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Tree Goat posted:wasn't there a recent post in this very subforum where somebody was lamenting that they never learned in english class that the narrator is sometimes a person with whom you're not always supposed to agree and sympathize? there was, and multiple people were shocked at the idea you could figure out the concept without being told about it. OscarDiggs posted:As an aside, where DID you learn these things? I never went to university so if we're supposed to learn these little rules there I'm way out of luck. I'm pretty sure it was never covered at secondary school either.
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Sep 18, 2018 05:31
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Just loving kill me.
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Sep 18, 2018 10:58
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Tree Goat posted:wasn't there a recent post in this very subforum where somebody was lamenting that they never learned in english class that the narrator is sometimes a person with whom you're not always supposed to agree and sympathize? Hi there! One of them was me. Thanks again A human heart for helping me learn that, by the by.
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Sep 18, 2018 14:33
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I mean to be fair there are definitely novelists who try to make disagreeable things sympathetic in a misguided sort of everyman masculinity. Roth, Ford, and Updike come to mind. Like, it feels insincere to look at Rabbit and go "oh, who says you are supposed to agree with the protagonist"
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Sep 18, 2018 15:35
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean to be fair there are definitely novelists who try to make disagreeable things sympathetic in a misguided sort of everyman masculinity. Roth, Ford, and Updike come to mind. Like, it feels insincere to look at Rabbit and go "oh, who says you are supposed to agree with the protagonist" i think there's some combination of narratorial reliability, sympathy, and perspective-taking/theory of mind that is getting conflated here also i am sorry to keep linking new yorker articles but this one came to mind: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/scourge-relatability
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Sep 18, 2018 17:22
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Tree Goat posted:i think there's some combination of narratorial reliability, sympathy, and perspective-taking/theory of mind that is getting conflated here Yeah, I definitely would argue against saying the protagonist has to be "relatable" or "likeable", but I still feel like, as a reader, I can sense a tangible difference between a character who is meant to be judged, a character who is meant to be observed, and a character who is meant to be sympathized with. Like, even though Humbert Humbert is the narrator of his own story, no one would think of him sympathetically even though the sum totality of the story is from his own deeply biased perspective. I also think of Disgrace by Coatzee, where, again, the character is portrayed through internal narration and he is also a selfish piece of poo poo, but we are equally given room to judge him. For some reason other characters like Rabbit or Frank Bascombe feel far more sympathetically portrayed even though the narration is still internal. I wish I could put my finger on it exactly.
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Sep 18, 2018 17:35
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There's an entire caste of pseudo-intellectuals, most of them are incredibly successful op-ed writers, who claim to know what Authenticity is, and it just happens to invariably be something horribly poo poo. Our cultural climate actively rewards that kind of thing Like you couldn't publish Ulysses today, in no small part because no publisher is willing to grant the 'average person' the richness of inner life that Joyce grants his characters.
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Sep 18, 2018 23:52
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recommendations for books - poetry, fiction, doesn’t matter - with very (for lack of a better term) “violent” prose? not in the literal Cormac McCarthy sense; rather in the sense of language that is extremely vivid and shocking and breaks free of convention
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Sep 19, 2018 07:39
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Finnegans Wake
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Sep 19, 2018 07:51
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Darker with the Lights on by David Hayden actually idk if that qualifies but it's unconventional and is written with a certain clarity that I thoroughly enjoyed. not sure if it's shocking though Lex Neville fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 09:02
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Finnegans Wake this is the real answer but there's always Celine and Jelinek also Tarantula by Nobel prize winner Robert Zimmerman
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Sep 19, 2018 09:31
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read jelinek or bernhard
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Sep 19, 2018 10:40
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Criminal Minded posted:recommendations for books - poetry, fiction, doesn’t matter - with very (for lack of a better term) “violent” prose? not in the literal Cormac McCarthy sense; rather in the sense of language that is extremely vivid and shocking and breaks free of convention Frederick Seidel's poetry.
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Sep 19, 2018 12:08
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Criminal Minded posted:recommendations for books - poetry, fiction, doesn’t matter - with very (for lack of a better term) “violent” prose? not in the literal Cormac McCarthy sense; rather in the sense of language that is extremely vivid and shocking and breaks free of convention Les fleurs du mal.
