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Karpaw posted:Has GRRM ever been called out on his depiction of POC? Because between promiscous Summer Islanders who venerate prostitutes at "temples of love" and Naathi who frolic naked with butterflies all day and are so pacifistic they refuse to fight even in self-defense, it's some serious noble savage poo poo. Targs were originally going to be black before GRRM caught himself and said maybe making the incestuous slaving imperialists black is a bad look. Sarella gets poo poo from the Tyrell son at the citadel for her mother being a Summer Islander from the rear end in a top hat Tyrell son at the citadel but for the most part it's GRRM has admitted he's been pretty bad on PoC and LGBT stuff and has said he'll do better in the next books (that he's never going to write) Turin Turambar posted:I always thought Arya mission was to give the mercy of death to Stoneheart. Killing her zombie mother to reestablish the natural order of death and giving her eternal death instead of being a mockery of what she was while being alive is just too perfect for Arya's character arc. This and wiping out a chunk of the Frey's is so obviously Stoneheart's purpose I don't see how you miss it. Like Arya has a chapter called Mercy and she gets to look at a psychical form of revenge and go gently caress that. Gendry's there, Nymeria's there,the Isle of Faces (Arya is the only one who has ever been close to it in fact) is right there come on it's so obviously Arya.
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May 8, 2019 03:49
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Donald the Builder.
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May 8, 2019 04:50
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It’s a fall of rome thing. All the old old old poo poo is way beyond the contemporary ability to construct stuff. The show does a really awful job of showing it except for the wall and even then.
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May 8, 2019 05:30
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TK-42-1 posted:It’s a fall of rome thing. All the old old old poo poo is way beyond the contemporary ability to construct stuff. The show does a really awful job of showing it except for the wall and even then. Neither the books nor the show mention anything like this. The only evidence for this theory is Valyria, and there's no hint Valyria helped build the wall or anything, and the fact the wall exists. It's Kessel run in 12 parsecs stuff.
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May 8, 2019 05:37
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pseudanonymous posted:Or you're just a thoughtless manbaby saying "its the greatest wall ever" "the biggest ever" In the show maybe the books has poo poo like Asshai and people know that magic exists only the maesters really deny it and they have political reasons to do so.
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May 8, 2019 05:55
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Karpaw posted:Has GRRM ever been called out on his depiction of POC? Because between promiscous Summer Islanders who venerate prostitutes at "temples of love" and Naathi who frolic naked with butterflies all day and are so pacifistic they refuse to fight even in self-defense, it's some serious noble savage poo poo. I'm not sure how woke you expect this guy to be. He's a 70 year old white boomer from new jersey. On top of that he's an insular writing con-loving nerd. He started writing it in 1991. Sort of reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9RGU356Mi0
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May 8, 2019 07:19
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pseudanonymous posted:Neither the books nor the show mention anything like this. The only evidence for this theory is Valyria, and there's no hint Valyria helped build the wall or anything, and the fact the wall exists. You haven't read the books that closely, apparently. Storm's End is the most blatant one where Catelyn specifically notes that it's way beyond anything current builders could do or even understand in a passage that really heavily suggests that it's made of concrete, but there's also Harrenhal, the Aerie, the Citadel and Starry Sept in Old Town, Mereen (like the carvings on the walls and the wizard's tower that Dany has her LSD trip in), some of the pyramids in Old Ghis, Chroyane, etc etc. Asshai is also really blatant, being bigger than like the five biggest cities of Essos and Westeros put together and also clearly the site of a nuclear strike. All of those are from the first three books, too, they aren't asspulls from when he lost the plot, although he did also add in even more crap in the useless worldbooks. HELLO LADIES fucked around with this message at 07:45 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 07:35
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What does (book) Roose Bolton even want? As far as I can tell the only things he cares about are staying alive and enjoying his leeches. He just seems to roll with whatever will help accomplish that. He clearly doesn't like Ramsey and think's he a dumbass (which he is) but also seems pretty blase about the fact that Ramsey murdered his legit son and will most certainly murder any child he has with Fat Walda. He ends up Warden of the North because he helped gently caress over Robb, because he saw that Robb was stupid and going to lose, so he betrays him. Then Tywin makes Roose Warden, and he's just like, "OK". All the other important characters have fairly clear motivations and goals, but Roose doesnt seem to give a poo poo about anything. No concern about the "legacy" of his house or any of that poo poo. So what's his deal?
