The Misc. Shoujo, Josei, & Romance Thread: Don't think straight, think gay.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > The Misc. Shoujo, Josei, & Romance Thread: Don't think straight, think gay.

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DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

# ? Jan 9, 2019 15:34

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# ? May 24, 2024 07:13

DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

https://twitter.com/i/moments/879383579536404480 looks like it's a multi couple anthology kind of thing

DisDisDis fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jan 9, 2019

# ? Jan 9, 2019 16:42

Cuntellectual: Aug 6, 2010

I have now gone through everything on mangadex tagged drama/romance and without the yaoi/shounen ai tags,

I don't know if Mangadex just has less stuff than batoto, or if I've just gotten more refined taste than when I was first scouring batoto, but there doesn't seem to be as much as I'd remembered from there.

# ? Jan 9, 2019 21:04

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Cuntellectual posted:

I have now gone through everything on mangadex tagged drama/romance and without the yaoi/shounen ai tags,

I don't know if Mangadex just has less stuff than batoto, or if I've just gotten more refined taste than when I was first scouring batoto, but there doesn't seem to be as much as I'd remembered from there.

Mangadex doesn't include everything that was on Batoto because several groups have had their stuff taken off Mangadex for...I have no idea why. Maybe because they host porn? Either way, not all groups that were okay with Batoto are okay with Mangadex.

# ? Jan 9, 2019 21:57

SwissArmyDruid: Feb 14, 2014; by sebmojo

Captain Invictus posted:

yep, gonna need a source on that

Muramata-san's Secret, but what the rest of them said about it being porn, so, no direct link.

# ? Jan 9, 2019 22:09

Alder: Sep 24, 2013

Cuntellectual posted:

I have now gone through everything on mangadex tagged drama/romance and without the yaoi/shounen ai tags,

I don't know if Mangadex just has less stuff than batoto, or if I've just gotten more refined taste than when I was first scouring batoto, but there doesn't seem to be as much as I'd remembered from there.

how long did it take?

Red Hood

# ? Jan 9, 2019 22:50

Everything Burrito: Jun 2, 2011; I Failed At Anime 2022

a good ending :3:

# ? Jan 10, 2019 00:09

Cuntellectual: Aug 6, 2010

Mors Rattus posted:

Mangadex doesn't include everything that was on Batoto because several groups have had their stuff taken off Mangadex for...I have no idea why. Maybe because they host porn? Either way, not all groups that were okay with Batoto are okay with Mangadex.

That's really annoying!

Alder posted:

how long did it take?

Red Hood

like 20-30 minutes, I think?

# ? Jan 10, 2019 00:37

chumbler: Mar 28, 2010

I'm going to die and this manga will be the one that kills me, especially after today's updates.

https://mangadex.org/title/33396/i-m-nearly-30-but-this-is-my-first-love

# ? Jan 10, 2019 05:12

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

me on the left

https://mangadex.org/chapter/425682/1

Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Jan 10, 2019

# ? Jan 10, 2019 06:36

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Bittersweet Con Panna

# ? Jan 10, 2019 14:35

Nate RFB: Jan 17, 2005; Clapping Larry

New Volume of March Comes Like a Lion

Kind of a slow volume at first but boy does it pick up after a point. Also some interesting cameos that I did not expect at all that was very :3:

# ? Jan 10, 2019 18:49

Schubalts: Nov 26, 2007; People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.

Cool Girlfriend got more chapters. https://mangadex.org/chapter/516981

# ? Jan 10, 2019 22:45

Spiritus Nox: Sep 2, 2011

Been reading Tsurezure Biyori after Seven Seas licensed it and put it on my radar. It's nice and sweet, even if it's maybe a little aimless. Like the art a lot, good Iyashkei stuff.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 01:20

DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

that felt like it was missing some intermediate chapters between "the girl who transfered in is my childhood friend???" and her being good enough friends with that girl's friends to be mean to them in a buddy buddy way

for the bloom heads: https://mangadex.org/title/32987/yagate-kimi-ni-naru-comic-anthology

