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Nemo2342 posted:Raising Steam was just a slog. I remember becoming exasperated at one point when it felt like he was trying to just cram in every character possible (looking at you, Vetinari) just for the sake of having them there. Some of that was because by that point he knew any book could be the last. So even though he was writing Twilight Gardens, a parallelquel to Raising Steam in which Vetinari would have appeared briefly, he still wanted to get everyone in the Industrial Revolution sequence involved.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:54
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Fighting Trousers posted:And Detritus! See I'm not about to read the entire loving series in order to read Night Watch, person whose opinion on book reading order who made an infographic guy
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Mar 17, 2019 00:38
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Jedit posted:he was writing Twilight Gardens, a parallelquel to Raising Steam in which Vetinari would have appeared briefly WHAT
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Mar 17, 2019 00:48
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A man with Alzheimer's writing a book called Twilight Gardens is a little on the nose.
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Mar 17, 2019 00:51
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Bilirubin posted:See I'm not about to read the entire loving series in order to read Night Watch, person whose opinion on book reading order who made an infographic guy Like perhaps one of the guards novels to introduce the characters. I really can't see the point of trying to optimize what are essentially a bunch of standalone books.
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Mar 17, 2019 06:12
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Is this turning into the bad thread? Looks like it. As for Night Watch it's not going to have the same impact unless you read the rest of the watch series before it.
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Mar 17, 2019 06:16
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Bilirubin posted:See I'm not about to read the entire loving series in order to read Night Watch, person whose opinion on book reading order who made an infographic guy This is a weirdly strong reaction to an infographic that tells you the timelines of the books You don't have to read the whole series to read and enjoy Night Watch but a new reader might appreciate knowing that Vimes started out as a corrupt alcoholic cop in a corrupt ineffective police force.
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Mar 17, 2019 07:04
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Snow Cone Capone posted:This is a weirdly strong reaction to an infographic that tells you the timelines of the books No, that graphic says all of the major story lines feed into Night Watch and to read it optimally you should follow their recommended order. My strong reaction becomes less weird (since you appear to agree with my stated position) if you can read concept maps or flow charts E. It literally says it's a reading order guide
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Mar 17, 2019 07:32
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Bilirubin posted:See I'm not about to read the entire loving series in order to read Night Watch, person whose opinion on book reading order who made an infographic guy Then don't? Fighting Trousers posted:And Detritus! I don't remember which book, but Detritus appeared much earlier as a splatter at the Mended Drum.
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Mar 17, 2019 09:39
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FactsAreUseless posted:A man with Alzheimer's writing a book called Twilight Gardens is a little on the nose. I'm sure it will make you feel even better to know that it was set in a retirement home, then.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:04
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Bilirubin posted:No, that graphic says all of the major story lines feed into Night Watch and to read it optimally you should follow their recommended order. My strong reaction becomes less weird (since you appear to agree with my stated position) if you can read concept maps or flow charts Hmmmm an infographic says that a series with dozens of books says that one near the end has potential dependencies of a lot of the earlier ones. I will now have a strong reaction to this completely surprising information and then get defensive.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:12
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Nemo2342 posted:Unseen Academicals feels like it would have fared better if it had come earlier in the series, back when he was doing things like Moving Pictures. On a personal level, it also didn't help that it was about a topic that I have little familiarity with.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:49
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Jedit posted:I'm sure it will make you feel even better to know that it was set in a retirement home, then.
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Mar 17, 2019 11:28
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Bilirubin posted:No, that graphic says all of the major story lines feed into Night Watch and to read it optimally you should follow their recommended order. My strong reaction becomes less weird (since you appear to agree with my stated position) if you can read concept maps or flow charts No, it says that several of the major story lines have minor connections to Night Watch. That's what happens when you have 30 books written in the same world, sometimes there are connections and familiar characters/locations that pop up in other, later-published books. You can be lovely about "reading concept maps or flow charts" but it's a timeline infographic. The Night Watch series of books follows Vimes' rise through the ranks and that's the loving order of books it happens in.
