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spacetoaster posted:There's also a hopkins study that puts boxing well below sports that people consider "safe" for kids. Training in boxing is rad and safe for kids. Competition is not. The American Association of Pediatrics is strongly against adolescents competing in boxing. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 18:10
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean I dont want my kids to turn into pussies so I let them wail on each others heads with PVC pipe until they forget their birthdays but you guys go ahead and put em in dresses or whatever. There's a mom at they gym who's daughter (14) got dropped on her head so hard that she couldn't get people's names right for months. It was scary as poo poo. Mechafunkzilla posted:Training in boxing is rad and safe for kids. Competion is not. The American Association of Pediatrics is strongly against adolescents competing in boxing. Correct. But that relates to blows to the head. I don't know of any boxing association that allows little kids to compete. People get weird about sports that they aren't into/don't really know about. I had a mom clutching her pearls about my kids doing BJJ this weekend, but she brags about her son's football playing. spacetoaster fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 18:11
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spacetoaster posted:There's a mom at they gym who's daughter (14) got dropped on her head so hard that she couldn't get people's names right for months. It was scary as poo poo. This is the kind of thing that goes beyond age -- nobody should be getting dropped on their head in training, no matter how old they are! Be kind to your training partners, y'all.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:14
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Soccer's cool, sure. Really though, American football is uniquely designed to cause as much brain damage as possible. Let kids do literally anything else this side of boxing. Soccer might not be safe for kids either, actually.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:17
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spacetoaster posted:
Yeah concussion risk is basically why I went towards bjj over any other combat sport. I want to spar and also still know where my house is.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:17
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spacetoaster posted:Kids aren't getting hit in the head. You're really arguing semantics here.
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Sep 4, 2018 20:35
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I don’t care if my daughter is a world champion, I want her to have a self-defence toolkit by the time she’s a teenager, and that’ll include submissions. It’d be lovely of me as a parent to not give her those tools at the time of her life when she’s most likely to need them.
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Sep 4, 2018 20:37
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I don’t care if my daughter is a world champion, I want her to have a self-defence toolkit by the time she’s a teenager, and that’ll include submissions. It’d be lovely of me as a parent to not give her those tools at the time of her life when she’s most likely to need them. We're talking about competition, not training.
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Sep 4, 2018 20:42
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Soccer's cool, sure. Really though, American football is uniquely designed to cause as much brain damage as possible. Let kids do literally anything else this side of boxing. Odddzy posted:I'd like to give my kids a safe sport so that they avoid concussions early in life. I don't think anyone here would argue with that but hey. Mel Mudkiper posted:Lol come on dude Now, I was being a little bit of a  goon, but womens soccer has (well, this is a 10 year old study...) a higher rate of concussions then football: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2140075/ Youth Soccer overall has a high rate of brain trauma, as does hockey, baseball, basketball.... etc. You made a pretty generalized statement that borderline reads as "Football should be illegal for children" So, like what sports are ok? It's not that simple. I don't want to derail this thread but this is a complicated and nuanced issue, FOOTBALL EVIL is not correct. Or, if it is then a very large list of other sports are as well. quote:A double leg shot executed to completion results in a takedown and a dominant position, not a broken arm. You can drill good breakfalling into someone before they compete and it becomes muscle memory -- a kid getting a torn rotator cuff because he's trying to ride out a deep kimura until the round ends is something else. Just as well, a poor double or poorly trained recipient of such double could result in a injury. IDK what you are saying here. You trust teens to wrestle safely but not do BJJ safely?
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Sep 4, 2018 21:34
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All I know is that I watch most of the kids in the youth class and I swear to god, eliminating submissions (they learn like one, and the coach calls it "the secret move" only to be used in competition), these kids takedowns are like 10 times better than most of the adults.
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Sep 4, 2018 21:36
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spandexcajun posted:Just as well, a poor double or poorly trained recipient of such double could result in a injury. IDK what you are saying here. You trust teens to wrestle safely but not do BJJ safely? I don't think you quite get the nature and ease of the injuries you can get from a bad sub. Yeah, you can break your neck wrestling just like in bjj but it's way easier for a kid to break someones neck with a bad sub vs. a suplex Edit: I mean, submissions are designed to use the least force possible to put the most strain on the most vulnerable parts possible. It's legit designed to cause easy injury. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 21:43
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:All I know is that I watch most of the kids in the youth class and I swear to god, eliminating submissions (they learn like one, and the coach calls it "the secret move" only to be used in competition), these kids takedowns are like 10 times better than most of the adults. What do you mean I have to shoot a double? My knees hurt.
