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Cease to Hope posted:A more interesting director could make this scene about saving people from the disaster that is the Kryptonians fighting the military, rather than Superman Punch Fight Times. There is nothing wrong with the direction of the scene. You’re just rambling incoherently.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:01
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It should also be noted that Cease to Hope's criticism is commonly applied to Superman in general, not just Snyder's version. "If he's such a superman, why do people still die in wars? Why hasn't he established global peace? Why can't he save everyone?" Clark (most versions) can't even save his adopted father. Death is inevitable, violence is a fact of the world. To be mad at Superman because these things still exist is missing the point. If the female kryptonian would've directly threatened any of the cowering civilians, what do you think Snyder's version would have done? If there were civilians on the street directly in the line of fire during the gunship scene, would he stand there and do nothing? Did he do nothing when the pilot fell? Does he not wrestle with these very questions throughout the entire movie? ruddiger fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 03:04
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ruddiger posted:E: poo poo now I'm the one half remembering movies. The astronauts and the burning building are from BvS, right? My bad. It's cool, I half-remembered BVS myself in the first place. ungulateman posted:It's worth remembering that the Kryptonians' plan from the start is to kill Literally Everyone, so the greatest number of lives saved can be achieved by stopping the Kryptonians as effectively as possible. This is why Clark flies halfway around the world specifically to go and stop the World Engine, because the giant machine gouting enormous jets of terraforming material into the atmosphere in India is just as big a problem as the ship directing it in Metropolis. Climate change as a thing you can smash with a fist is the most superhero-as-supercop metaphor ever. ruddiger posted:Clark (most versions) can't even save his adopted father. Death is inevitable, violence is a fact of the world. To be mad at Superman because these things still exist is missing the point. If the female kryptonian would've directly threatened any of the cowering civilians, what do you think Snyder's version would have done? If there were civilians on the street during the gunship scene, would he stand there and do nothing? Did he do nothing when the pilot fell? Does he not wrestle with these very questions throughout the entire movie? I think a more interesting movie, one more consistent with the themes raised earlier in the film, would focus on questions like this rather than whether Superman is going to smash Large Dude and Fast Woman before they smash him. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 03:06
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Cease to Hope posted:Climate change as a thing you can smash with a fist is the most superhero-as-supercop metaphor ever. The climate change caused by an automated facility extracting resources and generating pollution in India, placed there by colonists. You are having chronic difficulties.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:09
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Cease to Hope posted:It's cool, I half-remembered BVS myself in the first place. Right before the gunship attack, Clark loses his temper and shoots his eye lasers, which clearly gently caress up (and can more than likely kill) both kryptonians. The soldierly thing to do would be to light both of them up with his eye lasers nonstop. But he doesn't do that.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:11
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ruddiger posted:Right before the gunship attack, Clark loses his temper and shoots his eye lasers, which clearly gently caress up (and can more than likely kill) both kryptonians. More the point, Clark is a civilian and this is absurd. Police and military are specific things, and there is like no way to get them mixed up here.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:17
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The climate scene is pretty much the last time he causes any damage to anything from that point on, which is kind of funny. He uses everything to destroy the terraforming scene, and then only razes the side of a building that is possibly occupied (no people shown, though), causes a shockwave running into Zod after Zod is destroying a building clawing his way up, and then tossing Zod into Bruce's satellite. Maybe the place they fall into from space, but that one is iffy.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:21
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Cease to Hope posted:Revolutionaries are still soldiers. Cesar Chavez and MLK were soldiers? I mean, I'm sure the people who wanted them murdered saw them as militant, but their "militant" ideas were basic things like workers right and to be seen as an equal. Fred Hampton was not a soldier but they sure as poo poo treated him like one when they murdered him, but even in Fred's own words, he was not a soldier. He is not the pig. He is the people. He is a revolutionary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTK4IHaRa4
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Mar 27, 2019 03:25
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Darko posted:The climate scene is pretty much the last time he causes any damage to anything from that point on, Not true, he's involved in an accident at a work site.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:27
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Schwarzwald posted:Not true, he's involved in an accident at a work site. 