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May 8, 2019 07:39
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Zippy the Bummer posted:What does (book) Roose Bolton even want? As far as I can tell the only things he cares about are staying alive and enjoying his leeches. He just seems to roll with whatever will help accomplish that. He clearly doesn't like Ramsey and think's he a dumbass (which he is) but also seems pretty blase about the fact that Ramsey murdered his legit son and will most certainly murder any child he has with Fat Walda. He wants to advance in the feudal ladder, he wants house Bolton to survive and come out on top and thinks that despite all of his obvious shortcomings ramsay is the best horse to bet on as far as his prospective heirs are concerned.
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May 8, 2019 07:53
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Zippy the Bummer posted:What does (book) Roose Bolton even want? As far as I can tell the only things he cares about are staying alive and enjoying his leeches. He just seems to roll with whatever will help accomplish that. He clearly doesn't like Ramsey and think's he a dumbass (which he is) but also seems pretty blase about the fact that Ramsey murdered his legit son and will most certainly murder any child he has with Fat Walda. I think what he wants is exactly what he's got. He's overlord of the North, most of his potential rivals have been dispatched either by his own machinations or the Ironborn, and winter is here, meaning he can look forward to a lengthy grace period where Northerners will be too busy with survival to challenge his rule. It'd be a cozy arrangement were it not for the unforeseen and unforeseeable variable of Stannis. For feudal aristocrats, acquiring land and titles is usually motivation enough in and of itself. I'd say he does have a concern about his House's legacy, though. It's just that he conceives of this a bit differently than Tywin does. Tywin wants his family to be glorious and dominant, superseding all others. Roose, if he had to choose, would rather have security and stability than prominence. There's a thing he says several times that basically sums him up: "A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule." Stability is the thing, for him. Not in a good way, I think - let's not have any "at least roose made the trains run on time" talk here More like...that stability is what conveys power and control, for him. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 09:05 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 08:57
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HELLO LADIES posted:You haven't read the books that closely, apparently. Storm's End is the most blatant one where Catelyn specifically notes that it's way beyond anything current builders could do or even understand in a passage that really heavily suggests that it's made of concrete, but there's also Harrenhal, the Aerie, the Citadel and Starry Sept in Old Town, Mereen (like the carvings on the walls and the wizard's tower that Dany has her LSD trip in), some of the pyramids in Old Ghis, Chroyane, etc etc. Asshai is also really blatant, being bigger than like the five biggest cities of Essos and Westeros put together and also clearly the site of a nuclear strike. All of those are from the first three books, too, they aren't asspulls from when he lost the plot, although he did also add in even more crap in the useless worldbooks. There was a guy on youtube who made very, very elaborate videos on this subject, but for the life of me I can't remember his name. His thesis was that the entire ice+fire world was actually a future world that regressed into a permanent medieval state. To me it sounded more like GRRM incorporated a lot of elements from his science fiction books into his fantasy setting. EDIT: it was this channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=channel?UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA I picked up on the concrete in Storm's end as well, can't comment much on the others. Specifically Harrenhal is not that old I think? So it wouldn't really be built during a technological age that has passed into myth. What makes you say that asshai is the site of a nuclear strike? It's been a while since I opened the books.
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May 8, 2019 13:36
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Roose wants peace and security so nobody finds out that he's a thousand-year-old skin-changing vampire.
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May 8, 2019 14:01
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kcroy posted:I'm not sure how woke you expect this guy to be. He's a 70 year old white boomer from new jersey. On top of that he's an insular writing con-loving nerd. He started writing it in 1991. Sort of reminds me of this: You realize he's been writing since the 70s right? That doesn't invalidate anything else you've said, but he's been around the block a few times. Just never really been noticed for it before. chaosapiant fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 15:03
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On loop all day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuN8rZsJmUc
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May 8, 2019 16:07
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Does anyone out there have any recommendations on some other good fantasy to read? I've read this series, of course, most of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms/Drizzt novels (I'm done with those, not interested in continuing), the first two books of Wheel of Time which I didn't care for too much, The Witcher novels which are as good to me as ASOIAF, and most of The Lord of The Rings. I still need to finish LOTR. I've heard good things about the Malazan trilogy. Any other series that treat their characters with the same general respect that ASOIAF/Witcher novels do?
