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bowmore posted:the show is good the way it is, even with magma diver Magma Diver is an incredible showcase of how to introduce something and then have it pop up and be useful later in the most blatant way that no audience member can possibly miss while also feeling like it exists purely to satisfy someone's inflation fetish. Oh and I'm pretty sure Mari just exists to make overanalyzing nerds mad, to have a big boobed girl with glasses because Eva was didn't have that yet and to have Maaya Sakamoto do a voice. As of her current appearances there is basically nothing of substance to her at all outside of annoying Asuka and going "nya" sometimes. She did some really weird things in movie two that hint that she knows way more than anybody else that isn't Gendo and Fuyutsuki which has gone precisely nowhere.
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Jun 25, 2019 15:48
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Regalingualius posted:Canonically, yeah, episodes 25+26 take place about three fourths of the way through EoE (definitely after the Komm, Susser Todd sequence). Going back a bit, but having just watched The End of Evangelion, I don’t think this is correct. Spoilers in case anyone else is watching for the first time: The actual endings of the original episode 26 and End’s version of episode 26 are completely inconsistent. In the original Shinji learns to embrace connections with others and joins the human collective; in the alternate version he and Asuka reject the collective and find themselves completely alone on the new earth.
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Jun 25, 2019 15:50
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cargohills posted:Going back a bit, but having just watched The End of Evangelion, I don’t think this is correct. Spoilers in case anyone else is watching for the first time: The actual endings of the original episode 26 and End’s version of episode 26 are completely inconsistent. In the original Shinji learns to embrace connections with others and joins the human collective; in the alternate version he and Asuka reject the collective and find themselves completely alone on the new earth. http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/8141/What-isConcurrency/ My impression is similar to yours (separate endings and conclusions). I love the idea that they're exclusive from one another and I think the movie has the braver choice (the bittersweet but "good" ending).
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Jun 25, 2019 16:10
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You know I'm gonna admit I like the Netflix dub/sub. Only because it's made fans angry and want the original dvds. Just sold my nonplatinum DVD set for over $100
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Jun 25, 2019 16:17
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I've always associated the ending of 26 with Shinji shaking Rei's hand in EoE; much of the discourse/revelations/epiphanies experienced by both Shinji and those he is debating affirm his individual self-worth and place. "There exists as many truths as there are people, but only one truth that is your truth". It's just that the series doesn't follow up further with what the movie does, that there would still be pain and rejection that humans (Shinji) would have to contend with.
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Jun 25, 2019 16:17
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I've always thought the TV ending and the end of EoE are actually pretty consistent but im sleepy and haven't started my rewatch yet to extrapolate further
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Jun 25, 2019 16:21
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cargohills posted:Going back a bit, but having just watched The End of Evangelion, I don’t think this is correct. Spoilers in case anyone else is watching for the first time: The actual endings of the original episode 26 and End’s version of episode 26 are completely inconsistent. In the original Shinji learns to embrace connections with others and joins the human collective; in the alternate version he and Asuka reject the collective and find themselves completely alone on the new earth. Shinji doesn't join the human collective in original 26 -- go back and take a closer look at exactly what his revelation consists of. He realizes that the boundaries between people are essential to making them who they are, that a world without any restrictions is also a world that's completely barren. Needing other separate people in order to see and understand yourself is the exact opposite of Instrumentality*, and it's the former that he chooses. * A couple hundred pages ago I had a pretty interesting conversation with someone who argued that EoE retconned what Instrumentality meant, and that Instrumentality in 25-26 and EoE are opposites, with 25-26 presenting a much more positive view of the process. I don't find it very convincing, and prefer to read the series + movie as a whole.
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Jun 25, 2019 16:23
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You might be right about him still rejecting total unity in the original ending, but I read the EOE ending as him rejecting the lessons and regressing back to the closed-off person he's been for most of the series.
