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Rime posted:Man, it's not even the carbon footprint of having a child which gets me, that's just too abstract for my simple working mans brain. It's the idea that I'd be bringing a child into the world despite fully knowing that they're probably going to end up living out The Road by their late teens / mid-20's, and good lord I do not want that weight on my conscience. Making the conscious, informed decision to procreate is the height of hubris, and makes me feel nothing but visceral contempt.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:08
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Rime posted:Man, it's not even the carbon footprint of having a child which gets me, that's just too abstract for my simple working mans brain. It's the idea that I'd be bringing a child into the world despite fully knowing that they're probably going to end up living out The Road by their late teens / mid-20's, and good lord I do not want that weight on my conscience.  When I picture having a child, I cannot help but think of in 20 years that same child lying in the middle of a ditch after being brutalized by brigands and using their last breath to scream their hatred for me as they drown in their own blood.Oh hey, more depressing headlines in unrelated outlets: https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/28/we-all-lose-year-in-review/ AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 20:11
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AceOfFlames posted:When I picture having a child, I cannot help but think of in 20 years that same child lying in the middle of a ditch after being brutalized by brigands and using their last breath to scream their hatred for me as they drown in their own blood. They'd actually be, crying and in pain, deliriously asking for your help.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:13
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See the problem is you all are imagining your progeny as some sad-rear end extra in a Mad Max movie. Someone's gotta be the star.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:13
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davebo posted:See the problem is you all are imagining your progeny as some sad-rear end extra in a Mad Max movie. Someone's gotta be the star. Why does that star have to specifically be the fruit of your loins, rather than an existing soul lifted up from a terrible fate?
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Dec 28, 2018 20:15
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That's a nice piece, but the last paragraph made me a little bit mad. quote:And I have to admit: I am also excited for everything that Rocca and her sisters and brothers will see and do. Yes, she will hit her child-rearing years around 2050, when we could have climate refugees in the many tens of millions; and, yes, she will be entering old age at the end of the century, the end-stage bookmark on all of our very bleak projections for warming. In between, she will watch the world doing battle with a genuinely existential threat, and the people of her generation making a future for themselves, and the generations they bring into being, on this planet. And she won’t just be watching it, she will be living it — quite literally the greatest story ever told. It may well bring a happy ending. OK, guy.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:15
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Cognitive dissonance.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:17
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Debate & Discussion: Check The Stickied Charity Thread › Climate Change: I have never, and will never, joined or formed an pro-natalist org
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Dec 28, 2018 20:19
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How are u posted:OK, guy. I loving hate this mentality. I don't WANT an "exciting life". My childhood dream was to change the world and help people but only while I still thought it was possible to do so inside an airconditioned ivory tower and didn't know anything about economic and political realities. I want to have a dull rear end life. I want to wake up every day, do some easily definable task that someone has taught me how to do well, and get paid to do it. Paid just enough so I don't have any stress in my life. I don't want to fight anyone, command anyone, or be responsible for anyone or anything. Over and over until the day I die. Anyone who believes utter chaos and collapse will be "interesting" should be forced to fight a tiger with a butter knife.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:21
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AceOfFlames posted:
But enough about your relationship with your father.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:23
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How are u posted:That's a nice piece, but the last paragraph made me a little bit mad. Yeah that almost seems like a failure of nerve, like the ending of Huckleberry Finn.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:28
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Conspiratiorist posted:Why does that star have to specifically be the fruit of your loins, rather than an existing soul lifted up from a terrible fate? Hey I'm not arguing for people who don't want to have kids to suddenly have them, I'm just saying that if you do have one or two kids then there still exists hope that their lives will be worth living even if they struggle to survive more than we have (so far.) Generations before us met untimely ends, as are tons of people today, and many in the future, but who here is going to assign metrics to what age you have to reach before dying how painfully and alone in order to have made your life to that point worthwhile? Seems pretty arbitrary as it's entirely dependent on the person's life making the decision. As a white male middle class American my life has been better than most on the planet and even with the horrible future in store for Earth I have reason to believe my son's will be better than average also assuming he's healthy. If my situation were worse I might think differently. Now, does that mean white Americans with a decent standard of living have more "right" to offspring than poor brown people in areas that will be greatly impacted sooner by climate change? I have no idea. That'd be horrible if people thought that way, but how do I know if I'd think differently if I had been raised dirt poor on some South Pacific island that I had a feeling wouldn't exist in twenty years? I think we as a species should actively be discouraging population growth but we're gonna need to help out those in need moving forward. I don't deny that the future will entail millions of climate refugees dying though, and I recognize that as a selfish human my survival instinct prioritizes my own life and my childs' over theirs.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:28