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Sep 4, 2018 21:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I don't think you quite get the nature and ease of the injuries you can get from a bad sub. Yeah, you can break your neck wrestling just like in bjj but it's way easier for a kid to break someones neck with a bad sub vs. a suplex Yeah, I'm all for children being limited in a competition scenario. I just feel like it a different thing if we are talking about freshmen in highschool. Doesn't anyone role with teenagers? I do all the time (and get subbed by one of them all the time, I swear he would be a purple belt if he did not just turn 15) and they can be trusted just as much as the adults. Hell anyone having done BJJ long enough knows some of the adults are suspect on being responsible with regards to injuring training partners.
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Sep 4, 2018 22:01
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spandexcajun posted:Yeah, I'm all for children being limited in a competition scenario. I just feel like it a different thing if we are talking about freshmen in highschool. Doesn't anyone role with teenagers? I do all the time (and get subbed by one of them all the time, I swear he would be a purple belt if he did not just turn 15) and they can be trusted just as much as the adults. Hell anyone having done BJJ long enough knows some of the adults are suspect on being responsible with regards to injuring training partners. I mean, ultimately all age restrictions are arbitrary to some extent. Sure there are gonna be adults who are more dangerous than some teens but there isnt a way to determine that easily for a tournament so ultimately I cannot really criticize the ban.
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Sep 4, 2018 22:06
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In my limited experience older married men have the most aggression in class, maybe it’s the weekend warrior mentality or an unhappy marriage at home
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Sep 4, 2018 22:10
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SHOAH NUFF posted:In my limited experience older married men have the most aggression in class, maybe it’s the weekend warrior mentality or an unhappy marriage at home And for everyone of those dudes I can put up a 20 something year old that is up for challenging them, who also has aggression issues of their own. Blame it on the testosterone/ego that gets in the way.
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Sep 4, 2018 22:14
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I don't think you quite get the nature and ease of the injuries you can get from a bad sub. Yeah, you can break your neck wrestling just like in bjj but it's way easier for a kid to break someones neck with a bad sub vs. a suplex I find that very difficult to believe. What submission grants even the possibility of a broken neck? A twister? A RNC turned neck crank that goes 180 degrees? My views are that 16 year olds should clearly compete with subs, I think its a bit crazy to think otherwise. Below that its perhaps a bit more complicated and depends on the kid and the circumstances and the coach etc. I'd have no problem with a 14 year old using subs in a competition, but maybe require some belt or amount of experience before hand. Sports come with injuries, its really the name of the game. Safety is something to be considered, but not I think as a restriction that supersedes all others. I wouldn't want to put a kid of mine in boxing. But if this hypothetical kid wanted to do it themselves I wouldn't stop them-- a dangerous sport is still better than playing Fortnite all day and getting fat. Athletic pursuits, including navigating the dangers that come with them, is an important part of growing up. Instilling these values early can lead to a much healthier life over all.
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Sep 4, 2018 22:52
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Yeah you're gonna have to cite an example or something, I've never even heard of a kid "breaking" their neck via bjj sub. Here is an idea: weigh the pros and cons and make a decision with/for YOUR kid and screw everybody else.
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Sep 4, 2018 23:22
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Count Roland posted:I find that very difficult to believe. What submission grants even the possibility of a broken neck? A twister? A RNC turned neck crank that goes 180 degrees? Mounted guillotines applied with extreme enthusiasm. Fat Man Choke when misapplied. RNC applied when opponent puts chin down*. Short/Long chokes applied when chin is down.* I've never heard of a kid getting broken to any of these, but there are subs where you can break your opponents neck if you really want. *depends if opponent sets his Jaw. If opponent does not, the jaw gets broken, if he does the neck will go. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 00:05
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spandexcajun posted:Really, like never? What sports should they be playing, girls soccer? I'm glad we could fit misogynistic comments into this discussion.
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Sep 5, 2018 01:45
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Defenestrategy posted:Mounted guillotines applied with extreme enthusiasm. Fat Man Choke when misapplied. RNC applied when opponent puts chin down*. Short/Long chokes applied when chin is down.* I've never heard of a kid getting broken to any of these, but there are subs where you can break your opponents neck if you really want. All of the submissions are designed to kill or maim your opponent, if you really want.
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Sep 5, 2018 02:56
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Mekchu posted:I'm glad we could fit misogynistic comments into this discussion. I'm glad you looked at the study I linked to that showed that women / girls soccer has a higher rate of concussions then football, but sure whatever, keep tilting at those windmills. It says more about you that the first thing you do is jump to accusations of sexism...
