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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:Never heard that it was a last minute thing before, so I’m gonna go ahead and say it’s misinformation Nah, here's the afterword where he discusses changing the ending. From his comments it seems the creation of Made in Heaven itself was part of that last minute change, so at the very least C-Moon would likely have played a larger in the original draft. Other than that I guess they'd have killed Pucci and then everyone went home, which Araki seems to think would have been a flat note to end the saga on.
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Jul 8, 2019 11:27
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multijoe posted:Nah, here's the afterword where he discusses changing the ending. From his comments it seems the creation of Made in Heaven itself was part of that last minute change, so at the very least C-Moon would likely have played a larger in the original draft. Other than that I guess they'd have killed Pucci and then everyone went home, which Araki seems to think would have been a flat note to end the saga on. Oh wow, I didn’t know about that. It’s interesting to see his thought process.
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Jul 8, 2019 14:13
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Daxing Dan posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but I think Giorno's relationship with the rest of the crew is too often told and not shown. The most egregious example of this happens in the Spice Girl chapters, when Spice Girl is all like "Wow Giorno is so strange, huh? Meeting him has caused you to grow stronger in spirit and as a human being," despite the two of them never even speaking a word to each other up to that point. And, despite being the guy who came up with the idea to overthrow The Boss in the first place, Giorno's commitment to that goal remains kind of abstract. Buccellati, on the other hand, goes on to oppose the boss on a much more personal and physical level, and he dies twice in the process while Giorno is kind of sidelined. I like Giorno and I like his fights (yes, even Baby Face) because he has a lot of great lines that have a tendency to stick in my brain, but he definitely feels under-developed as a character. I think if his relationship with the gang stars and Diavolo were set up better, it would have also made the payoff where Giorno is the one to inherit the dying wills of Narancia, Abbacchio, and Buccellati and defeat Diavolo much more impactful. i think giorno's committment to overthrowing the boss is pretty well shown by how frequently he just throws himself into danger to give the gang a way out. soft machine, notorious BIG, killing polpo, etc. unlike diavolo, who's a giant coward and a baby, giorno is always jumping into giant risks, and he's doing it cause he wants to tear down the boss
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Jul 8, 2019 16:25
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multijoe posted:Nah, here's the afterword where he discusses changing the ending. From his comments it seems the creation of Made in Heaven itself was part of that last minute change, so at the very least C-Moon would likely have played a larger in the original draft. Other than that I guess they'd have killed Pucci and then everyone went home, which Araki seems to think would have been a flat note to end the saga on. hmm interesting, I guess a more typical ending would have been a wasted opportunity for a story as.. I dunno, hectic? like Stone Ocean
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Jul 8, 2019 17:16
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CJ posted:It might also have something to do with the gang being a close knit group and Giorno being the outsider. In all the other parts i've read the gang forms as part of the story. But mainly i think that there's little down time. I reread Rolling Stone yesterday and the bit where they are sitting round the table talking about eating herbivores is great. Well, so does Sex Pistols and Echoes Act 3, so it's not that uncommon. Condiv posted:i think giorno's committment to overthrowing the boss is pretty well shown by how frequently he just throws himself into danger to give the gang a way out. soft machine, notorious BIG, killing polpo, etc. unlike diavolo, who's a giant coward and a baby, giorno is always jumping into giant risks, and he's doing it cause he wants to tear down the boss Yeah, I like that both him and Bruno had different tipping points when it comes to the Boss too, and they both involve underestimating how far he's willing to go. Bruno's tipping point is the Boss trying to kill Trish because Family Should Never Do That while Giorno does doesn't seem all that surprised. (Why would he be surprised about a parent treating their child like garbage?) Giorno's tipping point starts at Abbacchio's death, then the full shove is the Green Day fight, and then it keeps getting worse very fast after learning that Bruno's already dead and THEN Narancia bites it. I think people forget that Giorno was very cavalier about overthrowing the Boss (which is fair, a lot of stuff happens). He wants to have his cake and eat it too, with