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pseudanonymous posted:Frankly "Ned" is one of the dumbest most baffling characters in ASoIaF. A lot of what he does is driven by what will move the plot along. Ned doesn't understand the society he's in. Hes not actually a bad character, hes got a pretty serious flaw that leads to his downfall. And then to the downfall of the rest of his family. Books 1-3 are pretty well written in this regard.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:23
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Neddard Stark is the only character who actually seems like he could, kinda, be from the Middle Ages. He understand his society very well. It's just that most other characters are inexplicably Machiavellian political realists, even though the society is Pre-Machiavellian.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:45
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hobbesmaster posted:Ned doesn't understand the society he's in. I get that interpretation of Ned, that he basically believes in chivalry etc.. but it seems hard to believe he's that naive given what happens to his father/brother, the queen's betrayl, Jon Arryns murder, his sisters elopement etc.. and even if he does I don't see it all that well established through the flashbacks and whatnot from the children, which is where you'd expect to see "father always said justice blah blah".
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Mar 11, 2019 19:51
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Was there a long time between season 5 and 6? Brann sure grew a lot. Okay real cheeky of Jon to pull the whole "my watch has ended" because he was technically dead. But since the entire North knows that Neds bastard went to join the Watch. Why would they not behead him on the spot as a deserter whenever he tried to use his name to rally them? "I'm not a deserter. I died and came back I swear" is a hard sell.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:26
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Katt posted:Was there a long time between season 5 and 6? Brann sure grew a lot. Not really, he prob just hit puberty
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Mar 11, 2019 21:11
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Katt posted:Was there a long time between season 5 and 6? Brann sure grew a lot. He was Lord Commander, resigned, and the next Lord Commander gave him leave. Stannis gave him leave. The King in the North gave him leave. AND death gave him leave.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:51
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Collateral posted:Not trusting Cat wasn't entirely dumb considering her sister, but why leave him a bastard? His BFF is the king who would do anything for Ned. Have him raised by Jon Arryn. No, keep him right under the nose of the woman who thinks he is the product of Ned betraying her, with the stigma of illegitimacy. Ned must really have hated his sister to mistreat her son so much. Robert most likely would have killed him. This is shown by Roberts extreme anger, and Neds repulsion, when they find out about the council trying to assassinate the remaining Targaryens. Jon also would have been a constant threat to the throne, an endless cucking joke on Robert, etc. Someone would have killed him for sure. hobbesmaster posted:Not trusting Cat with that piece of info is peak Stark. esperterra posted:Tyrion is 100% Tywin's child. The real kicker would be if Aerys constantly trying to gently caress down with Joanna before she got sent away from King's Landing resulted in Jaime and Cersei tbh, leaving Tyrion as Tywin's only true heir lmbo I would accept this twist. I will also accept that Tyrion is completely impotent and they are all targs.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:51
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I'm not suggesting Ned reveal jons parentage. He can still claim to be his father just get him legitimised by Big Bob. Robert didn't figure out his own children, the risk of him finding out about Jon is very small.
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Mar 11, 2019 23:40
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As usual, fans quibble about the finer details and logic of the plot rather than discussing writing.
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Mar 11, 2019 23:44
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Collateral posted:I'm not suggesting Ned reveal jons parentage. He can still claim to be his father just get him legitimised by Big Bob. Robert didn't figure out his own children, the risk of him finding out about Jon is very small. Legitimizing a bastard is not something that is done often, Ramsay Snow being legitimized seemed to be pretty unprecedented. Aegon the Unworthy didn't even legitimize Daemon Blackfyre, he just gave him the ancestral sword and seemed to think that'd clear things up. Though I suppose that's up for debate. Ned had other children, his appeal to have Jon legitimized when it would only gently caress with the succession would've raised eyebrows at the very least.
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Mar 12, 2019 00:18
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Vichan posted:Legitimizing a bastard is not something that is done often, Ramsay Snow being legitimized seemed to be pretty unprecedented. He could have just lied and said it was the son of one of his bannerman ( perhaps one who died in the war ) , which would have made everything much easier for everyone. I think it's lovely that Ned was ok with Jon going to the wall. I mean, he didn't even get him laid first. gently caress that guy. I wonder if Ned hated Jon a little bit, for the Rhaeghar part. I mean once Ned found out they eloped, could he really blame Rhaeghar for the war? I'd sure like to know these things 
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Mar 12, 2019 01:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:As usual, fans quibble about the finer details and logic of the plot rather than discussing writing. I think the writing is reliable and workhorse like. It has great adequasivity.
