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surf rock posted:I also kind of hate Shinji, and I feel like he's going to get a lot worse from here. He goes from zero emotion to I HATE YOU DAD real quick, but he does have a slight sense of humor here and ultimately agrees to do the mission so that the dying lady doesn't have to, so there are some redeeming factors out of the gate. Again, though, I feel like this is probably a high point for him and it's already Not Great. in the first episode, the show's trying to establish that piloting the robot is dangerous and terrifying in-universe, basically. also like ironicdongz said, gendo showing up out of nowhere after 3 years to demand shinji pilot the robot is a pretty absurd expectation. shinji gets more likable once you get to know him better, imo. the next couple episodes flesh out his character a bit further than "scared kid who hates his dad"
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Jul 13, 2019 22:21
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It's interesting to hear that the first episode isn't that appealing because I feel like the first and second episodes are a great introduction, just throwing you into those world and giving strong character sketches in only 48 minutes (one of the Waypoint guys compares Gendo to a silent, indifferent God off his first apperance and I love that, that's exactly what Anno, and Gendo himself, wants to be portrayed as), all while looking great and having such a strong and intense mood. Not trying to say your impression are Wrong, but it's just interesting seeing so many different people come to Eva for the very first time. I feel like a rewatch is so integral to Eva. I feel like that's an absurd demand, but now that I'm not trying to learn the story from scratch, I'm noticing so much great cinematography and character moments and enjoying it a lot more, just generally "Getting" it a lot more
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Jul 13, 2019 22:30
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are you watching in english or japanese? because shinji speaking english is super annoying but with the original voices he's cool
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Jul 13, 2019 22:34
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noether posted:shinji gets more likable once you get to know him better, imo.
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Jul 13, 2019 22:36
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The situation with Lilith and the lance never rang as inconsistent to me. (spoiler tagging because we've got new blood) I figured that the spear was keeping Lilith suppressed rather than actively stopping her from doing anything. They only found the Lance during the course of the series (it was when Gendo and Fuyutsuki went to the South Pole) so Lilith, much like all the angels, probably slept for the 15 years or so between Second Impact and the events of the show. When people grow out of Lilith and she drops from the cross I think it's less that she's suddenly awake and active and more that all the growth she was supposed to do in the past few months accelerated all at once, making her too heavy for the cross to keep her trapped. The way Lilith moves doesn't look like the breaking free of a giant that was kept suppressed against its will for years, rather its just... A lazy droop, like she's just rolling off her bed and isn't even aware of everything happening around her. That makes sense if we're going with the idea that Rei 3 is the one with Lilith's soul at that time. It's not like they struggle to see which one gets to initiate Third Impact, Rei is fully in charge by that point. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jul 13, 2019 |
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Jul 13, 2019 22:43
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Expect My Mom posted:It's interesting to hear that the first episode isn't that appealing because I feel like the first and second episodes are a great introduction, just throwing you into those world and giving strong character sketches in only 48 minutes (one of the Waypoint guys compares Gendo to a silent, indifferent God off his first apperance and I love that, that's exactly what Anno, and Gendo himself, wants to be portrayed as), all while looking great and having such a strong and intense mood. Not trying to say your impression are Wrong, but it's just interesting seeing so many different people come to Eva for the very first time. Just watched the second episode. I liked it more. Nailed my read on Misato's character out of the gate, hell yeah. I get what folks are saying about Shinji, and I'm not saying his reaction was unrealistic, but I sure didn't think to myself "wow, I can't wait to spend more time with this character" while I was watching it. I am watching in English, and I don't think that it has anything whatsoever to do with his voice actor. The voice acting is totally fine. IronicDongz posted:he's not even unlikeable. he doesn't want to die lmao I figure if a monster's destroying the city and you're told that you're the only person who can do something about it and you're given a big robot suit with which to fight it, I feel like you should want to try it out if you don't want to die. Yeah, you still might die in the robot suit, but you're sure as hell going to die if you just sit around and wait. Incidentally, I think that everything that happens after he gets in the suit (freaking out when the goo appears, struggling to use the robot, getting his rear end kicked, and blacking out) is also all totally fine. surf rock fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 13, 2019 |
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Jul 13, 2019 22:46
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I would never in a million years get in the robot and I strongly doubt more than at most like 20% of people would. I would gently caress off to a shelter immediately
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Jul 13, 2019 22:59
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there would be a me shaped hole in the wall as soon as anyone told me to get in the robot
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Jul 13, 2019 23:01
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surf rock posted:Just watched the second episode. I liked it more. Nailed my read on Misato's character out of the gate, hell yeah. I think that very much depends on how much you trust the dad who abandoned you and then only got back into contact to manipulate you into helping with his weird bullshit. Especially when it is, on its face, such an incredibly unlikely way to deal with a giant monster problem. Like, he's surrounded by trained soldiers, and only he, a skinny, passive fourteen-year-old with no combat experience, can pilot the giant robot and save the city from the terrifying alien monster that shrugs off antimatter bombs? Pull the other one.
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Jul 13, 2019 23:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ4Ss_0xcZw 
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Jul 13, 2019 23:08
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"World building is bad" is one of the spicier takes I've seen in my time. Like I realize story comes first and a well crafted world with a boring plot is pointless, but drat. The works that I've liked best work on multiple levels. Like you got your surface level action or spectacle or drama and also have literary depth, symbolism, commentary on society and human condition etc.
