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multijoe posted:Dio only figures out he can do it after Jonathan has already beaten him and he's falling off the castle, entirely as a contrivance to allow him to gank Jonathan despite being decapitated. Made in Heaven comes about as a result of Pucci achieving communion with his god (DIO) and grants him what he believes is mastery over the main overarching concept of the series (Fate). I mean it's fine if you don't like it, but there was a logcal conclusion to the story being told in Stone Ocean and the original JoJo contiunity as a whole. acting like it's a good narrative decision that the villain is literally untouchable because of space ripper stingy eyes doesn't make it good, sorry
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Jun 15, 2019 18:40
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The idea that King Crimson is invincible confuses me. There are a lot of things that could kill Diavolo that King Crimson can't stop, including but not limited to exploding the building he is in, poisoning him, or killing him while he is sleeping.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:41
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Rand Brittain posted:The idea that King Crimson is invincible confuses me. There are a lot of things that could kill Diavolo that King Crimson can't stop, including but not limited to exploding the building he is in, poisoning him, or killing him while he is sleeping. he's nearly invincible because of epitaph
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Jun 15, 2019 18:44
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the only way to justify part 6's bs ending is by pulling things out of your rear end that were in no way implied in the story. all that it tells us is that a) the universe "reset" to a point before the beginning of part 6 and b) the main cast except emporio were replaced by lovely off-brand versions of themselves. and given that it's araki we're talking about here, if you're thinking any deeper about it you're almost certainly wrong. DIO's curse? what curse? even as a figurative curse, it doesn't make sense. are the characters happy now? it seems like all that happened was they didn't go to prison and not-jolyne got set up with an even shittier boyfriend.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:44
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Rand Brittain posted:The idea that King Crimson is invincible confuses me. There are a lot of things that could kill Diavolo that King Crimson can't stop, including but not limited to exploding the building he is in, poisoning him, or killing him while he is sleeping. Not in the terms of a JoJo's manga battle because it's presented as a "perfect" defense. Being able to see what will happen ahead of time and just erase it in a fight is far above anyone else to this point (even Kar's "unkillable" can be negated by Stands that can effectively trap him or erase him). There are a few technical Stands that can beat KC, but nothing that any of the main protagonists have. Epitaph by itself saved Diavolo's other half against a super powerful Stand; you stack "erasing the poo poo in between" and there's not poo poo most protagonists can do. Now if he had to fight, like, Freddy Krueger baby, then he'd probably lose if he was ambushed. But he's not on the team. Darko fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 18:46
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my name's hazel and i'm mad as hell and here to tell you: it's okay to hate part 6's ending
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Jun 15, 2019 18:48
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Aurora posted:acting like it's a good narrative decision that the villain is literally untouchable because of space ripper stingy eyes doesn't make it good, sorry I don't feel like you're discussing this in good faith, you're the one who said Jonathan's death was less bullshit that Jolyne's. I don't particularly mind that was a way to get the ending Araki wanted but it's definitely one of the biggest asspulls of the series. Regardless, the point of the ending is Pucci isn't untouchable and he didn't control Fate anywhere near as much as he thought, as his brother had always had the hard counter to his seemingly invincible power ever since they became Stand users and he had always been fated to die to Weather Report through his own actions.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:51
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I don't hate Part 6's ending but I don't particularly like it either. It's an ending. I'm of the opinion these are definitely 100% new people, however, and not the old character being allowed to "Live their best life" or whatever that means. Jolyne and friends are dead. These are just people who look like them.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:52
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Tetracube posted:DIO's curse? what curse? even as a figurative curse, it doesn't make sense. are the characters happy now? it seems like all that happened was they didn't go to prison and not-jolyne got set up with an even shittier boyfriend.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:54
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Bad Seafood posted:I don't hate Part 6's ending but I don't particularly like it either. It's an ending. I'm in this boat as well for reasons already given. I'm not interested in them having some ideal life since they fought and died to hang onto the ones they had, and ultimately for Emperio to keep on living. From the perspective of Araki clearly wanting to end that entire storyline I am more fine with it going out as absurdly hugely as possible.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:56
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multijoe posted:I don't feel like you're discussing this in good faith, 
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Jun 15, 2019 18:58
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Let's look on the bright side. Hermes got to avenge her sister and F.F. got to complete her arc. Anasui is dead.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:00
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Darko posted:Not in the terms of a JoJo's manga battle because it's presented as a "perfect" defense. Being able to see what will happen ahead of time and just erase it in a fight is far above anyone else to this point (even Kar's "unkillable" can be negated by Stands that can effectively trap him or erase him). There are a few technical Stands that can beat KC, but nothing that any of the main protagonists have. The problem with King Crimson is it does 'cheat' like no other main villain's Stand does. Because it's never firmly established how people experience erased time the cast don't get to react to it in a logcal way had Araki had stuck firm with any single depiction. Instead sometimes its Futurama Time Keeps Skipping-style cuts forward where people continue to take actions but can't recall them, other times physics seem to continue but everyone is vacant for the duration as with Polnareff's blood drops and then other times it just seems to be The World. If the cast could have always been able to tell time has been erased because they're halfway across the room and in a completely different position for example, they could have at least tried to fight around its ability.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:00