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Mar 12, 2019 01:22
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kcroy posted:. I mean once Ned found out they eloped, could he really blame Rhaeghar for the war? I'd sure like to know these things Pretty sure Ned blames Aerys for the war, i.e. the guy who had his father and older brother killed (then demanded that he present himself there, likely also to be killed). Robert was the one who obsessively hated Rhaegar, since he believes he kidnapped Lyanna (false) and that Lyanna loved him (false). Ned probably would have hated Rhaegar more if he had never found out the truth about him and Lyanna, and probably did hate him much more before he found out. Probably why a lot of their conversations were like: Robert: "I sure loved killing Rhaegar. Wish I could kill him again. He sure was an rear end in a top hat" Ned: "Mmm...:" Robert: "Fucker stole my girlfriend and your sister!" Ned: "Yeah. What a dick." Robert: "GRR!! ARGH!!!" Ned: "So anyway..."
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Mar 12, 2019 01:41
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Vichan posted:Legitimizing a bastard is not something that is done often, Ramsay Snow being legitimized seemed to be pretty unprecedented. The Dance of the Dragons war was caused by the king legitimizing all his bastards before he died causing a massive succession crisis that ended with like one dragon alive maybe.
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Mar 12, 2019 02:31
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kcroy posted:He could have just lied and said it was the son of one of his bannerman ( perhaps one who died in the war ) , which would have made everything much easier for everyone. I think it's lovely that Ned was ok with Jon going to the wall. I mean, he didn't even get him laid first. gently caress that guy. I wonder if Ned hated Jon a little bit, for the Rhaeghar part. I mean once Ned found out they eloped, could he really blame Rhaeghar for the war? I'd sure like to know these things This kid? Uhhh its lord Whatevers kid. He cheated on Lady whoever with a tavern whore. Yes I am keeping this kid for.....reasons."
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Mar 12, 2019 03:00
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There was never any indication that Lyanna didn't like Robert as well was there? Wasn't she like 16? Being infatuated with someone one day and then someone else the next sounds like a very 16yo thing to do, and back then Robert was supposed to be all strong and buff and sexy, at least according to Cersei.
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Mar 12, 2019 04:25
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Just finished my re-watch of GOT to get ready for season 8. If you can ignore the plot holes and lack of realism in travel time in season 7 it's enjoyable to see things I've been waiting 15 years for finally happen. And some of the funniest dialogue/interactions in the entire series with the expedition north of the wall. You're the one they call the dog. gently caress off. They told me you were mean. Born mean or you just hate wildlings? I don't give two shits about wildlings. It's gingers I hate. Gingers are beautiful. We are kissed by fire. Just like you..(points at the large face burn) Don't point your loving finger at me. Did you trip into the fire when you were a baby? I didn't trip I was pushed. Ever since you've been mean. Will you gently caress off? I don't think you're truly mean. You have sad eyes. You want to suck my dick, is that it? Dick? Cock. Ahh, dick. I like it. Bet you do. Nope. It's pussy for me. I have beauty waiting for me back at Winterfell. If I ever get back there. Yellow hair, blue eyes, tallest women you've ever seen, almost as tall as you. Brienne of Tarth. You know her? You're with Brienne of loving Tarth. Well, not with her yet, but I see the way she looks at me. How does she look at you? Like she wants to carve you up and eat your liver? You do know her. We've met. I want to make babies with her. Think of 'em, great, big monsters. They'll conquer the world! How did a mad fucker like you live this long? I'm good at killing people. Edit: Davos busting out "fewer" on Jon Snow like Stannis used to him  
th3t00t fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 05:51
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Just got to "hold the door" Christ that was dumb.
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Mar 12, 2019 06:03
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Katt posted:Just got to "hold the door" Christ that was dumb. Welcome, brother! 