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Sep 5, 2018 03:18
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spandexcajun posted:I'm glad you looked at the study I linked to that showed that women / girls soccer has a higher rate of concussions then football, but sure whatever, keep tilting at those windmills. It says more about you that the first thing you do is jump to accusations of sexism... Except you didn't share any of that until well after your comment which, given its context, was pretty blatant in viewing women's soccer as being an "inferior" sport. But sure get upset at a contextless "lol womens soccer" remark being called out for being stupid I guess.
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Sep 5, 2018 03:26
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Defenestrategy posted:Mounted guillotines applied with extreme enthusiasm. Fat Man Choke when misapplied. RNC applied when opponent puts chin down*. Short/Long chokes applied when chin is down.* I've never heard of a kid getting broken to any of these, but there are subs where you can break your opponents neck if you really want. Sure, those are all possible, but can anyone find an example of a kid / teen getting there neck broken in BJJ, especially in a competition? Like, I'm sure if anything like that happened recently (in the last 5 years?) it would be all over the internet. I would bet that it would not be difficult to find stories of kids getting broken necks in football / wrestling in the same time period. I'm still not convinced that BJJ is so much more risky then other sports teens do regularly.
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Sep 5, 2018 03:27
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Mekchu posted:Except you didn't share any of that until well after your comment which, given its context, was pretty blatant in viewing women's soccer as being an "inferior" sport. It's only blatant to you. It's not stupid at all. Someone here is suggesting that football should be outright banned for kids and I am pointing out that it is perhaps not so obvious. Most people would assume soccer (women's or men's) is much safer with regards to head injury compared to football and it turns out this is not really the case. I mentioned women soccer specifically because it was mentioned in the study I linked to. Was it as lovely internet baiting technique? Sure, but nothing sexist about it. Just like it's not clear that children should never go after subs in competition, specifically at the teen level. But yeah, good job calling me out  you made the world a better place.
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Sep 5, 2018 03:32
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spandexcajun posted:Sure, those are all possible, but can anyone find an example of a kid / teen getting there neck broken in BJJ, especially in a competition? Like, I'm sure if anything like that happened recently (in the last 5 years?) it would be all over the internet. I would bet that it would not be difficult to find stories of kids getting broken necks in football / wrestling in the same time period. I'm still not convinced that BJJ is so much more risky then other sports teens do regularly. That wasn't the original question/statement spacetoaster posted:I don't know how many of you have kids doing bjj, but the last tournament my kids were at (fuji I believe) the refs were stopping fights and declaring winners before anyone even had a chance to lock in a sub, or resist a sub. To which I opined, that yo maybe kids shouldn't be throwing subs anyway in competiton and an itchy referee in a doesn't matter division is probably fine. To be frank I think everyone is talking past everyone else at this point. Unless ya'll really wanna talk about foo' ball Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 03:34
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How about this: Can I get a basic rundown of straight ankle lock finishing positions? At my gym the leg game is pretty much every man for himself, at my judo club it's so effective it's not even fair, even just for passing. Most of the video stuff I've seen is either focused on the finer points of the normal ashi lock, or focus on heel hooks. I'm familiar with the normal ashi version, the double outside ashi version. I'd like to know more about the outside sankaku and 50/50 positions, and I have a vague notion of how to do a belly-down lock but lack a lot of the details. Texas cloverleaf version is pretty much a guarantee finish for me but I don't think I'd try it in a tournament, I'd probably avoid inside sankaku entirely if I can help it.
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Sep 5, 2018 04:00
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Defenestrategy posted:That wasn't the original question/statement This is a good conversation to have. I was initially trying to relate my son's experience in his first tournament, and how he was disappointed to forfeit a match to what he thought was nothing, a not very well locked in armbar. We were not expecting that level of caution in his division so it was surprising / disappointing. But now we know better, also he does not do BJJ anymore (not because of this incident) so it does not matter. It's all good that kids might not need to be slamming on subs in comp. I am of the opinion that they should be allowed at a certain age level, something akin to middle school when they would be allowed / trusted to do other contact sports, like wrestling and football. IDK, (limited) subs from 13 - 16? I'm pretty sure this is what the two local tournament do for kid here in Colorado. They just error'ed on the side of caution a lot when my son did his comp. Now let's hear thoughts on teenager heelhooks  I'm happy to talk poo poo about / defend youth football but this thread is not the place, even though football and combat sports have very much in common. Hell, football is a combat sport.