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This isn't directly related to babychat but I think it's really important to lay out all of the different ways that people can contribute to lowering emissions, sequestering emissions, and/or adapting to climate change. They may be small, but IMO it's important for everyone's mental health to believe that they are doing something that's within their power. Not only that, but there are so many ways that helping the climate, even at an individual level, also benefits you and your community in terms of health, money savings, and other co-benefits. 1. Individual/household actions This is the stuff that everyone in this thread probably already knows. Reduce your energy usage in any way that is appropriate to your situation. Bike and take public transport, live somewhere insulated, put up solar panels if you're able to do so, reduce your usage of lights and appliances, use reusable whatever instead of disposable whatever, shop at thrift stores. Save water, since that also saves energy. Plant native vegetation. And yes, not having babies falls into this category as well. 2. Education and advocacy Tell your neighbors, friends, and coworkers what you're doing and why. Spread the word and maybe they will change their habits too. Use your job or any other formal or informal position you hold and do what you can within the scope of that position. If you're a teacher, teach this in your classes and share climate education tools with other teachers. (The thing about climate change is that it touches just about every academic subject and can be tailored to any level.) If you work for a business, see if climate change is on the radar of corporate social responsibility, or create a green club and advocate for incentives to take transit to work or whatever. If you're an artist or musician or writer, use your medium as a way to advocate. I truly believe that everyone can play a role. If you are able, donate your money or your time to organizations that do good work. (Not necessarily environmental work, but stuff like e.g. educating and empowering women helps in other ways!) 3. Political action Vote for leftists and environmentalists at every political level. Show up to community meetings and advocate for dense housing, public transit, walkable communities, and green infrastructure. Go to local Democratic and other political clubs so you know you're not alone and can raise your concerns. Issues that start at the grassroots can make their way to the top. No, none of this is overthrowing capitalism and shutting down fossil fuel companies and turning global emissions to zero overnight. But combating climate change is a massive effort that will take everyone doing what they can - and these areas are great places to start.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:29
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davebo posted:there still exists hope No hope did not exist in the first place.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:31
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davebo posted:Hey I'm not arguing for people who don't want to have kids to suddenly have them, I'm just saying that if you do have one or two kids then there still exists hope that their lives will be worth living even if they struggle to survive more than we have (so far.) Generations before us met untimely ends, as are tons of people today, and many in the future, but who here is going to assign metrics to what age you have to reach before dying how painfully and alone in order to have made your life to that point worthwhile? Seems pretty arbitrary as it's entirely dependent on the person's life making the decision. As a white male middle class American my life has been better than most on the planet and even with the horrible future in store for Earth I have reason to believe my son's will be better than average also assuming he's healthy. If my situation were worse I might think differently. This attitude is gross and is the reason we're in this mess at all, but at least you own it. Your happiness matters, gently caress everybody else (including, ironically, your future child).
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Dec 28, 2018 20:32
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You dodged the question: why are you procreating instead of adopting? Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 20:36
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Conspiratiorist posted:You dodged the question: why are you procreating instead of adopting? Feels good man.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:40
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Conspiratiorist posted:You dodged the question: why are you procreating instead of adopting? Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were implying with the fruit of your loins bit. We also looked into adoption as that was my initial preference but my wife wanted to try to have a kid first. I kind of view having kids like carbon cap and trade so this baby will be her one baby credit. If she or I want a second then she knows we'll have to adopt as I choose not to use my baby credit. People like the octomom should be forced to purchase baby credits from non-baby-havers or otherwise murder babies to replace them. FYI: anyone looking to adopt, be prepared to spend about 50k on the process.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:46
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I don’t have children. Been married, but we decided not have children. This was decades ago. We both felt it would be irresponsible of us for a variety of reasons. I don’t think it necessarily irresponsible for everyone though and I find I have some compassion in the matter. We are hard wired for it. This whole place is patterns patterning. The autopoesis of reproduction is built into everything more or less. For those asking why have children, obviously I don’t really know. One thing that seems likely is that it is a special category of love. Adoption could satisfy that, it seems to me, though I don’t particularly care for the metaphor of lifting up. I also think an odd thing. Even if I am convinced of Mad Max I do not think it is worth living into that scenario. I feel similarly about scenarios of free market and technological miracles saving us. Yes, be aware and open eyed about the possibilities or even probabilities. So I dunno, if right about apocalypse then it won’t matter greatly how we live, one way or another in terms of humans. Grossly irresponsible to other life forms of course. I therefore organize my attention around a future with the possibility of radical emergence and transformation. I think some people choose to fiddle while Rome burns with this same realization. Others might choose false narratives like "survival of the fittest". There are a lot of narratives being lived. I work to organize my life in ways that correlate with bringing about a culture of emergence and transformation, rather than with Mad Max world. Maybe I fail. Probably I fail. The tension between that imagined future and an understanding of our current condition reveals a way, when there is a way available. Without staying present to that tension I will be unable to perceive a way when it is present. I will not be able detect or align with the weak signals and emergence suppressed by the dominant paradigm. Without this I might drift to imagining necessities of force and violence, rather than living considerations of love, kindness and compassion.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:55
