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i've been having a lot of trouble contextualizing the choking scenes from eoe in my head. i can't quite figure out what they're supposed to mean.
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Jul 1, 2019 18:12
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i think its that asuka is such a difficult read for shinji and brings up his insecurities and during the kitchen scene taking place in their minds, she calls him out for being a desperate fucker who doesn't love her specifically, but would love anyone who would show him the slightest sympathy. hes at the complete bottom of mental stability at that point and having to hear that gets him to a breaking point. i think it represents the apex of trying to run away from your problems, to kill the explanation or the catalyst that shows you how broken you really are. can't handle the truth and all that I don't get why'd he'd do that in the beach after learning from all that and rejecting instrumentality. Some weird metaphor poo poo or something.
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Jul 1, 2019 18:16
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To go off that, there's a Hayao Mizayaki essay where he talks about how young men create and see this image of a girl. This girl is someone who he can defend, who he can take action to help, who will always forgive him and help him, but one that's very distinct from the Mother. A sort of Princess and Her Knight idea. (im sure this isn't a unique idea to Miyazaki, I just read it recently and connected it to Eva) To me, Asuka is that for Shinji. I'm sort of simplifying Asuka's character a lot, I haven't gotten to her yet on my rewatch, but in the first choking scene in EoE, that image of Asuka rejects Shinji and that breaks him. This person of the opposite sex who is supposed to happily help him and be grateful for his help refuses to do that and Shinji, tired of being alone and beaten and berated has loving had it and picks her up like a doll and begins to choke her. But this Asuka doesn't give a poo poo. She isn't scared or angry or regretful. She just thinks he's pathetic. And that sort of absolute rejection, that he can't run away from this, that this is part of him, is what "starts" the third impact or at least leads us to that scene
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Jul 1, 2019 18:24
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a bit more clarification on end of eva
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Jul 1, 2019 18:32
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ArfJason posted:I don't get why'd he'd do that in the beach after learning from all that and rejecting instrumentality. Some weird metaphor poo poo or something. The key thing that stopped him was Asuka's hand caressing his face, which immediately calls back the shot a couple minutes prior when the spirit of his mother did the same thing. Asuka being disgusted is the perfect final message. As humans, we'll still have our barriers up and need to trust in Rei/Kaworu when they say that they'll represent hope and the message "I love you." It's the best bittersweet ending I could have hoped for. If Shinji had just reached down and helped Asuka up, it wouldn't have sparked as much discussion since it would have just been "welp, Shinji learned his lesson, guess he's a perfect character from now on." The whole series can be summed up by The Hedgehog's Dilemma which is mentioned in Ep 4. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog%27s_dilemma quote:Both Arthur Schopenhauer and Sigmund Freud have used this situation to describe what they feel is the state of the individual in relation to others in society. The hedgehog's dilemma suggests that despite goodwill, human intimacy cannot occur without substantial mutual harm, and what results is cautious behavior and weak relationships. With the hedgehog's dilemma, one is recommended to use moderation in affairs with others both because of self-interest, as well as out of consideration for others. The hedgehog's dilemma is used to explain introversion and self-imposed isolation. JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 18:41
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yeah the entire show is an exploration of the hedgehogs dilemma, i just didnt really think that shinji, after all that happened and hes gone through, would revert back to such a mindset, but the thing about their absolute terror fields being back up does make some sense
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Jul 1, 2019 18:48
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Expect My Mom posted:they extremely do though I guess I’m inclined to see EoE more negatively because I find Shinji’s behavior in the last scene so repugnant. Choking Asuka is such a violent and upsetting act. Considering what he was doing just before that it’s pretty hard for me to see Shinji’s character as having changed for the better as a result of his time aboard the “juice train” (love that image) in EoE.