# ? Jan 11, 2019 02:47

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

DisDisDis posted:

that felt like it was missing some intermediate chapters between "the girl who transfered in is my childhood friend???" and her being good enough friends with that girl's friends to be mean to them in a buddy buddy way

for the bloom heads: https://mangadex.org/title/32987/yagate-kimi-ni-naru-comic-anthology

Yo there's a new Fukaboku.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 02:54

Rody One Half: Feb 18, 2011

Some real

needs popping up in Fukaboku.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 03:24

Everything Burrito: Jun 2, 2011; I Failed At Anime 2022

https://twitter.com/gomanga/status/1083493856920797184

I'm kind of shocked to see they picked this one but I'm definitely going to get it. I thought I had posted about this one back when I read it but can't find a post so I must not have. Anyway. They call it "complex" in the blurb and that's pretty accurate. I ended up reading it twice, because the first time I read it I came away not really liking it, but it stuck with me so much and I kept thinking about it I had to go back and read it again and I appreciated it a lot more the second time. Both characters are really flawed people (assholes tbh) and there's a lot of drama and angst but the MC grows a lot through the story and the resolution in the end felt really earned to me.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 03:24

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Shimanami Tasogare is great but every single time Onomichi comes up I keep expecting Kiryu to make an appearance.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 03:48

Kusaru: Dec 20, 2006; I'm a Bro-ny!

Everything Burrito posted:

https://twitter.com/gomanga/status/1083493856920797184

I'm kind of shocked to see they picked this one but I'm definitely going to get it. I thought I had posted about this one back when I read it but can't find a post so I must not have. Anyway. They call it "complex" in the blurb and that's pretty accurate. I ended up reading it twice, because the first time I read it I came away not really liking it, but it stuck with me so much and I kept thinking about it I had to go back and read it again and I appreciated it a lot more the second time. Both characters are really flawed people (assholes tbh) and there's a lot of drama and angst but the MC grows a lot through the story and the resolution in the end felt really earned to me.

Noo waaaay. I never expected that to get licensed since it's about 10 years old, but it definitely sticks with you.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 03:53

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Pollyanna posted:

Yo there's a new Fukaboku.

Oh my god this chapter is so goooooooodddd :kimchi:

Girl who doesn't like men visits crossdressing cafe, and is still scared by the crossdressing boys there because she recognises them as boys. Then the only actual trans girl who's working in the cafe enters the room.

And the girl goes "I'm ok with that one", meaning she immediately recognises the trans girl is a girl.

Then after a heart to heart with his (trans) sister, the protagonist decides to go see his enby friend, but pauses at the door.

Hello gender euphoria!

This manga keeps hitting the right notes for me.

Though Mogu's friend gives me some bad :chloe:

vibes

# ? Jan 11, 2019 10:45

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Also that cohabitation yuri thing continues to be good.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 10:59

SyntheticPolygon: Dec 20, 2013

Mikl posted:

Oh my god this chapter is so goooooooodddd

I like that the character I took for being the generic boring protagonist is having his own stuff going on with figuring out his sexuality and things. This comic is good I think.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 11:04

DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

ah, switch couples

# ? Jan 11, 2019 11:20

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Fangs, abs, and adorable dorks.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 14:48

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

SyntheticPolygon posted:

I like that the character I took for being the generic boring protagonist is having his own stuff going on with figuring out his sexuality and things. This comic is good I think.

It is!

And I'm glad to finally have my own question about how Sacchan IDs answered because her brother treating her as male seemed weird to me from the start.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 15:03

Cuntellectual: Aug 6, 2010

Fukaboku seems pretty cute, but I think I have to chalk up people that don't identify as male or female as one of those things I'll never quite understand. :shrug:

# ? Jan 11, 2019 16:00

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Cuntellectual posted:

Fukaboku seems pretty cute, but I think I have to chalk up people that don't identify as male or female as one of those things I'll never quite understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkNl3pq1twE

# ? Jan 11, 2019 16:51

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Cuntellectual posted:

Fukaboku seems pretty cute, but I think I have to chalk up people that don't identify as male or female as one of those things I'll never quite understand.

We just implemented non-binary as an option at work due to legal requirements in Colorado and elsewhere so get with the times old man.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 17:40

Snooze Cruise: Feb 16, 2013; hey look,
a post

Cuntellectual posted:

Fukaboku seems pretty cute, but I think I have to chalk up people that don't identify as male or female as one of those things I'll never quite understand.