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Mar 27, 2019 03:31
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ruddiger posted:Right before the gunship attack, Clark loses his temper and shoots his eye lasers, which clearly gently caress up (and can more than likely kill) both kryptonians. They don't seem to be any more inconvenienced by it than Superman is when he's shot in the forehead by the gunship immediately after that. The next time we see Large Guy (throwing a van) and Faora (watching a helicopter crash), they're not visibly affected. Superman does lose his temper, though, right around the 1:30 mark in the movie. In that scene, he punches Zod in the face a whole bunch of times while flying through a cornfield and a silo and a 7-11. ("You think you can threaten my mother?") It's how the fight moves from the Kent farm to Smallville proper. Also, there are two gunship attacks and I was remembering the first one! At ~1:32, an attack plane shoots up the street where we just saw all the civilians ducking into the surrounding stores to hide. For all Snyder mocks people for indulging in the fantasy of deadly force that doesn't kill people, that gunship sure shoots neatly down the middle of the now-conveniently-empty street without visibly endangering anyone. e: Another example of Superman-the-puncher instead of Clark-the-rescuer. Large Guy wrecks a bomber, which crashes into the street with a fireball engulfing several of the buildings we just saw all the civilians run into. Superman is nowhere to be seen. But when Faora is about to attack the other bomber, Superman dives in to counterattack her, leading immediately into ruddiger's clip. Snyder again frames Superman as the hero who fights, not the hero who saves. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 03:32
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We’re at the point where dude is asking like “How can you punch the climate? Sounds like something a cop would do!” We are through the fuckin rubicon here. Language is just breaking down entirely as crazed fans increasingly sandwich new definition for shoe particles into the catapult.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:32
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Schwarzwald posted:Not true, he's involved in an accident at a work site. 1) It was clearly an accident 2) Zod caused that like 99 percent of everything else.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:34
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ruddiger posted:Cesar Chavez and MLK were soldiers? No. But Superman doesn't spend any time trying to convince people of the rightness of his cause through rhetoric, either. Just punching the bad people, as hard as he can, as many times as he can. I don't think it's reasonable to call him a revolutionary. SuperMechagodzilla posted:We’re at the point where dude is asking like “How can you punch the climate? Sounds like something a cop would do!” Representing climate change as a thing a hero can punch to death is a very orthodox superhero-as-supercop story. It's Snyder mirroring conventional Superman stories.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:38
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Cease to Hope posted:Representing climate change as a thing a hero can punch to death is a very orthodox superhero-as-supercop story. It's Snyder mirroring conventional Superman stories. Superman isn’t a cop. Superman doesn’t punch climate change. Cops don’t punch climate change. Climate change isn’t a thing that can die. What happens in the film is that Superman destroys a third-world factory generating pollution. Police typically don’t destroy factories because a key part of the job is to protect private property. It’s difficult to believe that you don’t understand what a policeman is.
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Mar 27, 2019 03:46
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If you want to see Superman fight climate change just watch Superman Returns. It's literally the setpiece that bridges the second and third act. Edit: but don't because it's boring AF
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Mar 27, 2019 04:41
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Cease to Hope posted:e: Another example of Superman-the-puncher instead of Clark-the-rescuer. Large Guy wrecks a bomber, which crashes into the street with a fireball engulfing several of the buildings we just saw all the civilians run into. Superman is nowhere to be seen. But when Faora is about to attack the other bomber, Superman dives in to counterattack her, leading immediately into ruddiger's clip. Snyder again frames Superman as the hero who fights, not the hero who saves. This whole point seems to be based around the idea that Superman should have appeared exactly where he was needed at the right time, even though he was in a chaotic fight and maybe -- unfortunately -- he couldn't arrive in time to save the first group of buildings. On the flip side tho, by attacking Faora when she is about to attack the other bomber, it by inference prevents a similar tragedy, certainly? This is an argument that gets used a lot: basically that if Superman doesn't miraculously save everyone, it's a reflection of him not caring. But he obviously saves multiple people during that fight and even occasionally gets clocked for it. He's just not the omnipotent Superman who can do everything. Cease to Hope posted:Representing climate change as a thing a hero can punch to death is a very orthodox superhero-as-supercop story. It's Snyder mirroring conventional Superman stories. Not to pick on you twice but I'm also curious in what way cops are opposed to climate change. I both agree that climate change can potentially be personified (or rather, you can create a villain that represents the usual causes of climate change) and that superheros are also usually cops. But I'm not getting the connection between the two, seems like a mixed metaphor.
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Mar 27, 2019 04:48
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Man of Steel is not about Superman, it's about Clark Kent, a fallible person. Clark Kent doesn't really become the pop culture idealized Superman until he sacrifices himself in BvS.
