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Oxxidation posted:yeah stain and overhaul are the only characters who have a coherent objection to the hero society outside of shigaraki's "let's gently caress up everything, everywhere" schtick and unfortunately their points are undermined because both of them are giant crazy idiot dum-dums LockRock correctly objected to kids being sent on a high-stakes life-or-death rescue mission, based on the fact that they were literal children. Luckily for dramatic purposes, the counterargument "meh, they'll be fine, their Quirks are yuuuuuge" carried the day.
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Jan 27, 2019 06:50
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Vengarr posted:You said "Man it was bullshit the hero exam was set up like a big game, pitting heroes against each other to make them wash out". You're right, I forgot that a character who is also being presented as an rear end in a top hat also made a comment about how much things suck. If this is a theme Horikoshi is actually trying to put forward - and I don't agree with you that it is - then he's not doing a great job of it.
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Jan 27, 2019 06:56
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villains are more compelling when their motives come from real emotions but that also necessitates that they be psychopaths otherwise people start to realize the bad guys are right
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Jan 27, 2019 07:29
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Blockhouse posted:You're right, I forgot that a character who is also being presented as an rear end in a top hat also made a comment about how much things suck. Not being a dick, but re-read the first chapter. The series laid all of its cards on the table from the start. The three pro "heroes" sit around waiting for help while the skinny middle schooler with no powers rushes in. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 07:46
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It's not like Stain is absolutely 100% wrong in what he's saying - but as shown in his actions (and covered in Vigilantes) he's also a petty, hypocritical murderer and legit lunatic. The kernel of truth is that being an ideal altruistic charicature of a hero is almost diametrically opposed to doing so for compensation, as a job. What's unstated in that is that the person being saved from a super powered mutant doesn't care if the one doing the saving is getting paid or not. Their world doesn't need ideal, perfect heroes, it just needs any it can get. It also needs people (and villains!) to believe in that system wholeheartedly. If someone gets the thought in their mind that maybe the person in the wacky jump suit might not put themselves in harm's way because they're not being paid enough or it's "just" a job, that's a problem. That line of thinking emboldens villains and scares civilians. It loops back to "well, why would anyone listen to Stain?" and I don't think that's what was being portrayed. The doubt is intrinsic to the system, having it stated out loud just makes it obvious. Tie it to a viral video of some lunatic being arrested and now it's just out there getting views. e: my complaint earlier regarding the license exam was that it was dumb and gamey and I can kind of respect that maybe it was intentionally so. I still think it's a bit have-your-cake-and-eat-it to show the whole thing in the manga if the goal was to portray it at something dumb and arbitrary, but I'm a bit less sour on it in that regard now, so thanks thread. Solanumai fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 08:07
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Arist posted:People looking at Stain and going "hmm this dude makes some pretty good points" is absurd when the dude isn't remotely selective in regards to his targets Stain has a big PR advantage in that he's out of the public eye. He had a strong criticism of the status quo, he did a couple of totally sick things on camera, and now he's shut the hell up. Everyone can project their own values on him without the actual man shooting his mouth off and letting them realize what a dumb he really is. Vengarr posted:They intentionally set up the kids to fail because the Powers That Be in-universe want fewer heroes.