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Jun 25, 2019 16:45
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cargohills posted:You might be right about him still rejecting total unity in the original ending, but I read the EOE ending as him rejecting the lessons and regressing back to the closed-off person he's been for most of the series. It's more that they're two completely different lessons. Like, he rejects a cosmic cheat code that would render all of his personal problems moot, because it's wrong and would erase everything he cares about -- which is the right decision, but just because he rejected a morally compromised shortcut doesn't mean he ever made progress on his personal problems in the first place.
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Jun 25, 2019 16:48
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Any of y'all read the manga? Its written by one of the shows creators and I heard the ending is clearer and shockingly optimistic. Someone told me that its End of Evangelion, but with a happy ending. They move the timeline forward to where Shinji and crew are reborn into a normal world without evas or angels after rejecting instrumentality. And that humanity and the crew move forward with no recollection of the original series. Shinji and crew get to live a normal school life. All that jazz. Covok fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 16:51
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The manga is written by Sadamoto, the character designer, and it sucks.
Raxivace fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 16:52
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I still think the show's ending is loving amazing. Shinji just accepting himself is one of the strongest moments in all media for me
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Jun 25, 2019 16:53
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Raxivace posted:The manga is written about Sadamoto, the character designer, and it sucks. Why does it suck? I got 11 volumes but I read it like 6 years ago. Planning on buying the final volumes and preordering Anima.
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Jun 25, 2019 16:56
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Covok posted:Why does it suck? I got 11 volumes but I read it like 6 years ago. Planning on buying the final volumes and preordering Anima. Like manga Shinji straight up tries to start a fist fight with Gendo at one point and its just so far removed by why that character was ever interesting. This is to say nothing of how flatout stupid I think the manga's ending is- the whole thing just kind of feels like its more interesting in being hollow fan wish fulfillment to me. Another way to put it is that the manga is exactly the kind of thing I think the Rebuild movies are making fun of.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:09
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The manga did get an extra chapter around the time one of the Rebuilds came out that shows Mari as a college student with Shinji’s parents and I vaguely remember her having a crush on his mom. I think it implied she stopped aging.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:11
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I did like how the manga expanded on Kaji’s backstory, though it also winds up turning him from one of the only characters who was mentally well-balanced into a self-admitted self-loathing wreck beneath the surface.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:27
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's more that they're two completely different lessons. Like, he rejects a cosmic cheat code that would render all of his personal problems moot, because it's wrong and would erase everything he cares about -- which is the right decision, but just because he rejected a morally compromised shortcut doesn't mean he ever made progress on his personal problems in the first place. I don't think I agree with this. In the original ending, I feel like he very much does make progress on his personal problems - his issue is that he's always believed himself to be worthless, and that everyone else should hate him like he does. Most of episode 26 is about him overcoming this belief and realising that he does deserve to have a place in the world.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:37
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Yeah. To me EoE tracks closely with episode 25 but it doesn't really match the growth and more positive conclusion we see in episode 26.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:43
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I don't think the conclusions are that incongruous though. In Episode 26, Shinji realizes that there are other, brighter possibilities for him if he keeps working at it, that people need each other. In EoE he learns that he can reject Instrumentality and go back to a world where he will never not have misunderstandings with people but that "anywhere can be paradise, as long as you have the will to live"
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Jun 25, 2019 17:52
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 Source
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Jun 25, 2019 17:53
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I just freshly rewatched 26 and I'm not sold that Shinji is accepting anything other than his self worth.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:06
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Even if that was true and that's all he learned (I disagree), that's still an important lesson. He's also told that he can never love anyone else and no-one can be expected to love him if he doesn't love himself. That acceptance and understanding of himself will allow him to look at everyone else the same. The idea that you're only seeing your own version of reality, and that everyone in the world is doing the same, and that you're basically just on a bridge watching yourself go by is a profoundly deep lesson for Shinji to learn Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 18:12
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TV ending and EoE are sequential. The TV ending depicts a hollow false self-actualization borne entirely from introspection, and EoE depicts the depression-induced backslide that usually follows such things, followed by real progress.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:17