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Mar 27, 2019 04:51
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Fart City posted:Man of Steel is not about Superman, it's about Clark Kent, a fallible person. Clark Kent doesn't really become the pop culture idealized Superman until he sacrifices himself in BvS. I was always disappointed that man of steel ended with the dual identity thing returning I thought it would have be interesting to tell a story where Clark and Superman is not a duality, but instead Superman is Clark Kent, the adopted kid from Kansas
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Mar 27, 2019 04:53
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Guy A. Person posted:This whole point seems to be based around the idea that Superman should have appeared exactly where he was needed at the right time, even though he was in a chaotic fight and maybe -- unfortunately -- he couldn't arrive in time to save the first group of buildings. On the flip side tho, by attacking Faora when she is about to attack the other bomber, it by inference prevents a similar tragedy, certainly? Remember, I'm criticizing Snyder, not Superman. It isn't that Superman is a failure for not saving those people, but rather Snyder's conception of Superman's heroism is Superman hitting Faora really hard to end the fight instead of trying to save bystanders from the disaster that is the fight. Snyder could have had Superman heroically diving to save those people then punched into the IHOP by Faora, for example, but instead he's heroically tackling the fascist. I think another illustrative moment is earlier, in the interrogation room. He asserts himself as Superman by using his strength to intimidate the soldiers, rather than his ability to withstand their mistreatment. He breaks his cuffs and stares down the commander to make it clear they can't control him, rather than, say, letting the sedative syringe they're preparing break on his body. Superman forces people to do the right thing or else. (It's also why I don't think any of the Christ stuff works at all.) Guy A. Person posted:Not to pick on you twice but I'm also curious in what way cops are opposed to climate change. I both agree that climate change can potentially be personified (or rather, you can create a villain that represents the usual causes of climate change) and that superheros are also usually cops. But I'm not getting the connection between the two, seems like a mixed metaphor. Someone (Fart City I think?) was talking about superheroes as the fantasy of a moral cop. Climate change or colonialism as a thing that can be punched to death is two fantasies: the fantasy that such problems can easily be solved with violence, and the fantasy that someone with the power to fix them would fix them. Obviously you can't punch climate change and cops don't want to solve real problems. That's why it's fantasy. e: it was Fart City. Fart City posted:This is a really good point. One of the main fantasies regarding Batman is that the character is able to operate beyond the "limitations" of the law, but maintain a kind of core, ironclad morality that prevents them from ever abusing that power. He's the idealized enforcement agent, because although his crusade is personal, his actions are never presented as being personally driven, but rather always in service of the greater good. Batman never beats up someone because he takes joy in it; he does it because it's what is "best"for society. This is, to my mind, the Supercop. Not just superpowered, but supermoral. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 05:08
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Cease to Hope posted:Remember, I'm criticizing Snyder, not Superman. It isn't that Superman is a failure for not saving those people, but rather Snyder's conception of Superman's heroism is Superman hitting Faora really hard to end the fight instead of saving bystanders from disaster that is the fight. Snyder could have had Superman heroically diving to save those people then punched into the IHOP by Faora, for example, but instead he's heroically tackling the fascist. Ok I can see this: the argument is that Snyder could write him in the right place/right time to save people but chose for him instead to be action punch man. I still think it's consistent with the themes of the movie being that Clark can't necessarily be everything at once and that things are messier than that. Also, again he's explicitly shown saving the pilot and gets clobbered for it. Him punching Faoras stops her from throwing a bomber into a building because that's the type of poo poo these guys are doing; fighting them is saving people. quote:I think another illustrative moment is earlier, in the interrogation room. He asserts himself as Superman by using his strength to intimidate the soldiers, rather than his ability to withstand their mistreatment. He breaks his cuffs and stares down the commander to make it clear they can't control him, rather than, say, letting the sedative syringe they're preparing break on his body. Superman forces people to do the right thing or else. Now this I think is a stretch. Clark is already being super meek by letting them cuff him and lead him into the interrogation room, him ripping the cuffs is done in the most nonchalant way possible, he basically just separates his hands. I don't think it would have been any less intimidating letting a syringe break on himself than just calmly standing up and addressing the commander directly. The message was basically "I'm willing to cooperate but your methods obviously can't truly work on me (and therefor won't work on the other Kryptonians)" and I think the syringe thing would have basically the same message. quote:Someone (Fart City I think?) was talking about superheroes as the fantasy of a moral cop. Climate change or colonialism as a thing that can be punched to death is two fantasies: the fantasy that such problems can easily be solved with violence, and the fantasy that someone with the power to fix them would fix them. Ah okay I missed this.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:22
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Cops enforce laws, not morality. Superman does not blow up the World Engine because it’s an illegal World Engine. American police officers do not have jurisdiction over the Indian Ocean. It’s simply incorrect (and bizarre) to use the term ‘cop’ to refer to anyone with morality.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:29
