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I am unemployed due to permanent physical disability.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:09
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Nobnob posted:This is one of the most horrifying report I've ever read. From the research it affects floor dwelling insects moreso than canopy dwelling ones leading the authors to postulate that changes in soil respiration may be a causal factor. However all trap mechanisms showed decreased caught biomass. For what a long-term insect mass extinction looks like, the Permian-triassic mass extinction is the only real analog we have.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:14
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When I was a kid in the early 90s I remember junebugs being literally everywhere in TN. Just loving landing and sticking to everything. Last time I was in TN I didn't see a single one. The loss of insects is pretty terrifying.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:16
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Pretty much the only reason I'm not fully on board the "wipe out / genetically modify the mosquitoes" train is because we're rapidly killing off everything else first and they may be all that remains by the time we're truly ready for it. 
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Jan 16, 2019 23:20
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Insanite posted:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/15/insect-collapse-we-are-destroying-our-life-support-systems quote:“We are essentially destroying the very life support systems that allow us to sustain our existence on the planet, along with all the other life on the planet,” Lister said. “It is just horrifying to watch us decimate the natural world like this.”  
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Jan 16, 2019 23:57
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The insect collapse is horrifying, utterly horrifying. Things are going to spiral out of control so much faster than any of us can imagine.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:15
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I'm a former video game exec who took a job as the head of research for a company building a health-related product. Lucky to find anything at my age. I work in LA, live in Carlsbad and spend most of the week in LA with only my folding bike as transportation (train to get to the city). Also, haven't eaten meat or dairy in decades (dropped well over 100lbs in '96).
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Jan 17, 2019 00:20
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Sorry about the delay Sogol. I get busy.Sogol posted:I notice maybe a couple of differences in the way I think about these things. Mostly we are agreeing about the system dynamics though I think. One difference is that unless you believe in something like Platonic forms, math doesn’t cause anything. Of course I understand what you mean, but it is these small metaphors and their entailments that condition how we see the world, select data, draw conclusions and act, etc. That's a complicated question with me. I'm a Lutheran Christian existentialist. So for me it would be: existence precedes essence, but essence can form and shape existence. Zizek uses the metaphor of a shoreline. In the bible we have this metaphor : for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.', other very similar ideas are emergence, synchrony, etc these concepts are not that different. The difficulty is translation. But let's come at from another angle. In foundations of cybernetics we have, technologies and the suites of ideas necessary to use the technology. One or the other may come first and each often implies the other. At this point I just don’t make a distinction anymore. If one has two sets of beliefs one idealistic, one materialistic, but the have nearly identical form and produce nearly identical conclusions, why worry about which one is? I could go on, but I think it’d be too much of a derail. Sogol posted:You also seem to be speaking from a “free market” mythos and all of its entailments relative to things like competition. Though the equilibrium metaphor is illustrative there are some problems with the overall context. For instance, what does it mean for shipping to be efficient or have gains in efficiency? In the current model, efficiency will only be understood as increase in the maximization and consolidation of profit, perhaps expressed as a competitive reduction in cost. The profit-debt model is so thoroughly socialized that those of us from industrialized cultures tend to think of it as a necessary and self evident truth, when in fact historically speaking it first comes about in the 1500’s in Italy. It is an effect of longer ship voyages and larger ships (and so the much larger risks) associated with the violent colonization and enslavement activities of the European powers. The debt based economy, insurance and such all follow from this. They are neither self evident nor necessary. We live as if they are both. Well those ships and insurance are my context. I wrote some of this post rather literally from that frame watching cargo load for insurance and or government/international treaty purposes. One can be inside and outside but it is not an easy place to be. But it is the place I regularly ( and professionally ) find myself. It's probably why I'm late to the right side of this issue too. Sogol posted:Your ship example does get at something really useful it seems to me. I will shift context. Let’s talk about trees and beetles. You have a forest. It is getting cyclically devastated by beetles. So you decide to control the beetle population (e.g. through the heavy use of pesticides). This works. It creates more mature trees. However, the beetles actually only eat mature trees. You end up amplifying the “problem”. You are doing this because you are attempting to reap the benefits of scale, e.g. maximizing the yield of the forest which depends on mature trees. The benefit of scale is the production of some singular outcome, e.g. GDP, mature trees, etc. This in turn relies on relating to the living systems of the world as if they were