doing what's more expedient to getting to the Boss while minimizing casualties and deaths. That's why he's always jumping into risky business because him dying is way more preferable to someone else, even if they're on the same team and understand that death is always a possibility. They're risks but they're always calculated perfectly. His brain never stops ruminating over ideas and plans. At later points he trusts the others to pick up what he's putting down (even Trish!) so he stops trying to do everything by himself. He was the one who suggested to Bruno that he tell them why he's betraying the Boss and that they need allies. It's fine, right? Gold Experience can "heal" them, like it did with Bruno! Right? But it can't. Abbacchio dies and Giorno's completely shocked. The Green Day fight happens and he can't BELIEVE that the Boss is willing to kill all of Rome to get at them. Then he learns that Bruno is actually dead. THEN Narancia dies, while he's in Giorno's body, which he takes the most personally (remember when Narcancia was like "TRISH IS ME! THAT SCAR ON HER ARM IS MINE!" at the boat scene? This is the same thing). He's "inheriting their will" through the arrow because he feels responsible for their deaths. He can at least make their actions up to this point mean something by knocking Diavolo into the Shadow Realm or wherever. I would have loved more down time with the gang too, but it didn't really come that out of nowhere for me. BaDandy fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 17:22
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Honest Thief posted:hmm interesting, I guess a more typical ending would have been a wasted opportunity for a story as.. I dunno, hectic? like Stone Ocean Pucci is following a bizarre prophecy, the stand effects are large range and sound like a someone on drugs trying to remember Revelations (fairy tales came to life and took peoples souls to their world, then the dead returned and the weather turned people to snails and gravity turned sideways...) Anything other than The End would've been disappointing.
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Jul 8, 2019 17:33
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multijoe posted:Nah, here's the afterword where he discusses changing the ending. From his comments it seems the creation of Made in Heaven itself was part of that last minute change, so at the very least C-Moon would likely have played a larger in the original draft. Other than that I guess they'd have killed Pucci and then everyone went home, which Araki seems to think would have been a flat note to end the saga on. I've always felt not like the ending of Part 6 means that that all the rest of JoJo that came before never mattered, but that it all had consequences, that this is what those hundred plus years could lead to, this is the only way all that baggage could end. We don't get to fully explore those consequences or Emporio's life in the new universe, but there's a sense of eerie peaceful, an almost dream-like Lynchian logic to it that I personally like a lot I also like that you can see Araki was already formulating who Johnny would be and I think he pulled that off well
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Jul 8, 2019 17:41
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if "what a wonderful world' doesn't play at the end of part 6 I will throw a fit
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Jul 8, 2019 17:41
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Pucci and DIO want to make a world where fear has been eliminated, where every human knows their fate, their role, their place in the world and with that acceptance comes Heaven. And I really can't think of a better way to end it then with the exact opposite, with a world of people who we don't really know where they came from, and certainly not where they're going. That mystery and adventure is what makes the world so wonderful
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Jul 8, 2019 17:43
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Condiv posted:if "what a wonderful world' doesn't play at the end of part 6 I will throw a fit
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Jul 8, 2019 17:46
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Stone Ocean's credits song will be the Johnny Ramone cover but will switch to the original version at the very end.
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Jul 8, 2019 18:02
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Pretty sure the OP change will be right after Jolyne breaks out and the villains become the children of DIO. First OP should be punk rock while second should be metal. Hoping at least one of them has a "legacy of Joestars" thing going on like Stand Proud did, since this is the last part before the reboot.
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Jul 8, 2019 18:07
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Once Made in Heaven shows up, the OP should speed up, then very quickly cycle through all the previous JoJo OPs before returning to the final refrain. Also, Sono Chi no Sadame (sung by everyone from every previous OP) should play during the final fight between Emporio/Weather Report and Pucci.