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May 8, 2019 16:11
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There's always Discworld if you don't mind a humorous approach to fantasy.
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May 8, 2019 16:17
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chaosapiant posted:Does anyone out there have any recommendations on some other good fantasy to read? I've read this series, of course, most of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms/Drizzt novels (I'm done with those, not interested in continuing), the first two books of Wheel of Time which I didn't care for too much, The Witcher novels which are as good to me as ASOIAF, and most of The Lord of The Rings. I still need to finish LOTR. I've heard good things about the Malazan trilogy. Any other series that treat their characters with the same general respect that ASOIAF/Witcher novels do? I haaaaaaate Malazan. It's about the most audience-hostile work of writing I've ever read, and if you manage to dig your way through that, underneath it's actually a pretty poo poo story. It was derived from an RPG campaign, as one of the many warning signs.
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May 8, 2019 16:20
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bloom posted:There's always Discworld if you don't mind a humorous approach to fantasy. I've heard nothing but good things about Discworld, but the humorous approach, for now at least, doesn't interest me too much. There's something to the feel of The Witcher and ASOIAF that I'm attracted to and looking for more of. Hard to pin point. I hate to say the "grittiness" because gritty for the sake of gritty doesn't interest me. Also noted on the Malazan books, I'll avoid for now. Would historical fiction be my go-to from here? I've heard The Hussite Trilogy is great, but it's not in English.
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May 8, 2019 16:25
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chaosapiant posted:Also noted on the Malazan books, I'll avoid for now. Would historical fiction be my go-to from here? I've heard The Hussite Trilogy is great, but it's not in English. I remember reading and liking Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth books as a teen. I read the first one(s) when they were around which mostly centered around the buidling of a cathedral in a 12th century English town and the people in the town (also deals with the Anarchy and the whole Thomas Beckett business IIRC). I don't know how it holds up, though a friend of mine (who's taste in media I usually trust) has recently read it (and the newer ones) and recommended me to go back to them as he thought they were pretty good. I do remember those being loving grim though, even compared to GOT/ASOIAF.
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May 8, 2019 16:46
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I bought the Maurice Druon books a zillion years ago based on thread recommendation. Still haven't read them.
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May 8, 2019 16:46
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chaosapiant posted:Does anyone out there have any recommendations on some other good fantasy to read? I've read this series, of course, most of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms/Drizzt novels (I'm done with those, not interested in continuing), the first two books of Wheel of Time which I didn't care for too much, The Witcher novels which are as good to me as ASOIAF, and most of The Lord of The Rings. I still need to finish LOTR. I've heard good things about the Malazan trilogy. Any other series that treat their characters with the same general respect that ASOIAF/Witcher novels do? I started reading the Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson and it seems pretty solid so far. The series is supposed to be decently well regarded I think?
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May 8, 2019 16:55
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Bernard Cornwell has written some pretty gritty historical fiction, and overall his writing is decent I think. He wrote a take on the King Arthur mythos and a series about the Saxons in early medieval(?) Britain.
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May 8, 2019 17:00
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Kylaer posted:Bernard Cornwell has written some pretty gritty historical fiction, and overall his writing is decent I think. He wrote a take on the King Arthur mythos and a series about the Saxons in early medieval(?) Britain. Question mark is well placed. Exactly when "late antiquity" crosses over into "early medieval" is very much open to interpretation and personal preference, especially how you even define the difference between the two and when the difference manifests. The question itself is fascinating and probably can't be answered absolutely, but investigating it is keen to gaining more than a surface-level understanding of either period.
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May 8, 2019 17:06
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:I bought the Maurice Druon books a zillion years ago based on thread recommendation. They're great. John XXII is now my favorite pope.
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May 8, 2019 17:15
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Arbite posted:They're great. John XXII is now my favorite pope. Avignon Papacy in general is fascinating. Particularly as it wasn't nearly as much a case of "captive Papacy" as later historians have often imagined it to be. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 17:22
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Arbite posted:They're great. John XXII is now my favorite pope. Pope Thrower is mine.