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Sep 5, 2018 04:28
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"Hell, football is a combat sport." Is probably the most hilarious thing I've heard all week.
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Sep 5, 2018 04:35
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Ice hockey is the one true combat sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmVG31m6lMU
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Sep 5, 2018 05:12
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As someone who played football including small college football, I have to say that I've suffered more concussions in BJJ. Also, the risk for kids in pop warner is not very great. They simply can't generate much energy. The difference in BJJ subs from some of these other sports is that BJJ subs are purposely designed to cause injury when your finishing mechanics are good. In comparison even tackles in football have rules intended to mitigate risk of injury which have continue to evolve. Look at tackles in the 70s. Players would spear with the top of their helmets under the chin/facemask of their opponents when hitting. That's how guys like Jack Tatum would knock guys out on the field. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1tHjPt2TAE In 1976 spearing was banned and tackling rules continue to focus on making it safer. Young kids in competitive situations lack judgment and there are BJJ versions of sports dads that will encourage kids to crank subs or win at all costs. We need rules and refs to protect under 14 year old kids. EDIT: apologies for continuing this conversation.... Let's talk about how to finish straight ankle locks. Yuns fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 05:42
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I was caught in a leglock last night rolling with a white belt who didn't know our gym wasn't cool with them and was able to basically prevent it via stalling and staying calm while the coach watched on fir a bit before telling him to stop. The guy had a "ah poo poo I hosed up" look on his face the rest of the time. I feel like he may have a judo background or something but cant tell. He was wearing a KJJF (Korea Ju Jitsu Fed) branded gi and knew a lot of stuff and escapes but he's a white belt and is new to our gym and his English isn't so great and I have probably worse korean.  Also total aside: A rsndom thing I encountered here is that they call Americanas a Kimura as well as the regular Kimura. Is that a thing in other places or just a naming convention unique here? I know in the US we call it Americana and just assumed everywhere did as well. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 06:29
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I'll drop it here, but the risk in football isn't necessarily full blown concussions, it's repetitive microtrauma, particularly for linemen.
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Sep 5, 2018 07:09
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The walkback by the misogynistic dude posting women's soccer as a pejorative was funny. rear end-head.
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Sep 5, 2018 08:23
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Can we get back to grappling discussion please? The next Quintet is going to be in Vegas in October, same weekend as the Khabib/Conor fight. Should be interesting.
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Sep 5, 2018 08:32
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I recently switched from lunch classes to dawn classes, and the dawn crew suck. It never occured to me that a gym could have a massive skill disparity between time slots. The night crew are decent, the lunch crew are savages. It was good for my ego to tap a big brown belt, I guess, but he should’ve been a 1 stripe purple.
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Sep 5, 2018 08:42
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JaySB posted:Can we get back to grappling discussion please? The lineups for this are sick. 10th planet coming back against the Polaris team which now includes Gregor Gracie, Dan Strauss, Marcin Held, Craig Jones, and Shaolin. Sakuraba is murdering it with the format and the cards for Quintet. 02-6611-0142-1 posted:I recently switched from lunch classes to dawn classes, and the dawn crew suck. It never occured to me that a gym could have a massive skill disparity between time slots. The night crew are decent, the lunch crew are My school had a seminar a few months back and there was some uproarious laughter when two of the most regular guys for night and morning classes respectively who have been training for 4-5 years each at the school introduced themselves both thinking that the other was a visitor. butros fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 11:34
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Quintet is easily the most fun grappling event series I've seen. Purely based off the KOTH style format.
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Sep 5, 2018 13:12
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Mekchu posted:I was caught in a leglock last night rolling with a white belt who didn't know our gym wasn't cool with them and was able to basically prevent it via stalling and staying calm while the coach watched on fir a bit before telling him to stop. The guy had a "ah poo poo I hosed up" look on his face the rest of the time. I feel like he may have a judo background or something but cant tell. He was wearing a KJJF (Korea Ju Jitsu Fed) branded gi and knew a lot of stuff and escapes but he's a white belt and is new to our gym and his English isn't so great and I have probably worse korean. I don't think it's a judo thing as any kind of joint manipulation outside of armlocks is super forbidden in judo and it has been for over 100 years. The Kimura-Americana thing is because judo uses the same name (Ude Garami) for both of those so some people get confused about it.
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Sep 5, 2018 13:41
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I didn't mean it as "this guy knows judo" just as a "this guy knows some stuff and it was pretty clear", he sort of panicked into the leg submission due to the position. Sorry for the confusion. Also cool, that makes sense re: kimura-americana.
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Sep 5, 2018 13:43
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