Sundancer that there are still people inside Echidna, so that Sundancer will go through with executing her. Taylor deludes herself into thinking that everybody knows this and is tacitly okay with making the sacrifice, but Taylor is the only one with a sensory power that makes her aware that those people are in there. - When using her bugs to indiscriminately swing around Defiant's nano-knife in the Cauldron base, she kills an unknowable number of Irregulars and Cauldron prisoners. - Shooting Coil in the head in cold blood was a situation where she felt she was out of options, but there was no time crunch. She was very deliberate with this one. Honorable mentions: - She comes within seconds of killing Triumph, a guiltless hero, to compel his father to give in to Coil's demands. This scene is followed by her deciding that thinking about what she did makes her uncomfortable and mentally disassociating into her swarm. - Taylor never seems to have a moment's hesitation about killing endless waves of Echidna clones, S9000 clones and Nilbog creatures. I'll give her a pass on this one because nobody else seems to care about this, ever. But, Ward has given us POVs from the latter two classes of being, and Worm gave us a (deleted) POV from Witness, so we know they are "people" too. - Taylor directly kills people, notably including a number of Yangban, who impede her on the path toward becoming Khepri, but you could argue that she's not herself anymore at this point. Yeah, in many of these cases she feels backed into a corner and out of options, but that's kinda the exact problem.
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Jun 7, 2018 16:43
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Calef posted:It's really easy to forget or not even notice things like: Are you saying that those are bad things? They all seem to me like pretty reasonable actions for her to take in the context of the story.
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Jun 7, 2018 17:16
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I think the lengths she goes with Triumph is a little beyond the pale. Triumph's father is an rear end in a top hat, but he didn't do anything wrong. I do think it's noteworthy that the most heinous things Taylor ends up doing in the original story (murdering a toddler, torturing a prisoner to death) are done while she's wearing a white hat, and with the sanction of other white hats.
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Jun 7, 2018 17:24
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sunken fleet posted:Are you saying that those are bad things? They all seem to me like pretty reasonable actions for her to take in the context of the story. I was actually pointing out that "Taylor rarely kills people" is not true if you expand your scope to include collateral damage. Something can be both "reasonable" and "evil", of course. Executing a rival gang leader is certainly reasonable, but if you find yourself pulling the trigger, you should ask yourself what led you into that position in the first place. But whether or not you consider murder to be a bad thing, those are mostly things she didn't need to do. She could have punted on that particular plan to corner the Nine and tried to find one that didn't involve sacrificing people. She could have told somebody there were still people inside Echidna and delayed killing her. She could have exposed Coil for who he was and tried to get him put in jail. She could have ... not done all of the dumb things she did in the name of Freeing Dinah. Victoria has her own character flaws (which are what make her interesting) but if she were in Taylor's place, she would absolutely not have made these choices. I'm not super interested in litigating the morality of those choices. There is no correct, objective answer as to whether they were right or wrong or justified or whatever. What's worth talking about is that Taylor thinks she has a firm moral code but actually just does what feels expedient, or what gives her more control, or solves the immediate problem faster, and tells herself that the collateral damage was justified in retrospect. By the way, lest someone conclude that this is a "Taylor sucks" screed, I think all of the above is what makes Taylor a great character.
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Jun 7, 2018 17:33
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