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Jul 1, 2019 19:24
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there's three main points i think which are 1) you have to value yourself and claim your rightful place in the world, no matter what 2) you also have to value other people and acknowledge their place in the world, this can be very hard work especially if you haven't completed step 1 3) please try not to wait until the world is an insane hellscape before doing these things (lookin at you irl humans in 2019)
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Jul 1, 2019 19:41
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ArfJason posted:yeah the entire show is an exploration of the hedgehogs dilemma, i just didnt really think that shinji, after all that happened and hes gone through, would revert back to such a mindset, but the thing about their absolute terror fields being back up does make some sense It's that combined with teen angst, which makes it a must-watch for weeby teens. It has everything! Feeling useless in an adult world, finding out you're not "the best", sexual confusion, misunderstanding signals, breakthroughs and relapses. It's kind of a shame it's in anime format because it's really good to help understand growing up
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Jul 1, 2019 20:22
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Jul 1, 2019 20:49
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I always took the choking to be a momentary thing. He jerks off to her non responsive person in the beginning of EoE(not super engaging or connective), and it ends with him choking her, and her caressing him (different forms of connection and engagement). I think that they are in a different mental state at the end, than when EoE opens. At the end, he's angry and engaged and she's almost being warm (in her own way). It's mental progress, not relationship progress. I don't think we're meant to take away that choking people can really get you invested in a person, but what the scene communicates about each of their states denotes some degree of personal progress with connecting.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:20
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Goons: please do not choke people to abstractly demonstrate that rejection and engagement are possible. This is not good behavior 
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Jul 1, 2019 22:43
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The choking thing made sense to me because the entire show is filled with Anno's hangups regarding sex equaling violence.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:18
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3.0 owns so much it's hosed up and rules and I love it
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Jul 1, 2019 23:23
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Cmon guys Shinji lived through a literal apocalypse that he was party responsible for. He's been wandering around on his own for an undetermined amount of time thinking he's the last person alive on earth. Yes, his mama told him that people can emerge from the ocean of tang if they wanted to, but up to that point no one has done so. Seeing Asuka lie there, catatonic and unresponsive, he probably has no idea if this is real Asuka or a figment of his imagination that he conjured up. These are pretty extenuating circumstances, and I always saw the choking scene as Shinji wanted to illicit some, any response from Asuka to affirm that not only is she alive, but himself as well. edit: should we be spoilering this stuff idk
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Jul 1, 2019 23:23
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Giggy posted:The choking thing made sense to me because the entire show is filled with Anno's hangups regarding sex equaling violence.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:24
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Giggy posted:The choking thing made sense to me because the entire show is filled with Anno's hangups regarding sex equaling violence. shinji saw it in a porno, got confused
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Jul 1, 2019 23:27
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Expect My Mom posted:everything is sex except sex which is power Guys look, it's Robert California Light Gun Man posted:shinji saw it in a porno, got confused Sides of the neck, Shinji. You want to restrict blood flow, not crush their trachea.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:29
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Ive honestly spent a lot of time today thinking how to post shinji holding a mug while on topic
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Jul 2, 2019 00:45
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Episode 3: Man EVA-01 "berserking" in the last fight is nothing compared to Shinji actually having a mental breakdown and charging madly into danger in this one I appreciate that the big lesson of this episode is two other school-aged children learning how much it sucks to be in Shinji's position even if it seems cool from the outside
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Jul 2, 2019 00:49
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that always seemed like the most direct response to the "mecha genre" in that it sure sounds cool to gently caress up bad guys and monsters in robots but it's probably loving horrifying and scary
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Jul 2, 2019 00:58
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Peacoffee posted:I always took the choking to be a momentary thing. He jerks off to her non responsive person in the beginning of EoE(not super engaging or connective), and it ends with him choking her, and her caressing him (different forms of connection and engagement). I think that they are in a different mental state at the end, than when EoE opens. At the end, he's angry and engaged and she's almost being warm (in her own way). It's mental progress, not relationship progress. I don't think we're meant to take away that choking people can really get you invested in a person, but what the scene communicates about each of their states denotes some degree of personal progress with connecting. Hot take: Shinji jacks it over Asuka's accidentaly exposed bewbs because he's questioning his sexuality in the wake of his interactions with Kaworu and is trying to assert or reaffirm his heterosexuality.
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Jul 2, 2019 01:01
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I think the point of both the jacking off and the choking is that it's real weird and messed up
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Jul 2, 2019 01:08
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IronicDongz posted:I think the point of both the jacking off and the choking is that it's real weird and messed up p. much Covok posted:Is it? I saw it last week and thought it was just fine. I don't why a sequel would be hard. it's poo poo op gorgeous poo poo but that bejeweled turd is still ultimately a turd Yinlock fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 01:13
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IronicDongz posted:I think the point of both the jacking off and the choking is that it's real weird and messed up the lowest of the low
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Jul 2, 2019 01:19
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It’s really too bad that Anno was such a weirdo because it undercuts a lot of things that are good about the series. Like Shenji Asuka and Misato are all fairly believable characters with understandable flaws and I think viewers can sympathize with each one at least a little. It was clear that the ending could achieve great things by pushing those characters to their breaking point. But then Shenji is jacking it to his unconscious classmate and everyone is melting and Shenji is choking people. Like, look I’m all for psychological complexity and character driven stories but drat dude you went real weird with it. I guess what I’m saying is that I like 25-26 a lot better than EoE.
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Jul 2, 2019 01:55
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I love it weird
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Jul 2, 2019 02:18
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Honestly, if the messages were clearly and less muddled Evangelion would probably not be as beloved/hated as much as it is. It is a gross, weird looking leaf dancing in the wind, and it's better for it.
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Jul 2, 2019 02:25
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Expect My Mom posted:I love it weird 
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Jul 2, 2019 02:31
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So in wake of the Netflix discourse (and also the convenience of Netflix), a couple friends and I have decided to watch the show the whole way through, plus EoE, plus Rebuild. Two of us are rewatching NGE, another is seeing the show for the first time. Should we also do Death/Rebirth before EoE, or should we just skip it? I've seen it all, but Death/Rebirth is the one I have the least memory of and fondness for; is it largely unnecessary, or is there value in watching it after finishing episode 26?