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Jan 27, 2019 09:53
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Shere posted:It's not like Stain is absolutely 100% wrong in what he's saying - but as shown in his actions (and covered in Vigilantes) he's also a petty, hypocritical murderer and legit lunatic. Hey he's not a hypocrite, but he is petty and a lunatic.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:07
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Arist posted:People looking at Stain and going "hmm this dude makes some pretty good points" is absurd when the dude isn't remotely selective in regards to his targets Sorry but the last 2 years or so have pushed the needle back on what qualifies as absurd nowadays
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Jan 27, 2019 11:13
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Also, if you seriously doubt the influence, especially on disenfranchised teenagers or outcasts who feel as if they don't fit in, of charismatic crazies that criticize society that people in authority try to silence the voice of... Like... what loving reality do you live in, and can I join you? Like Dabi, at this point, is so blatantly Endeavor's son, as not only does he have beef with the Todoroki's, Endeavor himself lamented stealing the future of a child through his hatred and petty desires. Toga, and people might have forgotten this, is someone that is being covered up. Like they actively mention the Police have been told to shut up about her and not let anyone know about her being an active murderer. Which is weird they don't do that with other villains. Vigilantes, although a companion piece, brings up how history actively lies about the introduction of the Hero License, and states that most of the Vigilantes were labelled villains for not cowtowing to society. Then there's even the fact that All For One was in control of Japan for basically until very Deku's generation... Yet he let schools like UA exist? And Hero Licenses and Hero Culture was essentially shaped by him from the shadow. In short, the current Hero Society is as much a product of All For One as Villain Society is. Like the hosed up nature of society is blatantly established right now. The peace and tranquillity All Might brought is cracking, as more villains become emboldened, and Shigaraki positions himself as the new dark messiah. This isn't incidental, it's a theme.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:18
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It's hard to get a read on if MHA is actually intending to say a lot of the things this thread thinks it is. They're good messages, but the messaging in the manga itself is so muddled. A lot of the time it's said by characters portrayed as psychopaths or clowns with the main characters of the story barely paying any lip service to the idea. But then once in a great while there are more sympathetic portrayals like Twice's backstory and Gentle and La Brava that give me pause and cause me to wonder if the manga really is trying to make an actual critique of hero society. Right now I don't think it is. Too many of the heroes we meet are actually good people, with the worst of them mostly just being self obsessed save for Endeavor who was an abusive monster, and his image is in the process of being repaired.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:19
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Viridiant posted:It's hard to get a read on if MHA is actually intending to say a lot of the things this thread thinks it is. They're good messages, but the messaging in the manga itself is so muddled. A lot of the time it's said by characters portrayed as psychopaths or clowns with the main characters of the story barely paying any lip service to the idea. But then once in a great while there are more sympathetic portrayals like Twice's backstory and Gentle and La Brava that give me pause and cause me to wonder if the manga really is trying to make an actual critique of hero society. Note: Hero Society doesn't necessarily mean 'Heroes'. It is in reference to the whole thing around it. It's not that all heroes are horrible people looking to get ahead in their job, and only doing it for a reward. It's that heroics are a job. Let's take a look at Hawks. Hawks is someone who was blessed with a powerful quirk, and even from the little we've seen, it's clear he was basically press-ganged into super heroics. On top of that, it's even MORE clear that he's being forced into this double agent role, and isn't comfortable with either. Let's look at the popularity chart putting Wash in Slot 8. Not due to his massive success of heroics, but because he starred in a commercial that was popular. What does that say about society, that a position of the 8th greatest hero in Japan is given to essentially a commercial mascot? What is the popularity chart period? It's a genuine thing used to rank heroes, people focus on it firmly, and yet isn't that kinda hosed? Yeah, Deku's life isn't really about that, but he's very clearly apart of a new generation of young people who are entering this society. Given whole chapters have been dedicated to talking about how hosed Hero Society is, from the perspective of the Police and heroes, I don't think this is a case of incidental theming. It's also important to note that while Stain had a point, he was wrong. Hero Society is hosed, but not nearly as hosed as he envisioned it, but he was a zealot. Another important thing is separating the actual critique from the bullshit villain excuses. When All For One and Shigaraki claim their oppression in society, and how they've been rejected and abused and All Might being a bully? Neither of them believes it, not for a second. When Shigaraki first tried that poo poo, All Might immediately called him out on using it as an excuse to be a psychopath. And Shigaraki is like "Yup."
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Jan 27, 2019 12:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:Hey he's not a hypocrite, but he is petty and a lunatic. Stain hates hero society for being materialist and devaluing the term "hero", and spends his time murdering random heroes as punishment for being self-serving mercenaries who claim to be heroes but are really in it for the money and fame instead of purely in it to help people. His sterling example of a Perfect True Hero that he measures everyone against and finds wanting is All Might. You know, All Might, the guy who was the most famous hero ever and had a gigantic raft of merchandise dedicated to his image(our protagonist's room being an example thereof) and had his own agency and made his living as a pro hero for his entire adult life. All Might himself didn't live up to the standards Stain demanded of every hero because Stain's standards are both arbitrary and nearly impossible for an adult living in society to achieve(because surprisingly it's pretty hard to both support yourself and also find time to put on a costume and risk your life saving people and fighting criminals and psychopaths for no compensation or recognition).