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https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1110633149287944192
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Mar 27, 2019 05:30
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Something I don't really get is the oft-memed misinterpretation of the church scene. It starts with Clark entering the church and looking around pensively:  He's looking for an answer to the threat that his being, completely divorced from his own intentions, has brought to earth. He begins to talk to the priest, and during that conversation has a flashback where he is assaulted by bullies:  Clark knows he can dismantle this kid; there's even a lingering shot conveying that:  But we pull back and reveal that while he's getting the poo poo kicked out of his his father is right there watching  His father comes over and asks if he's okay. Clark says he wanted to fight the kid. His father says, well hell, what would have happened then? Good or bad results, no way to tell. To a child a parent is absolute authority. Whatever they say is law, above heaven and earth. This is how the scene ends:  Clark goes to the church to find a way to make sense of what is happening in the absence of his father, and like his father, it offers a vague noncommittal answer. The difference is that as an adult he rejects it as a solution to his problems and sets out to solve them. The scene isn't some half-assed Christ metaphor, it's a rebuke of the concept that blind faith will solve everything.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:33
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Cease to Hope posted:Someone (Fart City I think?) was talking about superheroes as the fantasy of a moral cop. Climate change or colonialism as a thing that can be punched to death is two fantasies: the fantasy that such problems can easily be solved with violence, and the fantasy that someone with the power to fix them would fix them. Superheroes often fulfill the role of cops in stories, but superheroes are not inherently cops. Batman is a superhero cop. In the Snyder movies, Batman doesn't much care for Superman.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:37
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Guy A. Person posted:Ok I can see this: the argument is that Snyder could write him in the right place/right time to save people but chose for him instead to be action punch man. I still think it's consistent with the themes of the movie being that Clark can't necessarily be everything at once and that things are messier than that. Part of the problem is that the Kryptonians aren't particularly menacing either. Faora talks a big game about how Superman is weak for protecting these people, but she's not directly threatening any of them except the soldiers attacking her. (And it's a PG-13 movie, so no trail of carnage, either.) I'm reminded of Avengers, where the alien invaders mostly destroy windows and parked cars. This could easily be a punchy-punch fight where Faora and Nameless Large Guy realize that hurting the bystanders would hurt Clark and keep menacing them in ways he has to put himself at risk to thwart, but they never actually attack anyone but Superman and soldiers. Alternately, BVS's theme where Superman can't save everyone could come into play here; like I said before, this could all be framed as a tragedy, lingering on the (PG-13!) harm their fight in the middle of Smallville has caused to the people who live there afterwards. The shift from getting people out of the way to hitting bad people happens without comment or explanation, and again I feel like it would be more interesting and effective to have more insight into why Clark does what he does. Unfortunately, I don't think Snyder's very good at that, and I'm not sure he even intended these two things to be different. Schwarzwald posted:Superheroes often fulfill the role of cops in stories, but superheroes are not inherently cops. This brings us full circle. I agree with this, and MOS gives us a look at what Snyder thinks, too. In MOS, Clark is not a cop until he puts on the suit and becomes Superman. After that, all of his problems can (only!) be solved with righteous force against wrongdoers and their weapons. I wonder if Snyder intended that, but I don't think he did. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 05:38
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Cease to Hope posted:This brings us full circle. I agree with this, and MOS gives us a look at what Snyder thinks, too. The Kryptonians aren't "wrongdoers," they're genocidal imperialists. Fighting nazis doesn't make you a cop. If you really want to psychoanalyze Snyder this badly, consider the sequel film. Bruce Wayne puts on a suit and becomes a cop. After that, he perceives that all his problems can (only!) be solved with righteous force against who he feels is a wrongdoer. It turns out he was wrong to think that. Does that "give us a look at what Snyder thinks," too? Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 05:46
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Schwarzwald posted:The Kryptonians aren't "wrongdoers," they're genocidal imperialists. Fighting nazis doesn't make you a cop. It does make you the fantasy of an idealized enforcement agent, one who adheres to a truly just code of ethics rather than flawed codes of law and the inevitable complicity of actual police. I was calling that a supercop, because it's not only superpowered but supermoral. And I say this despite the fact that I think people should sock Richard Spencer right in his ugly jaw at every opportunity. I don't think Superman is wrong to punch these space Nazis, but that it's striking that Snyder made a movie about Superman putting on the suit and thereafter finding that all of his problems are ones he can punch (or threaten). I think Snyder indulges in the same fantasies he's decrying, at least in Man of Steel. If BVS is a refutation of those fantasies, neat, but you'll have to tell me how because I'm not interested in watching that movie again.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:01
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There already is a term for a person with a superhuman dedication to some sort of ethical ideal. The term is ‘superhero’. (Or, depending on context, ‘supervillain’) Cease’s criticism is literally that Superman is a superhero. (‘Supercop’ is the term for a person with superhuman dedication to law enforcement, which is a different thing entirely.)