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Bad Seafood posted:Let's look on the bright side. The Annasui death is p hollow imo as it comes from Pucci culling the herd and not because Annasui is garbage
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Jun 15, 2019 19:02
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Bright side, Baal, bright side.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:04
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Momomo posted:Also on another note the stuff with the arrow always struck me as a bit odd. Jojo doesn't really do powercreep like traditional manga, so the effects of the arrow feel less like gaining untold power and more like they just rerolled for a different stand, at least in Silver Chariot's case. I don't feel like putting people to sleep and switching bodies is a power that much stronger than others we've seen without using the arrow (especially stuff in part 6. Chariot Requiem comparatively seems on par with stuff like Bohemian Rhapsody). Basing your whole ending on a powerup that barely feels like a powerup just isn't that interesting. Errr, I'm not sure you remember what Chariot Requiem could do. It gives full soul control (and that includes Stands) while being almost completely invincible and works on a worldwide level to evolve everyone's souls and bodies into something else, gradually. It's also consistent with GER because it provides an auto defense (try to attack, your Stand turns against you). So even with that relatively weak starting Stand, it gives a power that works on a worldwide level and will eventually change the entire planet, provides a nuh uh you can't touch me defense, and literally controls everyone's souls and Stands. The only reason it's not particularly useful against Diavolo is that its user is too weak to control it. That also intends that if Diavolo got it - good god since he's already so powerful. Fortunately, Giorno got it, and got a top 3 absolute bullshit powerful Stand for it.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:05
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Parts 5 and 6 just have really unsatisfying conclusions. The chase for the arrow was really unfulfilling as an endboss and it was coupled with an absolute slaughter of pacing. Meanwhile the unceremonious, single page death of every character in part 6 had all the impact of a wet fart and I don’t really agree with the decision to make emporio the one to deal the final blow Butt Ghost fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 19:09
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Bad Seafood posted:Bright side, Baal, bright side. I guess the bright side is I've come to love Part 1-4 pretty unanimously and Part 5 is also kinda in there but I have to ignore the major faults of it Unfortunately I do not offer that kindness for Part 6
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Jun 15, 2019 19:11
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Parts 1-4 and 7 are what I usually think of when I think of Jojo. Part 5 and 6 have their moments, but both are pretty heavily flawed. Part 8 might be the only part I actively dislike, but I'm waiting it out to see how I feel about it when it's over.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:13
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multijoe posted:The problem with King Crimson is it does 'cheat' like no other main villain's Stand does. Because it's never firmly established how people experience erased time the cast don't get to react to it in a logcal way had Araki had stuck firm with any single depiction. Instead sometimes its Futurama Time Keeps Skipping-style cuts forward where people continue to take actions but can't recall them, other times physics seem to continue but everyone is vacant for the duration as with Polnareff's blood drops and then other times it just seems to be The World. Kira also kept changing abilities (what, 4 times?), but at least in that case, it was kind of fun because you basically just had 3 or 4 different separate, set Stand fights.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:14
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It also helps that the fights against Kira are good
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Jun 15, 2019 19:16
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Bad Seafood posted:Parts 1-4 and 7 are what I usually think of when I think of Jojo. I was hating part 8 before milagro man and then as soon as milagro man ended I hated it again and didn't read it for three years so maybe catching up to it this separated from it will give me an appreciation for it Also yeah Part 7 is the only post 4 part I hold with the regard I do the first four parts if not more sometimes
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Jun 15, 2019 19:17
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Darko posted:Errr, I'm not sure you remember what Chariot Requiem could do. Was it supposed to be worldwide? If that's the case then sure but I thought it was just the general area, like Bohemian Rhapsody. Edit: if that's not a good example though then there's always Heavy Weather
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Jun 15, 2019 19:20
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Part 4, the anime, is easily my least favorite adaption of the bunch, but the manga might be my favorite part. It could have gone on forever.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:21
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I like Jolyne a ton but the ending of Part 6 is way too poorly defined for any reading to really work, which sucks. Don't like the ending myself, though I guess it's better than 5's. Part 6 might as well end for me when Jolyne turns herself into a Mobius strip.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:25
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Bad Seafood posted:Parts 1-4 and 7 are what I usually think of when I think of Jojo. For me: Part 1's first half has the most hilarious villain of the series but it's not quite there yet in art or fighting Part 2 has a hilarious protagonist, is wacky, and has fun and ridiculous fights Part 3 is the most shounen, has okay characters, has a few good fights and a good climax but the action generally suffers from him figuring out Stands Part 4 has a great crew of protagonists, a great antagonist, and maybe 90 percent of the fights are good Part 5 has okay protagonists (back to 3's level), a villain that is probably again at Part 3's level (DIO gets a lot of credit for stacking Dio Brando's personality from 1 on him subconsciously, but basically only shows up at the very end, Diavolo suffers from a lot of people not staking Doppio on to him), some of the absolute best Stand fights in the series, with a few clunkers, and a final act that kind of peters out Part 6 has a great protagonist and an okay group of friends, an okay villain, some pretty decent Stand fights, but around 50 percent are too over the top, and a final act that is overlong and ends on a fizzle Part 7 has great protagonists, great battles, a great villain, and a good final fight (I count the Dio part as an epilogue of sorts) Part 8, I don't know what the hell is going on I think Part 5's biggest detriment is coming off of the heels of one of the best parts, highlighting its flaws more (if it came after 3, it would have been natural progression of the same type of stuff, but better), and coming before a much better main protagonist, highlighting that flaw. If you swapped Part 4 and 5 in order, it would come off much better, I think. 6 is just a bit too much in general and I always get fatigue 40 percent through it when I try to re-read it.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:25