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Jan 27, 2019 13:44
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Considering how All For One used to control the country, I wonder how corrupt the old top 10 heroes where before All Might came barreling in and tore down everything AfO built. I really want an arc showing what society was like just before All Might made his big debut.
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Jan 27, 2019 13:55
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I feel what we're meant to think about Hero Society is best exemplified by the person that created its current form: All Might. He's the ideal hero: selfless, entirely dedicated to saving others, constantly optimistic, completely dedicated to victory, and absurdly powerful. Surely he has no flaws, right? Oh right. All of that led to him getting several organs destroyed. He also has, as far as we can see, only a single friend, and most people relatively close to him had absolutely no idea who he really was until he lost One For All, making it clear just how much he refuses to actually get close to others. The one person that we truly know is a friend of his, is that entirely by coincidence, having found out his secret identity because Toshinori was so obsessed with helping others that he slipped and made it blatantly obvious he was All Might, and even there that situation only happened because he was so busy being All Might that he completely failed to respect the law and do his paperwork. You'd think he of all people would get a break but Tsukauchi is clear that he actually has far more pressure to do even that perfectly because he has to live with being an example to everyone. The only other connections All Might has are Nana (whose life not only ended in a horrible way but the legacy of that keeps haunting the entire world in Shigaraki, and who was shown as no less perfect a hero as Toshinori himself), Gran Torino (who was physically abusive to the point that All Might is genuinely scared of him), and our protagonist and his successor (who has constantly managed to get himself horribly hurt in his desire to help others and is at a genuine risk of losing his arms if he continues that way). As well, All Might's legacy to the world? Doesn't exist. Beyond Deku still being inexperienced, the moment he left, everything went to hell. He didn't leave a strong society behind, he left a dependant one that only really trusted All Might despite there being a lot of heroes in Japan. Villains are, unsurprisingly, strengthened by this. I feel with all that it's clear that we're meant to see Hero Society as a great ideal, but also something that needs fixes. Sadly, Horikoshi hasn't been all too great at showing it, and if anything, Vigilantes has done a better job at fleshing that out through backstory and seeing the darker side of it.
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Jan 27, 2019 14:43
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Vengarr posted:Not being a dick, but re-read the first chapter. The series laid all of its cards on the table from the start. The three pro "heroes" sit around waiting for help while the skinny middle schooler with no powers rushes in. I mean most normal day to day street heroes we've been shown have been bumnblekings largely outclassed even by our protag babies (See the stain fight). This is true to the point that the top 3 students and at UA are directly stated to already be better at hero work than most professional heroes. The whole idea that this hero society is barely functioning and falling apart is kind of one of the core plot threads in the narrative and it's very heavy handed. The other major one being "Being heroic to the point of self-sacrifice might get results for now but is ultimately self-destructive and unhelpful" to the point that, as Blaze Dragon said, even All Mights legendary drive for self-sacrifice cause him to be gravely injured and spurred on his retirement which then causes this huge shock to society that is enabling to rise of people like the VA and the Yakuza. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 16:55
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Kanos posted:Stain hates hero society for being materialist and devaluing the term "hero", and spends his time murdering random heroes as punishment for being self-serving mercenaries who claim to be heroes but are really in it for the money and fame instead of purely in it to help people. His sterling example of a Perfect True Hero that he measures everyone against and finds wanting is All Might. You know, All Might, the guy who was the most famous hero ever and had a gigantic raft of merchandise dedicated to his image(our protagonist's room being an example thereof) and had his own agency and made his living as a pro hero for his entire adult life. Stain wants everyone to live like Spider-Man, which....hey, I love Spider-Man, but that sounds miserable
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Jan 27, 2019 17:51
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I think its worth pointing out that even Mt. Lady, the very first hero we're supposed to see as 'corrupt' and is later revealed to be selfish, lazy and self-centered, still literally threw herself in front of children to protect them from villains. Sure a lot of heroes are pretty crappy ones if you think about it, but they still do help people and the system can be reformed without totally destroying it.