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davebo posted:Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were implying with the fruit of your loins bit. We also looked into adoption as that was my initial preference but my wife wanted to try to have a kid first. I kind of view having kids like carbon cap and trade so this baby will be her one baby credit. If she or I want a second then she knows we'll have to adopt as I choose not to use my baby credit. People like the octomom should be forced to purchase baby credits from non-baby-havers or otherwise murder babies to replace them. So you caved in and enabled, okay.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:59
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davebo posted:Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were implying with the fruit of your loins bit. We also looked into adoption as that was my initial preference but my wife wanted to try to have a kid first. I kind of view having kids like carbon cap and trade so this baby will be her one baby credit. If she or I want a second then she knows we'll have to adopt as I choose not to use my baby credit. People like the octomom should be forced to purchase baby credits from non-baby-havers or otherwise murder babies to replace them. Thanks for finally giving the thread a working example as to why carbon taxes are loving pointless and will achieve nothing, at least.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:01
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davebo posted:Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were implying with the fruit of your loins bit. We also looked into adoption as that was my initial preference but my wife wanted to try to have a kid first. I kind of view having kids like carbon cap and trade so this baby will be her one baby credit. If she or I want a second then she knows we'll have to adopt as I choose not to use my baby credit. People like the octomom should be forced to purchase baby credits from non-baby-havers or otherwise murder babies to replace them. You're going to spend a lot more on your kid in the long run and if adopting's toooooooo expensive then don't have a loving kid. Actually, tell your wife to gently caress off and don't have a kid. Y'all some selfish motherfuckers.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:14
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DrNutt posted:You're going to spend a lot more on your kid in the long run and if adopting's toooooooo expensive then don't have a loving kid. Actually, tell your wife to gently caress off and don't have a kid. Y'all some selfish motherfuckers. How much do you think raising a kid costs?
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Dec 28, 2018 21:21
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For every child you don’t have I’ll have three.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:22
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So only the wealthy should have kids? Or no one should have kids and we just go full Children of Men? I'm not sure what the thread's goal is here. I do appreciate the shaming because as I said shame is a great motivator. It definitely keeps me in check and mindful of my carbon footprint on a daily basis. Perhaps not as great a motivator as self-righteousness but I'll leave that to folks far greater than I. I love and appreciate all of you making the sacrifice to have zero kids. You're all doing exactly one human's worth of damage less than I am. Just as I'm doing 0.8 kids less damage than the national birthrate. DrNutt posted:Actually, tell your wife to gently caress off and don't have a kid. Geez, it's bad enough the future is full of heat and death, you're trying to eliminate relationships too? What the hell are humans even supposed to exist for? You all were aghast at the idea of raising a kid whose life will involve more hardship than our generation, and now you're stacking on a life of solitude to it?
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Dec 28, 2018 21:30
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davebo posted:So only the wealthy should have kids? Or no one should have kids and we just go full Children of Men? I'm not sure what the thread's goal is here. I do appreciate the shaming because as I said shame is a great motivator. It definitely keeps me in check and mindful of my carbon footprint on a daily basis. Perhaps not as great a motivator as self-righteousness but I'll leave that to folks far greater than I. I love and appreciate all of you making the sacrifice to have zero kids. You're all doing exactly one human's worth of damage less than I am. Just as I'm doing 0.8 kids less damage than the national birthrate. Your "life of solitude" would still have MUCH less suffering than that of the child you insist on conceiving to avoid it.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:33
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davebo posted:Geez, it's bad enough the future is full of heat and death, you're trying to eliminate relationships too? What the hell are humans even supposed to exist for? You all were aghast at the idea of raising a kid whose life will involve more hardship than our generation, and now you're stacking on a life of solitude to it? Everything that exists is a consequence without a purpose.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:34
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davebo posted:So only the wealthy should have kids? Or no one should have kids and we just go full Children of Men? I'm not sure what the thread's goal is here. I do appreciate the shaming because as I said shame is a great motivator. It definitely keeps me in check and mindful of my carbon footprint on a daily basis. Perhaps not as great a motivator as self-righteousness but I'll leave that to folks far greater than I. I love and appreciate all of you making the sacrifice to have zero kids. You're all doing exactly one human's worth of damage less than I am. Just as I'm doing 0.8 kids less damage than the national birthrate. You can worry about the potential threat of anti-natalism leading to human extinction when we're actually looking at long-term negative global population growth, rather than as efforts to curb an existing and extremely dangerous trend.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:37
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Looking at the paper that quantifies CO2 per kid, the obvious solution when having children is to move to Bangladesh. 