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Mar 12, 2019 06:05
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You know something is wrong when I feel disappointed that Brann and friends got away from the zombie horde. Like come on! You almost had them! Are you even trying? She's pulling a sled and you broke down the door like 50 meters behind her! There were thousands of you, where did the others go?
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Mar 12, 2019 06:50
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Katt posted:You know something is wrong when I feel disappointed that Brann and friends got away from the zombie horde. Like come on! You almost had them! Are you even trying? She's pulling a sled and you broke down the door like 50 meters behind her! There were thousands of you, where did the others go? Listen there's no way that zombies which crawl onto walls and ceilings like spiders and can tumble down cliffs unharmed and feel no cold nor hunger could catch a tiny girl pulling a crippled boy on a sled in a blizzard. Be realistic.
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Mar 12, 2019 07:10
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Rattle shirt didn't play much of a role in the show. A few snide remark and a heated debate with Tormund and he bowed out. It's almost like someone went "remember that guy? Oh yeah we should probably wrap up his character arc"
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Mar 12, 2019 07:20
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pseudanonymous posted:Listen there's no way that zombies which crawl onto walls and ceilings like spiders and can tumble down cliffs unharmed and feel no cold nor hunger could catch a tiny girl pulling a crippled boy on a sled in a blizzard. Be realistic. They sure showed Jojen "I'll just lie here for a while" Reed though 
PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 07:25
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Katt posted:Rattle shirt didn't play much of a role in the show. A few snide remark and a heated debate with Tormund and he bowed out. I'm not doing the math but it might be because he was more important in the books so they included him in the show, then they found out there's no way the books are getting finished and they were told the major plot points and he didn't matter, so they wrapped him up.
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Mar 12, 2019 07:28
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TK-42-1 posted:The Dance of the Dragons war was caused by the king legitimizing all his bastards before he died causing a massive succession crisis that ended with like one dragon alive maybe. Nope, Viserys I didn't have any bastards. People just weren't comfortable with his daughter succeeding to the throne and backed her younger brother instead. You're talking about the first Blackfyre Rebellion and after looking it over again it seems that you're right on that account, Aegon IV legitimized all of his bastards shortly before he died. Considering the immense strife that followed I kinda get why people would be wary of the whole legitimizing thing though. PittTheElder posted:They sure showed Jojen "I'll just lie here for a while" Reed though I hate it when these kinds of things happen because the person just stands/sits/lies there.
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Mar 12, 2019 10:27
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Katt posted:Rattle shirt didn't play much of a role in the show. A few snide remark and a heated debate with Tormund and he bowed out. It would be so much better if they followed the book, and Tormund just beat Mance to death.
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Mar 12, 2019 11:27
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th3t00t posted:Just finished my re-watch of GOT to get ready for season 8. If you can ignore the plot holes and lack of realism in travel time in season 7 it's enjoyable to see things I've been waiting 15 years for finally happen. The expedition to the north with the dream GoT RPG party indeed was dumb but fun as hell
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Mar 12, 2019 12:42
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Elias_Maluco posted:The expedition to the north with the dream GoT RPG party indeed was dumb but fun as hell All it was missing was Jamie and Brienne.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:44
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If they had just brought one more redshirt Thoros might have lived.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:51
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Zenithe posted:It would be so much better if they followed the book, and Tormund just beat Mance to death. Isn't Mance alive in the books and murdering people in winterfell?
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Mar 12, 2019 13:19
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A Typical Goon posted:Isn't Mance alive in the books and murdering people in winterfell? I believe he went to winterfell with a team of elite fighting wildling women and Ramsay caught him and locked him up in a cage with only a quilt made out of the skins of the women for warmth.
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Mar 12, 2019 15:19
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PittTheElder posted:They sure showed Jojen "I'll just lie here for a while" Reed though Where as Meera Reed is like the only good person in Westeros and Bran told her off.