I know it was probably not your intention, but you kinda wrote this in a lovely way. I get you meant more like, not understand what its like or whatever for these people, but the way you wrote it kinda reads like "I don't understand these nb people's very existence."

# ? Jan 11, 2019 17:49

Alder: Sep 24, 2013

Everything Burrito posted:

I'm kind of shocked to see they picked this one but I'm definitely going to get it. I thought I had posted about this one back when I read it but can't find a post so I must not have. Anyway. They call it "complex" in the blurb and that's pretty accurate. I ended up reading it twice, because the first time I read it I came away not really liking it, but it stuck with me so much and I kept thinking about it I had to go back and read it again and I appreciated it a lot more the second time. Both characters are really flawed people (assholes tbh) and there's a lot of drama and angst but the MC grows a lot through the story and the resolution in the end felt really earned to me.

I read this manga a long, long time ago. There's one scene where it's the characters were talking about how they're too old for this and yeah. It's a shame all her josei works feature terrible plots and LI. Her art is really unique.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 19:04

DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

Mors Rattus posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkNl3pq1twE

# ? Jan 11, 2019 20:30

DisDisDis: Dec 22, 2013

well i was crotchety before but i really like this manga. tho, i'm curious how this next plot point will go...

# ? Jan 11, 2019 22:21

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

I can�t tell if we�re gonna go for Friend Girl being homophobic or not, yeah.

# ? Jan 11, 2019 23:38

SyntheticPolygon: Dec 20, 2013

I mean a couple of chapters back she had that whole conversation which boiled down to "You better not date Mogumo because that would be Gay and that would be bad for him". Compared to every other character in the comic she is not open-minded at all.

# ? Jan 12, 2019 00:21

Schubalts: Nov 26, 2007; People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.

A sure-fire recipe for yuri https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_trip_of_firsts

# ? Jan 12, 2019 02:05

Clitch: Feb 26, 2002; I lived through
Donald Trump's presidency
and all I got was
this lousy virus

Pollyanna posted:

Fangs, abs, and adorable dorks.

Big, busty, awkward, cute girl is a well-worn path in manga, but the way this one's drawn is worth the look.

# ? Jan 12, 2019 02:09

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

Here's an insightful thing on historical Victorian yuri.

quote:

I've actually just written a little about this in answering another question, and I'll copy in what I wrote there, with some added detail. For women in much of the Victorian period, it would have been tolerated to live together, swear love to each other, even exchange rings and call themselves "married."

I will give you all a moment to find the monocles you no doubt just had pop out, and I'll begin.

As Sharon Marcus shows in her book Between Women: Friendship, Desire, and Marriage in Victorian England (2007), the intense expression of love and affection between women was encouraged by society, and women were invited to enjoy looking at the bodies of other women, even in sadistic/masochistic acts--adult women whipping younger girls was a popular topic in pornographic books for women. Reviewers of books that describe female-female desire often made horrified protests against characters they saw as "monstrous" and overcome by horrific sexual desire, but despite such printed protestations the lived reality was very different, and women living in long-term relationships with each other were often accepted and acknowledged by society. Marcus suggests what was shocking to Victorians was not the female-female physical desire in itself but the idea of sexual desire outside of a stable relationship; excessive love of sex was considered deviant and dangerous, and the female desire for women outside a monogamous relationship was thought to be a result of sexual desires overflowing their proper channels.

Marcus describes women who exchanged rings and called themselves married. As Marcus writes, "Women who established longterm relationships with other women, by contrast, saw themselves, and were seen by others, as placid embodiments of the middle-class ideal of marriage: a bond defined by sex that also had the power to sanctify sex" (21). Friendship, love, and even physical desire were expressed freely in letters, and hand-holding and kissing were not considered shocking, but the norm for female friends. For two women to sleep in the same bed, even touching and kissing, was not in itself considered problematic, and was even encouraged. In short, "Sexual relationships of all stripes were most acceptable when their sexual nature was least visible as such but was instead manifested in terms of marital acts such as cohabitation, fidelity, financial solidarity, and adherence to middle-class norms of respectability" (49). Out of propriety, such pairs would have been referred to by others as "friends," which can make it tricky for historians to separate romantic relationships from close friendships.