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Jan 27, 2019 18:28
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I liked that the kids themselves couldn't really argue with Stain's core thesis and admitted it. Yeah, if you're getting paid to put on a costume and beat up muggers in public and flog merch on the side that's very much not the classical definition of a hero (heroism at its core is true selflessness- doing a great thing for others for no personal benefit, and possibly even a great cost to oneself). Even after he carved his brother's spine out Iida and the kids had a hard time disagreeing with the purest core of it. It's just that whatever Stain saw in school along with what happened when he went vigilante himself made him totally lose the plot and decide anyone who wasn't All Might needed to be purged until people "woke up". Horikoshi I think is a bit too much of an overall optimist to point out explicitly that in the All Might world where most organized crime is gone or thoroughly underground- the majority of the people you'd see people like Kamui/Mt. Lady/DeathArms/etc beating the poo poo out of in public (to the admiration of passersby) would be almost entirely people who are desperate, poor, and/or mentally ill. I guarantee he has thought of it though since he's a gigantic westaboo who is way into cape comics- I think that Toga and Twice are kinda reflections of that idea. Toga is flat out mentally ill and is a serial killer which isn't terribly "sexy" to a world that enjoys consuming costumed heroes slapping around purse-snatchers, so her activities are covered up as the police try to track her down. Twice is also legit very mentally ill, and very specifically has never sought help because from what he saw of hero society no one is interested in saving anyone like him- so he found the league so he could be with other people who accept him.  I need to find the interview again since it's one of the early ones but Horikoshi was asked for American comics he'd recommend to a new JAPANESE reader, and his first recommendation was Astro City which is pretty telling. Fabricated fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 19:01
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Fabricated posted:I liked that the kids themselves couldn't really argue with Stain's core thesis and admitted it. This is sort of the dark core of all cape comics; the vast majority of crime-fighting heroes are basically privileged people(be it money, superpowers, etc) beating up people who fell through the cracks in one way or another, be it via economic distress, personal failure, mental illness, or just society giving up on them. The fact that Horikoshi put stories like Twice's, Gentle Criminal's, and Shigaraki's in the comic suggests that he's interested in exploring this issue to some extent instead of just papering over it and ignoring it like a lot of comics do. If he was solely interested in telling a "HERO SOCIETY GOOD!" story, it's inexplicable why he would include multiple characters who are entirely defined by hero society failing them or loving them over in some way and devote time to explaining how and why they were failed or hosed over.
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Jan 27, 2019 19:11
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Kanos posted:Stain hates hero society for being materialist and devaluing the term "hero", and spends his time murdering random heroes as punishment for being self-serving mercenaries who claim to be heroes but are really in it for the money and fame instead of purely in it to help people. His sterling example of a Perfect True Hero that he measures everyone against and finds wanting is All Might. You know, All Might, the guy who was the most famous hero ever and had a gigantic raft of merchandise dedicated to his image(our protagonist's room being an example thereof) and had his own agency and made his living as a pro hero for his entire adult life. All Might is stated to put all the stuff from merchandising to charity. He's actually not very well off and his Hero office was tiny and kind of dingy, because he did not feel comfortable accepting tons of money for helping people, he basically accepts just what he needs to live off his government paycheck.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:All Might is stated to put all the stuff from merchandising to charity. He's actually not very well off and his Hero office was tiny and kind of dingy, because he did not feel comfortable accepting tons of money for helping people, he basically accepts just what he needs to live off his government paycheck.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:25
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Vengarr posted:You said "Man it was bullshit the hero exam was set up like a big game, pitting heroes against each other to make them wash out". They were trying to get into a prestigious and exclusive school with a limited number of slots. Why wouldn't they be competing with each other? Also UA isn't the only hero school out there, just the best. The ones who didn't get in can go to other schools.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:19