separately existing objects. You are actively causing the forest, as a metastable regime, to tip. Instead, do not attempt to maximize yield, or any singular outcome, in order to reap the supposed benefits of scaled activity. Probe the edges of the metastability. Treat managing (and limiting) the maturation of trees (and therefore yield) as more important than the management of beetles... is a simple way to say it. You have to abandon your pre-existing notions of scale and efficiency to do so. There are good case studies of this relative to marine environments, soil, forests and especially lakes, which are easiest to study. Part of the problem is: Linear programming is relatively easy. Differential equations are very hard. Most complicated systems and I would include the relationships you describe above are described by differential equations. System that can be described by differential equations often behave counter intuitively. A hot liquid will freeze faster. The correction one might make for a list could cause a capsize in a loll. Higher order terms eventually drive the behavior of the system, but don’t necessarily appear significant if the whole system is not understood. A manager can pretty easily be taught to come up with systems of algebraic equations they can plug into a program (along with some other algorithms), to minimize for or maximize for. What graduate management programs do not teach is dif eqs. They might get some system dynamics, but those will be in the context of specific models, often supply chain related. This is why I brought up Drogan earlier. His program goal was teach marine professionals systems thinking. I’m not sure he was successful with most students. It’s really hard to do. Personally I picked it up tracing physical mechanical systems. Rather literally following pipes through bulkheads and decks, documenting states at various points. The need for systems thinking is not limited to climate change. The question of how does one teach and spread this is truly vital for a whole host of issues. Sogol posted:If you attempt to do this in the current corporate/capitalist paradigm you will be interacted with as if you are doing something immoral, since the maximization and consolidation of profit is viewed as a moral absolute. If you work for a corporation you have explicitly agreed and contracted to uphold this morality. (I am not judging some "you" individually. Just stating what you have agreed to in that case.). The global legal and military structures are intended to enforce this paradigm. They do other things as well, but they are all secondary, just like safety is secondary in any industrial asset. Sogol posted:It is this. Scale systemically produces homogeneity and suppresses diversity. Usually in our current model of these things it also requires active objectification, which means violence and the application of force to keep in place (since it does not occur naturally in a way that is intended to produce singular or linear outcomes). It is a property of a system designed to maximize some singular outcome in a way that we call efficient. The homogenous, monolithic structure makes the entire system resilient to fewer variables. Far more vulnerable to linear variables. (E.g. linear accretion of something over time v non-linear events such as an asteroid strike). And that lack of resilience means the likelihood of total collapse is much, much higher with much larger impact. The variable effecting the system does not just effect part of it, but since in order to meet the “efficiency” model the structure is homogeneous and monolithic it effects the entire thing at once. (interesting examples from architecture relative to bombings and catastrophic collapse in the UK.) What I am then interested in is participation in conscious, benevolent change (usually in phenomena understood as social-ecological systems) that mitigates the massive amounts of suffering and destruction associated with collapse. On the way there it is necessary to address the massive inequities, violence and unnecessary suffering being actively produced (but related to as if passively occurring and necessary) associated with having successfully adopted models of scale and efficiency. It is something like this for me at least. Probably overstated, and certainly always accomplishing less than I would like. The US didn’t sign onto SOLAS until after Texas City. Things had to explode in a literal sense before this country decided to regulate and do something about it. I’ve written about it in other threads but regulation tends to only happen after blood. Large chunks of SOLAS, 33, and 49 CFR are directly traceable to horrific deaths( often of children). I worry that once that happens with this climate change problem it will be too late, and it probably is already to late. That said I often return to this: “Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love. No virtuous act is quite as virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as it is from our standpoint. Therefore we must be saved by the final form of love, which is forgiveness. That’s dilemma for me. See I believe in this : “Our answer is that we are getting more people with teaspoons every day.” I don’t know if it’s enough for climate change.
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Jan 17, 2019 06:11
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In Facing Mass Extinction, We Don’t Need Hope. We Need to Grieve.quote:I had hoped my work in Iraq would contribute to ending the US occupation of that country. I had hoped, too, that writing climate dispatches and bludgeoning people with scientific reports about increasingly dire predictions of the future would wake them up to the planetary crisis we find ourselves in. It has been very difficult for me to surrender that hope. But I came to understand that hope blocked the greater need to grieve, so that was the reason necessitating the surrendering of it. There's a lot of denial and depression around the 4C+ world we're heading towards and I liked this author talking about their grieving process.
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Jan 17, 2019 17:31
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“It’ll all be over shortly” “Will there be rabbits?” “...”