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Dec 28, 2018 21:40
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Conspiratiorist posted:You can worry about the potential threat of anti-natalism leading to human extinction when we're actually looking at long-term negative global population growth, rather than as efforts to curb an existing and extremely dangerous trend. Yes! And that is why I'm fully on board with everyone making GBS threads on baby-havers. Because you all know full well you're not actually eliminating babies from the planet. At best you may convince a couple who otherwise would have had two kids to have one kid. You succeeded and I am the result!
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Dec 28, 2018 21:41
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You won’t earn their approval until you perma-seal yourself in a chamber together with organic materials equalling your accumulated carbon foot print. Maybe take a few toddlers with you just to be on the safe side.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:47
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Fox Cunning posted:You won’t earn their approval until you perma-seal yourself in a chamber together with organic materials equalling your accumulated carbon foot print. Maybe take a few toddlers with you just to be on the safe side. drat, too slow. But yeah, I'm not bothered by the issue that my kid is probably not going to have a car to jump into and drive whenever they want. Or that they can't have fresh berries unless they build a greenhouse or whatever. It's going to *suck*, massively, and we'll get our collective butts in gear way too late for a lot of things, but I suspect that we'll have a modern civilization built around a much more frugal mindset just yet. I will weep at the first nuclear exchange, but I won't give up on everything if I'm not in the blast zone.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:54
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How are u posted:And I have to admit: I am also excited for everything that Rocca and her sisters and brothers will see and do. Yes, she will hit her child-rearing years around 2050, when we could have climate refugees in the many tens of millions; and, yes, she will be entering old age at the end of the century, the end-stage bookmark on all of our very bleak projections for warming. In between, she will watch the world doing battle with a genuinely existential threat, and the people of her generation making a future for themselves, and the generations they bring into being, on this planet. And she won’t just be watching it, she will be living it — quite literally the greatest story ever told. It may well bring a happy ending. quote:
May our children live in interesting times
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Dec 28, 2018 21:56
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Admiral Ray posted:How much do you think raising a kid costs? Significantly more than 50,000 dollars, I assure you. davebo posted:Geez, it's bad enough the future is full of heat and death, you're trying to eliminate relationships too? What the hell are humans even supposed to exist for? You all were aghast at the idea of raising a kid whose life will involve more hardship than our generation, and now you're stacking on a life of solitude to it? My partner and I have had our ups and downs but we are both 100% on board with not having children. I'm sorry to be so brusque and I suppose I am glad you aren't having more. We're all in this together.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:58
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in all honesty, thanos did nothing wrong
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Dec 28, 2018 22:00
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DrNutt posted:Significantly more than 50,000 dollars, I assure you. Yeah but how much do you think it costs? Because when I've looked it up it's around $200,000 (including birth) until 18 years old, so admonishing someone for balking at a $50,000 adoption process because of the overall cost of raising a child seems a bit silly.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:03
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The Dipshit posted:drat, too slow. But yeah, I'm not bothered by the issue that my kid is probably not going to have a car to jump into and drive whenever they want. Or that they can't have fresh berries unless they build a greenhouse or whatever. It's going to *suck*, massively, and we'll get our collective butts in gear way too late for a lot of things, but I suspect that we'll have a modern civilization built around a much more frugal mindset just yet. Well thank you for demonstrating for the thread why there is little hope of meaningful change arising from the general population, at least. It's true, the problems these children will have are a lack of access to cars and berries rather than, you know, the collapse of agriculture or the end of fresh drinking water (and hydro power). Humans really are poo poo understanding cascading failures, aren't they.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:05
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I don't remember how I got here but this is the most hilarious thread I've ever seen on the entire internet. Holy crap I'm doing a big lol. Is this like a 4chan thread where everyone is just semi ironic posting their darkest thoughts or are you guys actually dead serious about this stuff
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Dec 28, 2018 22:06
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Is this like a 4chan thread where everyone is just semi ironic posting their darkest thoughts or are you guys actually dead serious about this stuff I'd love to know what are your thoughts about climate change. Like, I'd really want to know why you feel so positive about the situation if you think this is a semi ironic thread.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:10
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How are u posted:The only thing that individuals can do right now that will make a difference is 1) be American citizens
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Dec 28, 2018 22:12
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