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Jul 2, 2019 02:35
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Appoda posted:So in wake of the Netflix discourse (and also the convenience of Netflix), a couple friends and I have decided to watch the show the whole way through, plus EoE, plus Rebuild. Two of us are rewatching NGE, another is seeing the show for the first time. if you just binged it all, nah
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Jul 2, 2019 02:40
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ArfJason posted:that always seemed like the most direct response to the "mecha genre" in that it sure sounds cool to gently caress up bad guys and monsters in robots but it's probably loving horrifying and scary i mean other mecha shows did that too, like gundam, votoms, or ideon votoms is cool because theres an episode where the protagonist's giant robot nearly gets rocked by like five guys on motorcycles chucking molotovs at him
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Jul 2, 2019 02:45
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Ogmius815 posted:It’s really too bad that Anno was such a weirdo because it undercuts a lot of things that are good about the series. Like Shenji Asuka and Misato are all fairly believable characters with understandable flaws and I think viewers can sympathize with each one at least a little. It was clear that the ending could achieve great things by pushing those characters to their breaking point. But then Shenji is jacking it to his unconscious classmate and everyone is melting and Shenji is choking people. eva should be nothing but the dance episode and everything melting, and everything inbetween those two extremes is a waste of time
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Jul 2, 2019 02:46
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nrook posted:I appreciate that the big lesson of this episode is two other school-aged children learning how much it sucks to be in Shinji's position even if it seems cool from the outside
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Jul 2, 2019 02:49
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hope and vaseline posted:he probably has no idea if this is real Asuka or a figment of his imagination that he conjured up. The question on this point is if the Asuka in the kitchen scene can be said to Asuka or his "dream"; the implication seeming to be that Shinji conjured up a reality where they sleep together (this is seen in a brief shot of her on top of him, naked) as an alternate ending to the kiss scene from episode 15, but his self-loathing won't permit him to accept it. One could argue that it's really Asuka because (some part of) Misato is also there, but we saw Rei snatch her away right before she died. Or, in both cases it's the fragments of these characters that exist in his heart, as the series would have it.
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Jul 2, 2019 02:56
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Ogmius815 posted:It’s really too bad that Anno was such a weirdo because it undercuts a lot of things that are good about the series. Like Shenji Asuka and Misato are all fairly believable characters with understandable flaws and I think viewers can sympathize with each one at least a little. It was clear that the ending could achieve great things by pushing those characters to their breaking point. But then Shenji is jacking it to his unconscious classmate and everyone is melting and Shenji is choking people. If it wasn't this weird, it probably wouldn't be nearly as memorable or impactful. Plus, we got to remember that End of Evangelion was partially made because Anno recieved death threats for "screwing up the original ending in the series." And you know they got to him because the death threats are in the movie! When all those images are flashing buy and you suddenly just see Japanese characters with no translation, those are the actual death threats Anno received. Death of the Author be damned, this is needed to understand the writer's mindset when making this film.
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Jul 2, 2019 02:58
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ArfJason posted:that always seemed like the most direct response to the "mecha genre" in that it sure sounds cool to gently caress up bad guys and monsters in robots but it's probably loving horrifying and scary Even Mazinger and Getter had that kind of stuff going on. Mazinger can be a God or a Devil! The enemy will force you to make terrible decisions! Dr Hell is gonna strap civilians to a robot and make you punch them to death to stop his plans! Getter Rays are mysterious and have their own agenda and we're playing with fire by using them but we're gonna keep doing it anyway! Bad things will happen! We're all assholes and will probably die flying around in these nightmare powered murder planes!
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Jul 2, 2019 03:00
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Covok posted:If it wasn't this weird, it probably wouldn't be nearly as memorable or impactful. Plus, we got to remember that End of Evangelion was partially made because Anno recieved death threats for "screwing up the original ending in the series." And you know they got to him because the death threats are in the movie! When all those images are flashing buy and you suddenly just see Japanese characters with no translation, those are the actual death threats Anno received. Death of the Author be damned, this is needed to understand the writer's mindset when making this film. psst: actually, only one of those is a death threat, most of them are letters of praise in the film
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Jul 2, 2019 03:10
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yeah thats one of those talking points gets blown out of proportion in western fandom. it's def. an angle the film is playing with but the tv series ending had a mixed reception, plenty of people thought it was incredibly good even at the time and it's one of the most iconic things about eva, even more than the EoE ending I'd say. obviosly the fact that anno got death threats is a real thing and that is hosed but it was a tiny minority of a minority not the standard anime nerd reaction to the ending when it aired.
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Jul 2, 2019 03:14
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END ME SCOOB posted:psst: actually, only one of those is a death threat, most of them are letters of praise in the film I didn't know that. That's interesting. I can't read that since, well, I am not from that country. So, when people said that's what they were, I had no way to disagree.
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Jul 2, 2019 03:22
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