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Mar 17, 2019 12:27
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FactsAreUseless posted:lmfao no way, come on Terry Yep, it was a retirement home for non-humans and the plot was a murder mystery. I gave a little more detail in 2016, if you want to look back. I misremembered the title, though - it was Twilight Canyons, not Gardens.
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Mar 17, 2019 12:32
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Snow Cone Capone posted:No, it says that several of the major story lines have minor connections to Night Watch. That's what happens when you have 30 books written in the same world, sometimes there are connections and familiar characters/locations that pop up in other, later-published books. You can be lovely about "reading concept maps or flow charts" but it's a timeline infographic. The Night Watch series of books follows Vimes' rise through the ranks and that's the loving order of books it happens in. When I first started reading these books I randomly bought Night Watch because I needed another book and it was all they had on the shelf in the store I went into. Folks ITT "reacted strongly" to the thought I would do so without sufficient background reading in all of the other relevant story lines, much advice was given and that infographic was even posted at the time as a way to order your reading (which as I said it literally calls itself, and which some goons were following when giving their advice). Just 5 pages ago I brought this up again, because it made no sense to me, and got it narrowed down the Watch books (obviously, never in question) and the Death books because the tie in to Thief of Time. Great. Doable. So I'm glad goons here have calmed down in terms of what is necessary background. Alhazred posted:Then don't? 
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Mar 17, 2019 16:29
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Honestly, I think that arguing you need to read everything in the Watch and Death series to enjoy Night Watch does a disservice to the book. While it's nice to have some context for events or characters, the book is remarkably self-contained. Sure, there's an extra emotional oomph from having followed Vimes' career from Guards, Guards! onward, but it's not necessary-and even the events of Thief of Time are largely incidental. Ultimately, Night Watch is an incredibly strong book that stands up very well even without having read the rest of the series. If you want to read everything that comes before it, great! They're all great books that I love. But don't let anyone tell you that you need to read them, because you honestly don't-they're just afraid you won't love it as much if you don't go into it the same way they did.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:49
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Bilirubin posted:When I first started reading these books I randomly bought Night Watch because I needed another book and it was all they had on the shelf in the store I went into. Folks ITT "reacted strongly" to the thought I would do so without sufficient background reading in all of the other relevant story lines, much advice was given and that infographic was even posted at the time as a way to order your reading (which as I said it literally calls itself, and which some goons were following when giving their advice). Just 5 pages ago I brought this up again, because it made no sense to me, and got it narrowed down the Watch books (obviously, never in question) and the Death books because the tie in to Thief of Time. Great. Doable. You're still severely overreacting to the fact that people suggested "chronological reading order," and tbqh I looked back at your posts and it's mostly people going "hey awesome Night Watch rules but FYI it is one of the later books in the Watch series" Acebuckeye13 posted:Honestly, I think that arguing you need to read everything in the Watch and Death series to enjoy Night Watch does a disservice to the book. While it's nice to have some context for events or characters, the book is remarkably self-contained. Sure, there's an extra emotional oomph from having followed Vimes' career from Guards, Guards! onward, but it's not necessary-and even the events of Thief of Time are largely incidental. I agree with this entirely, it's not like anyone is going "how dare you read Night Watch first, you pleb, you rear end, you clod," e: every character gets a general introduction of their own in every book anyway so it's not like you could read Night Watch and then Guards Guards and be even remotely confused or anything.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:46
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I think Feet of Clay is my favorite Watch book and I'm due for a re-read.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:52
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Honestly Night Watch was the third Discworld I ever read after Going Postal and Thief of Time (they were all my library had) and it was still a very good book. Just... Just go for it.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:06
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I started with the first book then read chronologically and stopped reading halfway through Moving Pictures. Couldn’t stay interested. Did I make mistakes? Convince me. Book was bad.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:13