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May 8, 2019 17:26
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Joe Abercrombie is my suggestion, hes clearly inspired by GRRM but, in my opinion, has better fight scenes and the characters have a bit more emotional depth. Similar kind of low-magic world and subversion/examination of tropes. The author’s twitter handle is Lord Grindark and he has a sense of humor about the genre that I like also.
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May 8, 2019 17:38
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chaosapiant posted:I've heard nothing but good things about Discworld, but the humorous approach, for now at least, doesn't interest me too much. There's something to the feel of The Witcher and ASOIAF that I'm attracted to and looking for more of. Hard to pin point. I hate to say the "grittiness" because gritty for the sake of gritty doesn't interest me. In the fantasy genre, I suggest you check out the Black Company series. It's much more high fantasy than ASOIAF/Witcher, but they share a similar mood which I would sum up as 'this world is full of poo poo'. Disclaimer - it's also more character-oriented than the others, I think a big reason I "only" read the first three books and never bothered to keep reading was that the world didn't feel real and vibrant in my mind the way Planetos does. In the historical fiction, I would recommend Q by Luther Blissett / Wu Ming. It's a genuinely great novel, set during one of the most chaotic and high-adrenaline parts of European history, which makes it a good transition from fantasy reading. Also the authors are shamelessly unreconstructed pinkos, which I'm sure goons will appreciate.
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May 8, 2019 17:45
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NihilCredo posted:In the fantasy genre, I suggest you check out the Black Company series. It's much more high fantasy than ASOIAF/Witcher, but they share a similar mood which I would sum up as 'this world is full of poo poo'. Disclaimer - it's also more character-oriented than the others, I think a big reason I "only" read the first three books and never bothered to keep reading was that the world didn't feel real and vibrant in my mind the way Planetos does. Where does this world "Planetos" come from? I've been seeing it lately but don't recall the ASOIAF books ever referring to the world with that name. Is it just an extrapolation of Essos/Westeros? Also, thanks for the rec, I'll Google up Black Company. I don't mind a more character driven world, that's basically what The Witcher novels are.
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May 8, 2019 17:49
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One lesser-known author I'll throw out a recommendation for (with a caveat) is Christian Cameron. He writes mostly historical fiction and he's an absolute writing machine, he publishes tons of books - he's completed a series set during the Persian Wars and he's deep into another series set during one of the later Crusades. As far as quality, he's kind of mediocre, but with flashes of brilliance. He also is clearly an actual history buff and does a good job of portraying all the different cultural groups without showing much in the way of detectable bias towards one or another; there's a good segment in one of his recent Crusade books where the narrator talks about how back in Europe, it's easy to think of the eastern Mediterranean as being a place where the lines are cleanly drawn between Christians and Muslims, but in reality there's a lot more going on - Turks fighting Mamluks, Venetians fighting Genoans, groups allying across religious lines to accomplish their own material purposes, etc. On the downside, he has this persistent habit of including at least one character in his books who is absolutely, irredeemably evil, and revels in being this kind of evil. It stands out given that most of his characters are portrayed more realistically and definitely detracts from the story. Also his books tend to be sprawling, meandering affairs without much overall direction, which I suppose is realistic but it means I can't remember what actually happens in any given book, since it's basically "Some dude wanders around the Mediterranean/Near East and has random encounters." He's also a historical martial arts nerd and all his fight scenes seem to be pretty well-written as a result of that. His book God of War is definitely the best of his works, it's a stand-alone story focusing on Alexander the Great, and it's absolutely worth reading. It also manages to dodge the "Here is designated evil character" issue.
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May 8, 2019 17:51
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chaosapiant posted:Where does this world "Planetos" come from? I've been seeing it lately but don't recall the ASOIAF books ever referring to the world with that name. Is it just an extrapolation of Essos/Westeros? Not just Westeros and Essos. There's a southern continent with the stunningly appropriate name of Sothoryos  It's almost as bad as a dragon named Drogon.