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Jul 8, 2019 18:33
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I know we're a bit past this point I guess, but I just kind of wanted to comment on this too. My issue with Giorno is not with the actual character so much as how I feel the character loses focus in ways that hurt his place in the narrative. At the start of Golden Wind he comes off very strong and I mean that in a good way. Giorno's resolve, the fights he gets in, and even small moments like drinking the piss that while absurd are still ways to show his dedication to his end goal of taking the boss' place. The problem I feel is when the Squadra enters the picture and the scope of the narrative shifts from being about Giorno working his way through the ranks of Passione and it becomes Bruno's Gang trying protect Trish and get her to the boss with the underlying narrative of Bruno and Giorno using this as a way to get to the boss himself. Once these fights start happening you get to see Bruno's group as a unit more and a lot of the connecting tissue is that Bruno brought everyone together through his own belief in them as people. They all defer to him because they respect him, even Abbachio who spends two separate fights endlessly giving Giorno poo poo respects the hell out of Bruno. This coupled with the fact that every time one of the enemy stand users talk about the group they all seem to know Bruno and talk him up and mention how crazy strong his squad is. This coupled with Bruno having some of the most memorable fights in Part 5 and being the one who challenges the Boss to save Trish and turns the story on its head makes it easy to forget that Giorno is the loving protagonist and the story is still supposed to be about him. Even when characters are talking him up it doesn't happen often and in the case of Trish feels entirely fake. This is not to say Giorno isn't also awesome in his own right. The insane extents he goes to to show his loyalty to the group and his cause is nuts. The Cioccolatta fight is absolutely my favorite Giorno fight as it demonstrates a lot of ingenuity on Giorno's part and his sheer hatred for Cioccolatta being an inhumane monster of a person leading to him punching him into the trash is a really strong fight for him as a character. He gets other stuff like being a supporting role in the Squalo and Tiziano fight where he acts as Narancia's support and I completely forgot how much he got hosed up in that fight and it made me really respect him. The same goes for when Mista fights Ghiaccio and Ghiaccio's insane tunnel vision makes him forget Giorno existed. The problem here is though is that I felt by this point, Giorno was just another member of the group of the group who I liked a lot like the rest sans Fugo and I was reading the narrative because I wanted to see Bruno and his gang take down the boss. The last thing that really does in Giorno's status in the narrative for me is Diavolo. Diavolo is just not a very well made antagonist for Giorno I feel, at least from the perspective of what the narrative had been building to. He spends half of the story on a computer monitor then when he is confronted it is by Bruno and his severe hate boner for Bruno's squad comes largely as a result of that entire altercation. The next time he interacts with anyone it's Bruno again through Doppio. The narrative and main antagonistic relationship being continuously fostered throughout is not Giorno and Diavolo, it is Bruno and Diavolo. This leads to the climax that is already bad for a number of reasons, but you can add on what feels like a really disconnected final battle Hero and Villain relationship to the mix and it ends with Giorno's place in the story feeling kind of flaccid and underdeveloped even though a decent amount of work was put in to make the alternative happen. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 19:05
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Funky Valentine posted:Stone Ocean's credits song will be the Johnny Ramone cover but will switch to the original version at the very end. Nah, make it the Ministry version. Both times.