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Jan 17, 2019 17:40
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Wakko posted:In Facing Mass Extinction, We Don’t Need Hope. We Need to Grieve. this is just a paean to depressive realism under all the florid language but the basic idea is still correct
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Jan 17, 2019 17:51
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Oxxidation posted:this is just a paean to depressive realism under all the florid language but the basic idea is still correct Yeah. Sucks to be correct, though. Debate & Discussion > Climate Change: "I am hope-free." Over in the 'hope, somehow' corner: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/01/how-much-will-current-fossil-fuel-tech-emit-before-retirement/ quote:So barring any major surprises thrown at us by a warming planet, drat you, hope! That seems to be a catch with a lot of the solutions that revolve around mass societal change and large-scale deployments of carbon capture tech. Insanite fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 17:53
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https://www.theguardian.com/cities/ng-interactive/2017/nov/03/three-degree-world-cities-drowned-global-warming "Although sea levels will not rise instantaneously, the calculated increases will be “locked in” at a temperature rise of 3C, meaning they will be irreversible even if warming eventually slows down." edit: my cat likes to watch birds from the windows of our apartment, but this year there were no birds for him to watch :\ El Laucha fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 18:15
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El Laucha posted:https://www.theguardian.com/cities/ng-interactive/2017/nov/03/three-degree-world-cities-drowned-global-warming all those interviewed people the whole world over going "oh wooooow i never thouuuught of that!" everyone everywhere has to loving drown
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Jan 17, 2019 19:01
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Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. Insects going missing, even though very obviously perceivable by most people, seems not to worry anyone outside experts and well-informed circles and barely gets news coverage in the headlines it deserves though. Do we people really need to literally feel the heat on their skin before we start to question our actions? In terms of hope, there's been several mass extinction events in the history of planetary life, so I guess we won't be able to kill off every living cell on this planet, but I'm fairly certain that having a nice BBQ in summer will not be a thing anymore either way.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:06
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Nobnob posted:Do we people really need to literally feel the heat on their skin before we start to question our actions? Unfortunatly, yes. Learning by doing and all that. 
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Jan 17, 2019 19:10
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Nobnob posted:Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. You can spook even the worst idiot boomers by asking where the insects went.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:13
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even that won't be enough been reading barkskins by annie proulx, which largely deals with the despoilment of the north american wilderness during the 1700's-1800's, but even further back than the colonists' rampant logging and pollution you had wasteful mass killings of wildlife by the natives themselves or further back than that, to the megafauna extinctions that were probably the result of native peoples trekking down the north american continent in the first place the blithe rapaciousness of mankind has never changed, only its capability. we take and we take and our grasp eventually enfolded the whole of the planet, but even when our numbers are brutally cut we will continue taking until the last of us is gone. people will never learn. they'll forget everything they're taught until nothing remains to be forgotten
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Jan 17, 2019 19:14
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Nobnob posted:Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. Remember there is a big difference between "people" and our institutions that control decisionmaking. "People" are probably willing to accept climate change is real and something needs to be done. But we have a bunch of powerful decisionmakers using their power to delay and deny us the ability to respond because fygm.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:15
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Nobnob posted:Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. The reason "The Silent Spring" was so effective is because it tapped into the clear and obvious changes that people did notice but didn't think about. Carson tapped into people's good memories of their lives -- hearing birds during peaceful and relaxing times -- and told them they loving killed them. Insect death is, unfortunately, harder to counteract since they form the basis of so many ecological systems. The news about the insects being killed is about a study done in the tropics, where critters are much much more sensitive to any kind of environment change since so many are highly specialized. It's a clear indication of how hosed we are. We won't kill all insects, but we will kill all the cool ones. Earth will become terminally dorky, populated by nerdy cucarachas and geekbins, a kind of moth that eats books.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:19
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God I hate bugs E: sure miss them now though
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Jan 17, 2019 19:22
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silicone thrills posted:I'm a computer toucher at a company that does design consulting. Sadly the company is super tied to the airline industry so i'm saving every penny I can. And I realize that its horrible for the environment but someones has to get paid for it and I try my best to push us towards lower power use options and telecommuting where I can. I also work in computers in the aviation industry. It does nothing for me enjoyment wise, it but I think working in the environmental sector would just depress me even further. Also, have no idea what I want to do with my life. I can't do the "Don't buy new things this year" thing since buying new clothes are one of the few things that still give me joy. I just hope that if I resolve my mental issues, that I become a productive member of this fight. Until then, this is me. AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 19:40
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VideoGameVet posted:I'm a former video game exec who took a job as the head of research for a company building a health-related product. Lucky to find anything at my age. You take the Coaster to the Metrolink every day? How long does that take you?