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Sep 19, 2018 13:13
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I just remembered Ron Silliman's Tjanting, which I ran into at Half Price once and didn't buy because I'm a goddamn moron. Absolutely what Criminal Minded is looking for. The movement that Silliman was part of probably warrants a blanket recommendation as well. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 14:21
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Criminal Minded posted:recommendations for books - poetry, fiction, doesn’t matter - with very (for lack of a better term) “violent” prose? not in the literal Cormac McCarthy sense; rather in the sense of language that is extremely vivid and shocking and breaks free of convention Clarice Lispector's The Passion According to G.H. may be for you
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Sep 19, 2018 20:12
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Oh yeah, Lispector is a good choice
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Sep 19, 2018 21:13
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I just remembered Ron Silliman's Tjanting, which I ran into at Half Price once and didn't buy because I'm a goddamn moron. Absolutely what Criminal Minded is looking for. ha I actually have The Age of Huts at the top of my to-read pile right now 
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Sep 20, 2018 19:46
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quote:On another occasion, Abby goes to Will to talk about her school thesis paper, and she wants to make it on the unreliable narrator, and how life is the ultimate unreliable narrator because of how tricky and surprising it can be.
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Sep 21, 2018 17:02
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hahahaha
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Sep 21, 2018 17:10
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Wikipedia page for Life Itself (2018) posted:It received negative reviews from critics, who called it "simultaneously overwrought and underwhelming". Sounds about right.
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Sep 21, 2018 17:17
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as soon as I saw the reviews I have been waiting for someone to post a synopsis and it turned out to be as insipid and maudlin as I dared hope but yeah the second I saw that I had to share it with someone
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Sep 21, 2018 17:19
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genious
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Sep 21, 2018 21:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Sounds about right. Lmao
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Sep 21, 2018 23:56
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im at the end of that awful mess on the w/e the italian book by gadda and it's really good they are interviewing prostitutes and i get why people say it's dense but like, the denseness is all world building or w/e that if it was some warhammer 40k book nerds would drool all over but it's about italy just as fascism starts taking root ok well bye
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Sep 22, 2018 06:24
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im in the middle of my comps list and i havent had time to read for pleasure in weeks and its Depressing Me
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Sep 22, 2018 07:04
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I'm in London and buying books again send help
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Sep 22, 2018 10:03
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“This War and Peace thing? it’s pretty good, but Tolstoy spends way too many words on world building and he has these self-inserts that doesn’t add to the plot”
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Sep 22, 2018 10:43
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I know that wasn’t your angle at all, I just felt like posting it and now I feel bad
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Sep 22, 2018 10:44
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The magic system in Finnegans Wake is so OP it resets the world
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Sep 22, 2018 10:47
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i've never been able to get into tolstoy even though i love russian lit, i don't know what it is. when i was in my late teens/early 20s i read a bunch of dostoevsky, bulgakov, solzhenitzyn and checkov and i got a few short stories into tolstoy but there was one about a woman who's dad dies and then she marries her dad's friend who comes around a lot and that put the project on a grinding halt. maybe it's time to try again with one of his real books.
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Sep 22, 2018 11:46
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It's Chekhov. "Kh" is the Russian H: Che Hof, not Check Off
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Sep 22, 2018 14:09
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4exob
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Sep 22, 2018 17:38
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Ras Het posted:It's Chekhov. "Kh" is the Russian H: Che Hof, not Check Off prosit 
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Sep 22, 2018 22:34
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Ras Het posted:It's Chekhov. "Kh" is the Russian H: Che Hof, not Check Off Those are equally wrong, it's a [x]
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Sep 23, 2018 11:11
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Yeah, there really isn't a "Russian H". "Х" ("Kh") and "Г" ("G") are both used as substitutes in loanwords and transliterations, but that phoneme isn't part of the language.
Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 11:15
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What a jakhoff
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Sep 23, 2018 11:46
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Rudъ.
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Sep 23, 2018 12:39
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Yeah, there really isn't a "Russian H". "Х" ("Kh") and "Г" ("G") are both used as substitutes in loanwords and transliterations, but that phoneme isn't part of the language. I know all of this, I just want to stop hearing about Nikita Krooshchev
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Sep 23, 2018 13:24
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anton check off wrote some very nice stories. i'm a big fan of lady with a lap dog, ward no. 6, and peasant wives.
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Sep 23, 2018 13:32
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