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Jul 8, 2019 19:46
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the ending sucks
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Jul 8, 2019 20:36
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Aurora posted:the ending sucks you suck
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Jul 8, 2019 20:53
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yeah actually they will posted:you suck gently caress you
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Jul 8, 2019 20:56
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Aurora posted:the ending sucks
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Jul 8, 2019 21:00
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yeah actually they will posted:you suck
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Jul 8, 2019 21:11
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yeah actually they will posted:you suck
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Jul 8, 2019 21:12
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your asses are mine
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Jul 8, 2019 21:18
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all the sons of dio fights are some of the worst poo poo i've ever seen, but the ending is cool e: EXCEPT SKY HIGH that kicks rear end
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Jul 8, 2019 21:23
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Captain Baal posted:The last thing that really does in Giorno's status in the narrative for me is Diavolo. Diavolo is just not a very well made antagonist for Giorno I feel, at least from the perspective of what the narrative had been building to. He spends half of the story on a computer monitor then when he is confronted it is by Bruno and his severe hate boner for Bruno's squad comes largely as a result of that entire altercation. The next time he interacts with anyone it's Bruno again through Doppio. The narrative and main antagonistic relationship being continuously fostered throughout is not Giorno and Diavolo, it is Bruno and Diavolo. This leads to the climax that is already bad for a number of reasons, but you can add on what feels like a really disconnected final battle Hero and Villain relationship to the mix and it ends with Giorno's place in the story feeling kind of flaccid and underdeveloped even though a decent amount of work was put in to make the alternative happen. I hadn't really connected this together before but yeah, this is just another facet of Diavolo being largely disconnected to the narrative aside from being The Bad Guy and eventually Who Will Kill Trish being added onto that I'm also realizing that almost every villain interaction Giorno has is basically "this must be that rookie" -> "drat this rookies good!!" which just speaks to this narrative distance between Giorno and like, every enemy including I think Diavolo? This is still one of my favorite parts entirely off of how good a lot of the fights are, but it really just whiffs at building a good antagonist at all lol
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Jul 8, 2019 21:24
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Sky High loving owns but I also hate most of Part 6 fights
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Jul 8, 2019 21:24
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Of the top of my head Goo Goo Dolls is the worst Part 6 fight, I always hated it for some reason. I don't think Dragon's Dream is as bad as people say it is either. somepartsareme posted:all the sons of dio fights are some of the worst poo poo i've ever seen, but the ending is cool
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Jul 8, 2019 22:14
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Yeah Underworld has some of the best panels in all of JoJo
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Jul 8, 2019 22:20
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dragon's dream is funny because he told the guy to drink piss
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Jul 8, 2019 22:21
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I really wish araki had kept doppio as a significant part of the finale. I feel like Doppio is a huge part of what makes the boss character so compelling initially and he basically just gets written out.
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Jul 8, 2019 22:29
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comedyblissoption posted:I feel like Doppio is a huge part of what makes the boss character so compelling and by that you mean "literally the only interesting thing about him"
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Jul 8, 2019 22:39
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somepartsareme posted:all the sons of dio fights are some of the worst poo poo i've ever seen, but the ending is cool What? Sky high is the bad one. Underground and Bohemian Rhapsody kick rear end
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Jul 8, 2019 22:47
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definitely not a high bar to clear when diavolo kind of has nothing going for him by design, which as it turns out is a super poor way to get people to give a poo poo about a character
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Jul 8, 2019 22:47
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Meme Emulator posted:What? Sky high is the bad one. Underground and Bohemian Rhapsody kick rear end Sky High is good too because it's the one where Jolyne lights herself on fire
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Jul 8, 2019 22:49
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the voice acting has sold diavolo as the lovely dude he is and it's a good performance tbh
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Jul 8, 2019 22:52
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Sky High owns, just listen to this poo poo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjtD8A-MWBc
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Jul 8, 2019 22:52
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lmao at anyone who says sky high isn't good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJrJ3MA50Ys
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Jul 8, 2019 22:54
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Aurora posted:the voice acting has sold diavolo as the lovely dude he is and it's a good performance tbh The dude who voiced Kamina and Volfogg is good yeah
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Jul 8, 2019 22:57
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Jolyne getting run over by the Miami Dolphins is good, actually. Now that I think about, a lot of out of context stuff I saw from Part 6 is what got me into it in the first place (everything about F.F, "Where the gently caress is Mickey?!", "Annasui: Doesn't really understand what's going on", Hermes on the phone with Emporio trying to explain what the gently caress is happening), so credit where it's due, I guess.
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Jul 8, 2019 23:01
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i'm apollo 11
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Jul 8, 2019 23:06
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Aurora posted:dragon's dream is funny because he told the guy to drink piss Nobody has any jellyfish though.
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Jul 9, 2019 04:56
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