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I get the feeling that All Might was living a pretty sad and lonely life outside of hero work before meeting Deku.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:22
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Rhonne posted:I get the feeling that All Might was living a pretty sad and lonely life outside of hero work before meeting Deku.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:33
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MonsterEnvy posted:All Might is stated to put all the stuff from merchandising to charity. He's actually not very well off and his Hero office was tiny and kind of dingy, because he did not feel comfortable accepting tons of money for helping people, he basically accepts just what he needs to live off his government paycheck. Even if All Might specifically didn't decide to become a rich dude off his merchandise, he pretty clearly contributed massively to the materialization of hero society that Stain professes to despise. Every kid wanting an All Might hoodie or an All Might action figure tells other heroes that if you get popular enough, people will become fans of you and spend money on poo poo related to you - you can sell your image for personal gain. This directly leads to stuff like the lady Momo and Kendoh interned with spending the week shooting commercials, and to stuff like Uraraka's entire motivation for becoming a hero is to get rich - to help her family, of course, but she still wants to cash in - because it's recognized that being a hero can be big dollars if you market yourself. There's also the unassailable fact that All Might lived off money from hero work, even if he lived an extremely modest and humble life. Note that I'm not criticizing All Might myself here so much as pointing out that Stain is a huge hypocrite who makes some pretty big exceptions to put All Might on a pedestal while murdering no name heroes who are just walking local beats.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:52
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Blaze Dragon posted:I feel what we're meant to think about Hero Society is best exemplified by the person that created its current form: All Might. He's the ideal hero: selfless, entirely dedicated to saving others, constantly optimistic, completely dedicated to victory, and absurdly powerful. Surely he has no flaws, right? Well, he has another friend in the movie. A friend who, due to All Might not keeping him in the loop, is driven into criminal action, which leads to his arrest and hospitalization. Whoops. Of course, one advantage Vigilantes has in fleshing out the flaws of Hero Society is that it's still in the golden age. It's easier to go looking for flaws in a system when the system is sturdy and you're focused on the people who suffer from it. Less easy when you're looking at the people desperately trying to keep in together with the alternative being someone like Overhaul running rampant.
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Jan 27, 2019 23:02
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Stain would try to kill Captain Celebrity which means Stain is a terrible psycho no one should listen to.
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Jan 27, 2019 23:49
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Paracelsus posted:They were trying to get into a prestigious and exclusive school with a limited number of slots. Why wouldn't they be competing with each other? We were talking about the license exam, not the entrance exam. Lot of exams in this school manga.
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Jan 28, 2019 00:44
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Vengarr posted:We were talking about the license exam, not the entrance exam. Lot of exams in this school manga. Ah, my bad.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:48
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Kanos posted:This is sort of the dark core of all cape comics; the vast majority of crime-fighting heroes are basically privileged people(be it money, superpowers, etc) beating up people who fell through the cracks in one way or another, be it via economic distress, personal failure, mental illness, or just society giving up on them. The fact that Horikoshi put stories like Twice's, Gentle Criminal's, and Shigaraki's in the comic suggests that he's interested in exploring this issue to some extent instead of just papering over it and ignoring it like a lot of comics do. It varies, even within Marvel/DC. Some supervillains are very privileged people themselves (Luthor being the most obvious example, but also all those alien dictators and evil gods). Batman is a zillionaire whose villains are mostly mentally ill, but he’s also mentally ill and many of his villains are also zillionaires.
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Jan 28, 2019 04:36
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Hypocrisy posted:Stain would try to kill Captain Celebrity which means Stain is a terrible psycho no one should listen to. Stain would also probably try to kill Pop*Step, in which case gently caress the hell out of Stain.