Marcus uses the example of Rosa Bonheur and Nathalie Micas, who are written about as having a "higher levels of involvement and intimacy than even the closest of female friends" (50). They lived together, shared their finances, designated each other as their heirs, and arranged to be buried together. Friends referred to the couple's "deep affection" and "long companionship", even calling them a "couple." Bonheur even referred to Micas's mother as her "mother-in-law" (51). Marcus uses as another example Frances Power Cobbe and Mary Lloyd, who were acknowledged as "a conjugal unit who lived and traveled together and were to be jointly saluted in correspondence" (51), and Cobbe even referred to Lloyd as "my old woman," "husband," and "my wife" (52, emphasis in original). Others writing about and to them referred to them in the plural, and referred to "their" house, garden, etc.

In another example, this time from the United States, the obituary of Annie Hindle from 1892 writes that she was married to Annie Ryan "by a minister of the gospel, Rev. E.H. Brooks" in 1886. Annie Hindle was known as a "male impersonator" and would often wear "men's" clothing and adopt a masculine name, but the obituary points out that "That they could live together openly as man and wife, the husband always in female attire, and yet cause no scandal, is the best proof of the esteem in which those around them held them" (Marcus 200). That the article comments on the possibility of a scandal shows the shifting attitudes about this at the end of the century, and I will address more of this later.

It should be noted that the stigma you mention attached to certain sexual roles would not have been applied, as discussion of the sexual roles of others in this period would have been very taboo and very strongly censured.

Other letters and memoirs write of attraction, infatuation, and intimate encounters, although they usually express these much later and in a veiled way. The use of euphemisms is key, and it's interesting to me that Victorian propriety not only swept details under the rug but made it possible to express those very things in a socially acceptable way, even to the point of relationships being acknowledged and accepted by society. Marcus alludes to the fact that, given the Victorian stereotype of lesbians as "mannish" and degenerate, supposdely exhibiting such physically signs as unnaturally large clitorises, the fact that women did not appear this way "allowed them to go beyond the limits assigned to their gender without being perceived as mannish or unladylike" (56).

In her article "The Trials of Alice Mitchell: Sensationalism, Sexology, and the Lesbian Subject in Turn-of-the-Century America", Lisa Duggan makes the argument that the concept of lesbianism first really took shape at the turn-of-the-century, and that the public emergence of the idea of "the lesbian" in the 1890s turned female-female relationships into a potential source of shock and condemnation, such as the trial of Alice Mitchell for insanity in the United States after killing her lover. Mitchell's trial characterized her as demonic and dangerous, with a pathology for violence linked with her transgressive desire. Thus, once a figure was created in the public imagination, the euphemisms and taboos that made female-female relationships possible faded. Duggan writes that the broader use of the "mannish lesbian" image was itself double-edged: it was used to condemn lesbians as deviant and deviant, and also by lesbians themselves as a subversize self-identification to form an identity.

It must be mentioned that the above Victorian acceptance of female-female intimate relationships generally applied to upper-class and middle-class women, but it did not hold true for the working class. Marcus writes that, "A few working-class women wrote about intimate friends in their lifewriting, but most avoided overt displays of affect and mentioned female friendships only briefly, focusing instead on relationships with female employers and coworkers that did not lend themselves to unreserved expressions of feeling" (69). The working class simply didn't have the distance from others that would have created the space in which an intimate relationship could emerge.

Male-male relationships could also be tolerated and even acknowledged if they were very discreet, but to a lesser degree and with more social censure, as well as including the stigma you suggested for the passive partner.

TL;DR ----- Up until the 1890s, middle class Victorian women could have nearly open lesbian relationships as long as they were followed the Victorian norms of cohabitation, fidelity, financial solidarity, and adherence to proper middle-class respectability. This tolerance did not extend to the "uncouth" lower class women. So sadly things like Akarui Kioku Soushitsu (Bright and Cheery Amnesia) would not work by this standard, because Mari is just too working-class.

Just look at her, working with her hands in manual labor.

golden bubble fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jan 12, 2019

# ? Jan 12, 2019 06:39

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009