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Butt Ghost posted:It also helps that the fights against Kira are good Well, to be fair, there aren't any real Stand fights against Diavolo except Doppio vs. Metallica (which I like more than any of the individual Kira fights). Otherwise, it's just Diavolo killing people or getting killed by GER.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:29
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And it sucks (except Metallica that fight is good)
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Jun 15, 2019 19:30
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Momomo posted:Was it supposed to be worldwide? If that's the case then sure but I thought it was just the general area, like Bohemian Rhapsody. Yeah, the end point to Chariot Requiem is that it will eventually evolve all life on the planet so it needed to be stopped, period. It does a good job of establishing that the Arrow just creates ridiculous Stands that are way above the level of what they were before when you realize that. Also, it doesn't just evolve Stands, it gives you your desire when your Stand is stabbed, so that's why Chariot's whole deal was "protect the arrow at all costs" and Gold Experience was "make me the most bullshit power ever please." edit: Yeah, Heavy Weather was basically just as crazy, but that's at the end of Part 5, it was built up to be stupid crazy, and we hadn't really seen anything like that before or till that point outside of Requiem Stands.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:34
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I don't really have a lot of complaints about the early parts of JoJo. Part 2 doesn't do enough with its significantly more expanded cast and the Pillar Men aren't really amazing villains coming off of Jonathan and Dio's blood feud except Wamuu who has an actual relationship with Joseph beyond sheer shitheaded antagonism. Part 3 has some small spots I don't care for but I genuinely love the entire cast and even the small fights are usually 2 chapter gag fights that i don't mind. I guess my biggest complain is that it's very monster of the week and a lot of the users are forgettable but like... they're meant to be for the most part with notable exceptions so eh. Part 4 is probably the strongest overall except I cannot loving stand Koichi and he brings so much of it down for me when anyone is involved and I don't like how it expands its cast and does nothing with almost any of them, Fungami being the sole exception. I don't really feel any of these enough to care or resent any part and enjoy rereading watch any of them excessively though I definitely think Part 4's anime is the weakest of them and Part 3's suffer from poor pacing in places to fill time in the episodes for fights it shouldn't be doing that for.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:36
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Pucci's idealized heaven is one in which everyone is aware of the exact circumstances of their fate and therefor be at peace. The consequences of Emporio defeating him is an end to that certainty. This is represented firstly by Emporio and representives of the dead being placed outside of prison and secondly by the story coming to an end, such that neither the author or the reader can know what happens next. I ain't about to tell anyone their opinion is wrong or anything, but I felt Part 6 stuck the landing super hard. And while all of Jojo is consistently excellent, Parts 6 and 7 are the only one's I'd consider next to flawless.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:36
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Captain Baal posted:I was hating part 8 before milagro man and then as soon as milagro man ended I hated it again and didn't read it for three years so maybe catching up to it this separated from it will give me an appreciation for it Part 8 is awash with forgettable bad guys and automatic stands, a plot that might go somewhere (eventually), and a lot of sameface syndrome. I think it's telling I started off hating Joshu only for him to grow on me by virtue of having a character. He's real in a way a lot of other characters in Part 8 aren't, and I'd rather read a hundred of his bratty, bumbling misadventures than bother much more with these uninteresting rock people.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:40
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jobin's wife is badass
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Jun 15, 2019 19:40
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the antagonists of part 8 kinda blow rear end but i love all the weirdos in the higashikata family
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Jun 15, 2019 19:41
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Yeah, I do like the family. But the only thing that really stood out to me outside of the family that I enjoyed was Damo.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C55n2_EV5U
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Jun 15, 2019 19:44
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I'm a fair-weather fan of the Higashikatas but I can't help but feel like Araki's probably changed his mind two or three times regarding what their deal is supposed to be.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:46
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the biggest crime is not using kyo more
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Jun 15, 2019 19:50
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Schwarzwald posted:Pucci's idealized heaven is one in which everyone is aware of the exact circumstances of their fate and therefor be at peace. The consequences of Emporio defeating him is an end to that certainty. pucci's idealized heaven is one in which it's not his fault that his sister got murdered, it's fate he dresses it up in noble words sure but that's what it is deep down e: also the landing is slippery as hell because it also retroactively changes everything for no reason Yinlock fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 19:54
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i really feel like araki's stepped in like eighteen of his own bear traps with making part 8 a longform mystery and now he's trying to course correct for a satisfying ending. not sure if he can but i'll be here to see him try part 9 will be interesting
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