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Bum the Sad posted:I started with the first book then read chronologically and stopped reading halfway through Moving Pictures. Couldn’t stay interested. The first couple of books aren't fantastic, and Moving Pictures is pretty meh. Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic were really Pratchett's first forays into fleshing out the whole Discworld, and the wordplay isn't nearly as developed. The Fifth Elephant and Carpe Jugulum are, IMO, good choices to just jump in, since they cover a fairly large amount of ground and for a lot of it, the main characters are as bewildered by new settings/information as the reader, so there's a lot less "well you should already know by now about Dwarf culture" going on and a good amount of "well the main characters have no idea what the gently caress is going on so you're learning about the world as they do." Between those 2 books you can then pretty much jump in anywhere else and have a familiarity with just about anything going on. (They're also both excellent books regardless of how familiar you are/aren't with the rest of the series). Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 19:22
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YggiDee posted:Honestly Night Watch was the third Discworld I ever read after Going Postal and Thief of Time (they were all my library had) and it was still a very good book. Just... Just go for it. I also read the first books out of order because of my library. Worked out just fine. Acebuckeye13 posted:Ultimately, Night Watch is an incredibly strong book that stands up very well even without having read the rest of the series. If you want to read everything that comes before it, great! They're all great books that I love. But don't let anyone tell you that you need to read them, because you honestly don't-they're just afraid you won't love it as much if you don't go into it the same way they did. Yeah, it isn't homework. You're supposed to read books because you find it enjoyable.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:29
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Snow Cone Capone posted:The first couple of books aren't fantastic, and Moving Pictures is pretty meh. Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic were really Pratchett's first forays into fleshing out the whole Discworld, and the wordplay isn't nearly as developed. The Fifth Elephant and Carpe Jugulum are, IMO, good choices to just jump in, since they cover a fairly large amount of ground and for a lot of it, the main characters are as bewildered by new settings/information as the reader, so there's a lot less "well you should already know by now about Dwarf culture" going on and a good amount of "well the main characters have no idea what the gently caress is going on so you're learning about the world as they do." Between those 2 books you can then pretty much jump in anywhere else and have a familiarity with just about anything going on. (They're also both excellent books regardless of how familiar you are/aren't with the rest of the series). I think I already have Reaper Man and Witches abroad. I bought several books ahead. Maybe I’ll just suck it up and finish Moving Pictures.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:57
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Bum the Sad posted:I think I already have Reaper Man and Witches abroad. I bought several books ahead. Maybe I’ll just suck it up and finish Moving Pictures. Those are both great! If you don't like Moving Pictures, don't finish it. No reason to push yourself through a book you're not enjoying!
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Mar 17, 2019 20:00
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I'm going to make a hot take, though, and say that Discworld was winding down anyway by the time Terry passed. I haven't re-read them yet but I recall Snuff, Unseen Academicals and Raising Steam as being just OK, and I don't think it was the brain disease as much as it was just running out of material... I dunno, I think he was winding up to go a lot further in his exploration of personal identity in general and gender in specific. Stuff like how, in dwarf culture, Xander77 posted:Earlier in the thread someone made an effort post about how Pratchett didn't really seem to care about or understand the subject either, so it also doesn't work if you're interested in football. Unseen Academicals takedown: main body and slight expansion.
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Mar 18, 2019 04:45
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Trin Tragula posted:Unseen Academicals takedown: main body and slight expansion. You haven't become any more right since then, you know.
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Mar 18, 2019 09:01
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Jedit posted:You haven't become any more right since then, you know.
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Mar 18, 2019 12:07
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Trin Tragula posted:I dunno, I think he was winding up to go a lot further in his exploration of personal identity in general and gender in specific. Stuff like how, in dwarf culture, I always sort of assumed that Carrot has the morphic field of a dwarf and exudes dwarfishness. Culturally Carrot is a dwarf and he presumably broadcasts it somehow.