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Jan 17, 2019 19:44
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Nobnob posted:Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. https://twitter.com/theonion/status/988122800417329153
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Jan 17, 2019 19:54
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Admiral Ray posted:The reason "The Silent Spring" was so effective is because it tapped into the clear and obvious changes that people did notice but didn't think about. Carson tapped into people's good memories of their lives -- hearing birds during peaceful and relaxing times -- and told them they loving killed them. Insect death is, unfortunately, harder to counteract since they form the basis of so many ecological systems. Insects are great. My thriving colony of ants is certainly the best thing in my apartment and I'd hate to change them for nerdy moths. However, since we already know about bees dying en mass and them no longer making our plants pregnant, I assume this will be the area where we realize how bad it's going the fastest. In terms of collapsing ecosystems it does sound very cynical, but are there any articifial alternatives to replace those insects that we directly or indirectly need to survive as humans? Or will starvation be the most likely outcome out of this? At least trying to find some kind of hope on this.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:56
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Nobnob posted:Insects are great. My thriving colony of ants is certainly the best thing in my apartment and I'd hate to change them for nerdy moths. we're too collectively stupid to maintain the basic functionality of our own governments, there will be no far-reaching technological solution read the truthout article, let hope die
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Jan 17, 2019 20:00
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Nobnob posted:Given these numbers and reports I find it increasingly difficult to understand that merely now after this terrible summer people even begin to get an idea of what global warming might actually mean, despite none of this being a complete surprise or actual news. Nobody will ever question their actions, they will blame anyone and everything else even as they starve to death. Self-awareness is punishingly absent in most humans.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:04
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dream9!bed!! posted:You take the Coaster to the Metrolink every day? How long does that take you? No. I take Amtrak to the Red Line at the start of the week, returning at the end, and use my folding bike (yes, even today in the big rain storm) during the week to get around. Ventura Blvd. is an "interesting" road to bike on.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:07
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Alright I think we've had the proper despondency from those articles. Anyone have success radicalizing people into become much more aware of the overaching effects of climate change and how its not the future and is here? I've talked to a few in my circle but I think I'm coming off as kinda crazy. If anyones got tactics please let me know. At the very least I want to continue getting people around here informed so when I do my failed plan to run for office they may remember and think hey he wants try to do a thing about climate change.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:08
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Nobnob posted:Insects are great. My thriving colony of ants is certainly the best thing in my apartment and I'd hate to change them for nerdy moths. Can we just yell at climate change deniers "IT DOESN'T MATTER"? It literally doesn't matter if people are causing climate change. The Earth could just be bipolar and in a mood. The devil could have opened a window and hell could be leaking. It's still going to kill us if we don't take action to keep the climate from changing.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:10
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Actually that's for God to decide
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Jan 17, 2019 20:11
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Cerepol posted:Alright I think we've had the proper despondency from those articles. My dad went to a freaking PhD program on climate change and yet he’s as chill as can be. When I asked him about the IPCC report he dismissed it as “alarmist nonsense” and reassures me I will never see the effects of climate change in my lifetime. I don’t talk about this subject to anyone else because I don’t want to further alienate myself from society. I wonder what the gently caress they taught my dad in that degree and the multiple conferences he attended (in foreign countries, of course).
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Jan 17, 2019 20:16
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moist turtleneck posted:Actually that's for God to decide barkskins also educated me on the christian colonists' belief that they were inherently more virtuous than the natives because the bible instructed them to "tend" the earth, which in their minds equaled logging, stripping and redeveloping everything same as it ever was
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Jan 17, 2019 20:17
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moist turtleneck posted:Actually that's for God to decide Any God worth worshipping would apologize on Their knees to each and every human for all They have put us through.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:19
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“I’m
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Jan 17, 2019 20:20
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Infinite Karma posted:Bees only pollinate some plants, plenty are pollinated by wind or flies or butterflies or other methods. It'll still be bad if colonies keep collapsing, but the ecosystem is tougher than just bees. We won't starve, but some crops being impractical is very possible. Would it be possible to assign "pollinating plants" as one of those jobs Americans and bees don't want to do so we just forget the border wall and give immigrants jobs keeping plantlife alive?
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Jan 17, 2019 20:24
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They're already doing this in China using paintbrushes. https://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/5193-Decline-of-bees-forces-China-s-apple-farmers-to-pollinate-by-hand
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Jan 17, 2019 20:30
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I do it at home with a Q Tip when I'm indoors
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Jan 17, 2019 20:33
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Nobnob posted:
We could pay climate refugees to wonder around pollinating our most important crops.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:35
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Doesn't Walmart already have a bee drone that pollinates but also maybe sterilizes people or does spy work on the side
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Jan 17, 2019 20:54
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