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:TV ending and EoE are sequential. The TV ending depicts a hollow false self-actualization borne entirely from introspection, and EoE depicts the depression-induced backslide that usually follows such things, followed by real progress. I like this interpretation, though I wouldn't call Sjinji's realization "hollow" by any means. Episode 26 is a breakthrough in a very productive therapy session, EoE is going back out into the ugly world to do the difficult leg work of putting everything back together. I had never liked EoE, but I had only seen it once as a teenager. I'm about to rewatch it and will keep this in mind. I might find a new appreciation for it. Xander B Coolridge fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 18:33
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That's a really interesting way of looking at it.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:38
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The Eva manga makes the cast more generic but still stays on the general trajectory of the tv show until the very end so it weakens most of the emotions at play. It stinks and I wish it diverged from the tv show more! Shinji being at odds with Kaworu because he's a kitten-killing psycho ain't inherently bad but it is when it retreads Shinji having to kill him, as it's more about Shinji not wanting to kill someone that looks human instead of someone he has reason to care about.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:58
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Yeah honestly if it had diverged more it would at least feel like its own distinct thing and not more akin to a pale imitation.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:59
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What does it mean to be "still not over this show"?
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Jun 25, 2019 19:59
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"It's been it for 20 years already, watch a different show" is how I'm interpreting it. That or "You're too old to discuss this show I've decided I've grown out of liking."
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Jun 25, 2019 20:03
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Not like there weren't some extremely high profile movies that came out recently that might have re-ignited discussion about it, or anything.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:07
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Episode 26 message: You give yourself value. EoE message: You have to accept that people are going to hate you and the world sucks rear end and there's little you can do about it. Both lessons are needed for a complete arc.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:07
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So they mean people who are obsessed with it.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:08
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I mean discussing a thing isn’t exactly being obsessed. I have no doubt there are people who are obsessed but talking about a thing is an incredibly low bar.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:10
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean discussing a thing isn’t exactly being obsessed. I have no doubt there are people who are obsessed but talking about a thing is an incredibly low bar. Yeah, I'm probably not going to ever not enjoy talking about Evangelion.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:11
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah, I'm probably not going to ever not enjoy talking about Evangelion. 
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Jun 25, 2019 20:14
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Ethiser posted:The manga did get an extra chapter around the time one of the Rebuilds came out that shows Mari as a college student with Shinji’s parents and I vaguely remember her having a crush on his mom. I think it implied she stopped aging. Sadamoto clarified that it was just drawn for fun/fanservice and isn't actually canon
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Jun 25, 2019 20:23
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Beefstew posted:Episode 26 message: You give yourself value. Even more to the point, EoE says that the people you love will hurt you, and you in turn will hurt the people you love, but that doesn't mean you should cut yourself off from them. I used to think EoE was pretty nihilistic, but the more I watch it the more hopeful it gets.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:33
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Xander B Coolridge posted:I like this interpretation, though I wouldn't call Sjinji's realization "hollow" by any means.  I've always taken the two endings and combined them in a similar fashion.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:50
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like many others i just finished the show for the first time due to netflix having it so easily made me just watch rather than looking to pirate it. absolutely fascinating work, and i watched. the tonal shift midway through is so abrupt and brutally interesting, the last two episodes were incredibly murky but i've read a bit now that puts it into context. last night when i was watching i didn't quite understand what was happening, and idk if that's just down to me not being observant enough but it did take a bit of brain power to click that this was post instrumentality. one thing i cannot piece together though is the difference between gendo's plan and what seele wanted. can someone help me out a bit here?
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Jun 25, 2019 20:54
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tbp posted:like many others i just finished the show for the first time due to netflix having it so easily made me just watch rather than looking to pirate it. Did you watch End of Evangelion?
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Jun 25, 2019 20:58
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