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Mar 18, 2019 14:22
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They explored it pretty deeply in several books already, IIRC the general conclusion was that the same aura of royalty/general niceness that lets him talk down a robbery by appealing to the robber's mother's feelings, also accounts for his acceptance in dwarf culture. He's so drat earnest and sure of himself that nobody would ever dream of telling him that dwarfs aren't 6'6", and always always have a beard. Plus the orthodoxy of Dwarf religion was also already explored pretty deeply, including its reaction to the woman dwarf liberation thing, so I don't know how much else there was to talk about. Pratchett seemed to be pushing heavily towards YA stuff near the end, with both the Tiffany Aching books and some of the non-Discworld stuff he was doing (The Long Earth series). The Discworld non-Aching stuff was entirely skewed towards the Ankh-Morpork characters, and were either "pushing the city into modernity" (Making Money, Raising Steam, Unseen Academicals to an extent), or mediocre stories with long-established characters (Snuff, Unseen Academicals). Clearly he saw the Witches as the characters with the most future potential, but I wonder if the Aching books were more "stories he wanted to tell that fit into Discworld" rather than stuff he had specifically in mind for Discworld.
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Mar 18, 2019 14:32
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Jedit posted:You haven't become any more right since then, you know. Do you actually want to talk about it, or just snipe? I'd genuinely like to hear about how other people read that book because the allusions seem so clear and obvious to me.
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Mar 18, 2019 16:10
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How is the Discworld young adult stuff anyway? Should I put them in my chronological read order when I eventually get to them?
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Mar 18, 2019 16:18
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Bum the Sad posted:How is the Discworld young adult stuff anyway? Should I put them in my chronological read order when I eventually get to them? Yeah, they're arguably some of the best stuff in the setting. He basically started writing the Tiffany Aching books when the primary witches' character arcs were all kinda played out as much as possible, so they have the benefit of both Pratchett's years of experience and a free narrative hand unconstrained by having covered the same ground in prior books. Bum the Sad posted:I started with the first book then read chronologically and stopped reading halfway through Moving Pictures. Couldn’t stay interested. I generally say the best starting place is Guards, Guards. Everything before that point is basically warmup. Some of it's good, some of it's bad, but it isn't until Guards, Guards that Pratchett is consistently firing on all cylinders. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 16:23
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Young Adult Discworld is Regular Discworld, just with chapters and sometimes he was asked to use smaller words. The Tiffany Aching books are excellent.
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Mar 18, 2019 16:23
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I've heard they're good as Discworld books but also quite good as YA "I have all these new feelings" stuff.
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Mar 18, 2019 16:24
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I've heard they're good as Discworld books but also quite good as YA "I have all these new feelings" stuff. The Tiffany Aching books is actually a lot more adult than the rest of the series. One of the books opens with a lynch mob that wants to kill a father who molested his own daughter for example. Also, unlike the rest of the books there isn't a lot of people or entities that are just evil. She's taken over by a malevolent spirit in one book for example. But it doesn't force her to do bad stuff. It only makes it easier for her to act on her own bad impulses.
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Mar 18, 2019 16:49
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Alhazred posted:The Tiffany Aching books is actually a lot more adult than the rest of the series. One of the books opens with a lynch mob that wants to kill a father who molested his own daughter for example. Also, unlike the rest of the books there isn't a lot of people or entities that are just evil. She's taken over by a malevolent spirit in one book for example. But it doesn't force her to do bad stuff. It only makes it easier for her to act on her own bad impulses. YA fiction that doesn't mollycoddle the reader? Whoa e: I haven't read Nation in a while but I recall it getting pretty dark for a YA novel as well
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Mar 18, 2019 16:52
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Snow Cone Capone posted:e: I haven't read Nation in a while but I recall it getting pretty dark for a YA novel as well Nation is supposed to be YA? It's loving dark as hell. And also really really good.
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Mar 18, 2019 17:07
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Snow Cone Capone posted:
It gets really loving dark. At one point one of the protagonists goes through a trauma so big that he dissociates.
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Mar 18, 2019 17:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, they're arguably some of the best stuff in the setting. He basically started writing the Tiffany Aching books when the primary witches' character arcs were all kinda played out as much as possible, so they have the benefit of both Pratchett's years of experience and a free narrative hand unconstrained by having covered the same ground in prior books. I thought they were fantastic, up until I Shall Wear Midnight. I haven't read Shepherd's Crown yet though.
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Mar 18, 2019 17:38
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