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Mar 12, 2019 15:38
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kcroy posted:He could have just lied and said it was the son of one of his bannerman ( perhaps one who died in the war ) , which would have made everything much easier for everyone. I think it's lovely that Ned was ok with Jon going to the wall. I mean, he didn't even get him laid first. gently caress that guy. I don't think it is productive to try and logic this stuff out we should remember Ned ultimately was a shy awkward guy who'd just lost most of his family and never expected to be in this position, and thus was not running this stuff through Correct_Feudal_Decisions.exe he couldn't announce Jon's real parentage because of Robert he couldn't fabricate a lesser parentage because that would have other hard-to-foresee consequences w/r/t his bannermens' own successions, but more importantly because this would affect the quality and stability of upbringing Jon could expect to have, which Ned wouldn't want to jeopardize. if Jon is believed to be Ned's son, particularly if rumor has his mother being a prestigious noblewoman like Ashara Dayne, that gives Jon a lot more prestige than he'd have if Ned had gone "err my dead retainer Theo Wull or whoever hosed a whore in Dorne and they made this kid". That prestige is important even for bastards, and has ramifications for Jon w/r/t marriage prospects, the amount of resources that can be dedicated to his upbringing, etc. The way Ned does it, Jon gets a lot of the intrinsic benefits of being a Stark and gets to be raised alongside his most immediate family. the safest thing to do would probably have been to call in a favor with some Vale house and have Jon raised there in relative anonymity (using the Ned/Wylla backstory) and then have him shipped to join the Maesters at the appropriate age. But there are a whole lot of reasons Ned would never do that. I would guess allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch was a sorta last minute panic move once Ned was forced back into Seven Kingdoms politics. The original plan would probably have been like...marry Jon off to the second daughter of some tertiary bannerman and give him a small keep in the woods someplace where he'd never have to interact with anyone from the South.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:12
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I wouldn't say "allowed to join the watch" is right word. Looks more like Jon was groomed to be disposed of into the watch, Katt fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 16:31
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Katt posted:I wouldn't say "allowed to join the watch" is right word. Disposed might be a little harsh - if anything hes meant to command the watch. Or be Lord Commander Benjen's head ranger or run one of the other castles for Benjen.
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Mar 12, 2019 17:08
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I still don't see Neds part as altruistic. It's more like Ned: On hey look at the watch how amazing. How honourable. Boy would I respect the hell out of anyone who went to join the watch *wink* Jon: Dad I was thinking of maybe joining the wat... Ned: You do? great here's the horse. So long!
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Mar 12, 2019 17:17
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Did Ned know that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, and that Jon wasn't still his sister's bastard, but rather a legitimized Targ offspring? Could he have tried to get him to go to the Wall just because that's where bastards go, and Jon was a bastard, just not *his* bastard?
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Mar 12, 2019 17:21
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I think the show and the books made it pretty clear that Ned's decision to keep Jon close was emotional, rather than logical. His sister was very important to him, even moreso when she died because he'd just lost his father and older brother, and been thrust into a position he never thought he'd have. Then he's given a baby, the last living part of his sister, and he doesn't have Targaryen weirdo purple eyes; he looks like Lyanna. He's not going to send him to the Vale to be Arryn's ward like he was, and he's certainly not going to tell Robert, who was already in a dragon killing mood even before Lyanna died. We never see Robert learn about her death, but I'm pretty sure that even had Ned been thinking about telling him then, that anger and murderous rage towards anything with dragon blood would have scared Ned shitless for his sister's baby. Trying to logic this out is sorta forgetting that these are supposed to be people, not fantasy robots. Unless that turns out to be the big twist at the end.
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Mar 12, 2019 17:25
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Trudis posted:I think the show and the books made it pretty clear that Ned's decision to keep Jon close was emotional, rather than logical. His sister was very important to him, even moreso when she died because he'd just lost his father and older brother, and been thrust into a position he never thought he'd have. Then he's given a baby, the last living part of his sister, and he doesn't have Targaryen weirdo purple eyes; he looks like Lyanna. He's not going to send him to the Vale to be Arryn's ward like he was, and he's certainly not going to tell Robert, who was already in a dragon killing mood even before Lyanna died. We never see Robert learn about her death, but I'm pretty sure that even had Ned been thinking about telling him then, that anger and murderous rage towards anything with dragon blood would have scared Ned shitless for his sister's baby. I get that, but theres still not reason for Ned to keep his wife in the dark is there? And then Rob does something truly idiotic because of Jon's treatment later but... you know, Starks.
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Mar 12, 2019 17:30
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Cat almost killed baby Jon with super plague using her church powers. That could have been avoided if Ned had been honest.
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Mar 12, 2019 17:33
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