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May 8, 2019 17:54
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Kylaer posted:Not just Westeros and Essos. There's a southern continent with the stunningly appropriate name of Sothoryos Wasn't even aware of Sothoryos. Is that mentioned in the WoIaF book? I've got that big beautiful hard back beautiful beauty book, but have yet to crack it open and absorb the knowledge within. (I haven't read it yet)
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May 8, 2019 17:57
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chaosapiant posted:Wasn't even aware of Sothoryos. Is that mentioned in the WoIaF book? I've got that big beautiful hard back beautiful beauty book, but have yet to crack it open and absorb the knowledge within. (I haven't read it yet) Yeah. Sothoryos is the series’ version of Africa. The map of Slaver’s Bay in Storm of Swords shows the northern tip of it peeking up from the bottom of the map. The Lands of Ice and Fire map set also reveal a 4th continent far to the east by Asshai called Ulthos, which also dips off the map of the “Known World.” Basically Sothoryos is your typical incredibly racist medieval white people’s take on Africa: the “dark continent” full of jungles and swamps and deserts and explorers and traders from Westeros only visit the ports along the coast for “safety” reasons because venturing inland is a death sentence. I can’t remember who it was, but one minor background character from the series went on an expedition into Sothoryos and came back with yellow fever or some other horrible disease, and his was the typical case.
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May 8, 2019 18:14
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I also have the Lands of Ice and Fire thing, but have never opened it and peaked at the maps. I buy this poo poo because I'm a huge fan of the books and I like seeing these things on my shelf, but never actually sit down to study them. Maybe I should!
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May 8, 2019 18:17
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chaosapiant posted:Does anyone out there have any recommendations on some other good fantasy to read? I've read this series, of course, most of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms/Drizzt novels (I'm done with those, not interested in continuing), the first two books of Wheel of Time which I didn't care for too much, The Witcher novels which are as good to me as ASOIAF, and most of The Lord of The Rings. I still need to finish LOTR. I've heard good things about the Malazan trilogy. Any other series that treat their characters with the same general respect that ASOIAF/Witcher novels do? Never mind kylaer, Malazan is great and erikson managed to finish a 10 book series with 10x the POVs of asoiaf in shorter time than grrm wrote 2 books. Black company/Glen Cook is one of eriksons strongest influences and he does the same thing but better than Cook. Otherwise, if you don’t find grrm gritty enough you always have Bakker for your black demon seed, rape and cannibalism. Abercrombie doesn’t have that deep characters and is basically what you get if you write an action comic in book form. Finally, if Malazan is disqualified because some bad argument about rpg campaign, there is no way to recommend Sanderson.
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May 8, 2019 18:17
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I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll take another look at Malazan along with the other suggestions.
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May 8, 2019 18:25
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The main thing that keeps me coming back to ASOIAF over other series is how big and old the world feels. A lot of fantasy stories remind me of a video game, where the only thing being rendered is what's directly in front of you. GRRM is really good at feeding you tidbits about a mysterious, interesting world but also not clobbering you with incomprehensible infodumps. It's a tough balance to maintain and I haven't found anybody who does it so well.
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May 8, 2019 18:26
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It feels old because it came out 26 years ago lol
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May 8, 2019 18:29
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Is it weird for anyone else that, just a little over 10 years ago this series of books were, while popular among fantasy fans, mostly unheard of, and now everything Game of Thrones related is a part of the zeitgeist. I remember thinking "these books would make a good tv show/movie" and then later "oh neat HBO is working on a pilot," and now we're two episodes away from the ending of an 8 season/9 year running series. I actually first read the series in 2009, because I was anticipating the then new Dragon Age: Origins game and kept reading that the game was influenced by Martin's books. So I read them, and afterward they pretty much ruined most other fantasy for me.
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May 8, 2019 18:32
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Cardiac posted:Never mind kylaer, Malazan is great Remember that Tlann Imass dude who some slave boy found buried underground with broken legs? And how the boy brought him fossilized lion legs to replace his legs so he could walk again? And how he had a sword made out of iron instead of stone like every other Imass? And how he then set off for an epic confrontation against some Jaghut dude? And then the confrontation never happens and he's never mentioned again? That kind of poo poo is why I say Malazan is saturated with contempt for its audience, sometimes spilling over into outright hatred.
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May 8, 2019 18:37
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