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Mar 27, 2019 06:06
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Cease to Hope posted:It does make you the fantasy of an idealized enforcement agent, one who adheres to a truly just code of ethics rather than flawed codes of law and the inevitable complicity of actual police. I was calling that a supercop, because it's not only superpowered but supermoral. Superman doesn't enforce anything in the film. He does have a code of ethics. Having a code of ethics doesn't make you a cop.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:07
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Cease to Hope posted:Part of the problem is that the Kryptonians aren't particularly menacing either. Faora talks a big game about how Superman is weak for protecting these people, but she's not directly threatening any of them except the soldiers attacking her. (And it's a PG-13 movie, so no trail of carnage, either.) I'm reminded of Avengers, where the alien invaders mostly destroy windows and parked cars. The Kryptonians are hyper menacing in full black battle armour and skull helmets.In that particular scene they are more busy killing soldiers and trying to gently caress up superman to be doing some retail genocide.Faora in particular goes in a memorable rampage throwing gas tanks at hyper speed to soldiers.It follows they are not really worried about murdering civilians when they have a world engine at the ready in the ship, and that thing is more than efficient killing people with its gravitational hammer like actio.The only thing they care about is the codex, the plans to genocide earth are already set by that moment in the movie. This is weird because one of the usual criticisms is the scale of the destruction in the movie, specially during it's final 35 mins or so. In the Smallville battle dozens of soldier get punched at super speed, and some dude gets his head squashed so hard it explodes in a shower of gore, followed by the Kryptonians squashing thousands of civilians with no effort with the world engine. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 06:13
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Schwarzwald posted:Superman doesn't enforce anything in the film. He does have a code of ethics. Having a code of ethics doesn't make you a cop. He's defending Earth from genocidal invaders. They're bad people out to do something terribly unjust, and he's using force to stop them. You made the good point that a superhero can use their powers for something other than beating up bad people. Schwarzwald posted:Early Superman used his powers to do things like build affordable public housing and fight the (real life) KKK, for example. You made this good argument that I like a lot, and it's what made me notice that MOS Clark spends all his time rescuing people until he puts on his suit, after which he starts punching people. I never thought about that before.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:19
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The main problem with the Kryptonians is that they have names and lines of dialogue, if they didn't, no one would even notice how destructive the fights are. If they were a horde of barely sentient 'invaders' there would be zero controversy.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:19
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The main problem with the Kryptonians is that they have names and lines of dialogue, if they didn't, no one would even notice how destructive the fights are. If they were a horde of barely sentient 'invaders' there would be zero controversy. The Avengers literally killed all of the Ultronians in Age of Ultron and no one gives a poo poo.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:25
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Cease to Hope posted:He's defending Earth from genocidal invaders. They're bad people out to do something terribly unjust, and he's using force to stop them. Yes. That isn't enforcement. That is not what the word means. Cease to Hope posted:You made this good argument that I like a lot, and it's what made me notice that MOS Clark spends all his time rescuing people until he puts on his suit, after which he starts punching people. I never thought about that before. He literally rescues the entire human population of Earth. You've invented a distinction where rescuing people doesn't count if it involves violent action.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:28
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Catching up on this thread, I just thought of this month-old post from GenChat:SuperMechagodzilla posted:How about an Oz story where it’s explicitly not drugs (or head injury, etc.)? Now, by this logic it is impossible for someone to have sent the Snyder panel footage back in time one month for SMG to steal ideas from so what's going on here
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Mar 27, 2019 12:48
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Nodosaur posted:
I was gonna post this yesterday, but then my life exploded, so this is a bit too late, but here it is anyways, an incomplete history of batman directly or indirectly killing people in comics, post crisis (as far as I can tell) https://imgur.com/a/UvehcXv Enjoy! My personal favorites are the ones he kicks someone into a woodchipper and when he incites two gangs to fight each other using a firecracker. Oh, and firing a loving rocket at a dude on a snowmobile.
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Mar 27, 2019 13:55
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I think the big divide is that I, personally, find a Superman that can "save everyone" an inane story so I don't see the criticism about writing one that can't and is shown to have to make human split moment decisions that sometimes end up badly. Even everyone's favorite All Star Superman does not portray Superman as that.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:03
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The woodchipper one is wild.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:04
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C'mon Batman, "Reports of my death have been somewhat exaggerated... unlike yours!" doesn't even work. Why would they be reporting both deaths. Makes no sense.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:15
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