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Jan 28, 2019 04:39
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Silver2195 posted:It varies, even within Marvel/DC. Some supervillains are very privileged people themselves (Luthor being the most obvious example, but also all those alien dictators and evil gods). Batman is a zillionaire whose villains are mostly mentally ill, but he’s also mentally ill and many of his villains are also zillionaires. "Batman is a privileged man beating up the mentally ill" is "Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the human race." in 1st year 'miss the loving point while jerking yourself off' class. EDIT: Like... Yeah, that works if you choose to not engage the text in any way shape or form, analyze the themes or content of the stories and instead stick to the vaguest, most spread thin description of each character. Onmi fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 04:43
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Onmi posted:"Batman is a privileged man beating up the mentally ill" is "Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the human race." in 1st year 'miss the loving point while jerking yourself off' class. Batman definitely sucks though
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Jan 28, 2019 04:46
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Onmi posted:"Batman is a privileged man beating up the mentally ill" is "Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the human race." in 1st year 'miss the loving point while jerking yourself off' class. Oh poo poo, the Batman expert has logged on. How entry-level a take is Batman's a fascist? Seriously though, my only real experience is Arkham games and Brave and the Bold.
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Jan 28, 2019 06:56
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RareAcumen posted:Oh poo poo, the Batman expert has logged on. Depends on which version but generally speaking Batman is not a Fascist. There is a short alternate reality comic about a dystopian future where The Bat is a Big Brother Future in charge of society which causes the Joker to be an anarchist trying to destroy the oppressive regime. But, the Batman stories I like and remember best uses both Batman and Bruce Wayne as equal in trying to fight crime. Batman of course doing actual vigilante work whilst Bruce Wayne uses his money and company to improve the lives of the homeless and reformed criminals and so on and so forth.
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Jan 28, 2019 08:39
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RareAcumen posted:Oh poo poo, the Batman expert has logged on. "Batman's a fascist" is the take you get from reading too much Frank Miller-- cursed be his name-- at the start, and then never touching anything Batman ever again, because you think it's all like that. Just enough to be wrong, not enough to be right.
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Jan 28, 2019 09:41
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RareAcumen posted:Oh poo poo, the Batman expert has logged on. About 'Regular at Starbucks trying to impress a barista who's been so far done with your poo poo that they're silently calling 000' level. SwissArmyDruid posted:"Batman's a fascist" is the take you get from reading too much Frank Miller-- cursed be his name-- at the start, and then never touching anything Batman ever again, because you think it's all like that. Just enough to be wrong, not enough to be right. That too. Pity that poor soul.
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Jan 28, 2019 11:22
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All for one was in control of japans underworld not japan proper right?
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Jan 28, 2019 12:13
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Jose posted:All for one was in control of japans underworld not japan proper right? I’m sure he’d tell you it’s the same thing, but yes.
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Jan 28, 2019 12:15
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To criticize All Might for selling merch is a pretty high level "missing the point". All Might's (public) face is meant to be our platonic ideal of heroism. He is a hero who makes people feel safer just because "I am here". It's been explicitly spelled out multiple times that All Might's merch serves a explicit purpose of making his presence even greater then his actual superheroing, making villains scared to act out because everywhere they look there's reminders of All Might as an insurmountable wall who you can't even hope to scratch. All Might is also the definition of self-sacrificing, having sacrificed both personal relationships and his goddamn internal organs on the altar of being a hero. Stain is 100% insane and petty but he absolutely has a point to make about self-serving "heroes" who solely pursue the work for fame or money. All Might isn't a gloryhound for his own sake, he promotes his image for the sake of giving people a sense of security. The sincerity of Stain's beliefs is shown in the chapter in which he's captured, in which he slips his bonds, while bloodied and beaten up just to stab a Nomu, rescuing a hero who meets his standard, puncturing his lung with a broken rib in the process. The fact that Stain has a point doesn't mean he's objectively right (nor are his methods good). Endeavour is still a perfectly good "crimestopper" even though he wasn't "heroic" at the time of Stain's arc. No one can argue that Endeavour doesn't do material good for society through his deeds, but Stain will absolutely argue all day long (with knives) that Endeavour is not a "hero" and that he besmirches the name with his uncharismatic and aggressive personality. As far as I recall we've never seen Stain stabbing or harming police because as far as we can tell he doesn't consider them part of the issue. They are police and they act like police and they don't lay claim to being heroes.
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