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Jul 13, 2019 23:24
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redsniper posted:"World building is bad" is one of the spicier takes I've seen in my time. Like I realize story comes first and a well crafted world with a boring plot is pointless, but drat. i dont think those things you listed are worldbuilding even if worldbuilding contributes to them to a degree
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Jul 13, 2019 23:37
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yes yes YESSSSssss
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Jul 13, 2019 23:39
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surf rock posted:but I sure didn't think to myself "wow, I can't wait to spend more time with this character" while I was watching it. Except for Aoba, he seems pretty chill.
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Jul 13, 2019 23:42
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Aoba, Misato and Asuka are my list of Eva characters that are cool and I'd hang out with
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Jul 13, 2019 23:47
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ArfJason posted:i dont think those things you listed are worldbuilding even if worldbuilding contributes to them to a degree Yeah those were really two different points I wanted to make that got jumbled up. I guess world building is mostly a matter of fleshing out the setting and the setting could be either surface detail or a crucial part of a story depending on the work. Either way I don't think it would ever hurt a story to show the setting some love. Eva is obviously characters first, but the details of daily life in Tokyo 3, how NERV operates etc. make for a richer experience even if they aren't crucial to the story.
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Jul 14, 2019 00:20
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IronicDongz posted:he's not even unlikeable. he doesn't want to die lmao I don't disagree, I just know a lot of people get hung up on his characterization in that one scene and write him off immediately
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Jul 14, 2019 00:27
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redsniper posted:Yeah those were really two different points I wanted to make that got jumbled up. I guess world building is mostly a matter of fleshing out the setting and the setting could be either surface detail or a crucial part of a story depending on the work. Either way I don't think it would ever hurt a story to show the setting some love. yeah, agreed
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Jul 14, 2019 00:28
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redsniper posted:"World building is bad" is one of the spicier takes I've seen in my time. Like I realize story comes first and a well crafted world with a boring plot is pointless, but drat. Setting is good. When people talk about "world-building" they're talking about fixating on the details of a fictional world that aren't actually relevant to a work of fiction; basically the point at which you're including information for the sake of people who wish they could live there or out of some sense that details need to be decided for the sake of completeness than because it communicates something in the narrative. Think Tolkien, or Wookiepedia.
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Jul 14, 2019 00:52
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my favorite example of this is ritsuko, aoba and maya having to pick up their clothes at a coin laundry, as if NERV doesn't have some set up for this and then Aoba goes "You should be glad that you at least sleep at home" which implies either Aoba doesn't have a place of his own or that NERV has dorms somewhere down there? it tells that living in tokyo-3 sucks on just a convenience level
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Jul 14, 2019 00:57
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Expect My Mom posted:my favorite example of this is ritsuko, aoba and maya having to pick up their clothes at a coin laundry, as if NERV doesn't have some set up for this and then Aoba goes "You should be glad that you at least sleep at home" which implies either Aoba doesn't have a place of his own or that NERV has dorms somewhere down there? That, or he has a really heinous workload.
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Jul 14, 2019 00:59
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surf rock posted:Just watched the second episode. I liked it more. Nailed my read on Misato's character out of the gate, hell yeah. How is Shinji not likable when he's refusing to pilot a giant murder machine just because? All of these "child soldiers are forced to fight an incomprehensible enemy that might not be so different from themselves because their elders won't communicate with them" plotlines are just very thinly veiled World War II allegories, even if that tends to be sidelined later. And I must add that the new dub makes Shinji much more likable than the old one where you could hear the disdain dripping from every one of Spencer's lines.
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Jul 14, 2019 01:17
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I ended up in an Evageeks rabbit hole and found this theory about the Rebuild films that is pretty intriguing.
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Jul 14, 2019 04:32
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surf rock posted:- On that topic, why does the blue-hair lady need to wear a skin-tight suit while Shinji can just wear his street clothes? Maybe he gets an actual suit to wear when they're not in a rush. Or maybe he doesn't need the suit because apparently he has a telepathic connection to the robot?
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Jul 14, 2019 04:54
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Because of waypoints doing their review I decided to give the show a rewatch for the first time in like 2 decades and man it still makes me super uncomfortable to watch but it is very intense and pretty while it does it. Its a testament to how well its made when they can make a bazillion dollars off of it even with it's incredibly disturbing parts. EoE was made becuase everyone wanted a real ending and he hated his fans right?
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Jul 14, 2019 04:59
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Invalid Validation posted:EoE was made becuase everyone wanted a real ending and he hated his fans right? It's really hard to get a straight answer on some of this over 20 years of semi-contradictory interviews but it doesn't really track given that the episode preview for 25 doesn't show anything from ep25. It's instead an incredibly weird animatic/the name of ep25', Air. They were planning for that film even before the show ended.
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Jul 14, 2019 05:04
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Invalid Validation posted:Because of waypoints doing their review I decided to give the show a rewatch for the first time in like 2 decades and man it still makes me super uncomfortable to watch but it is very intense and pretty while it does it. Its a testament to how well its made when they can make a bazillion dollars off of it even with it's incredibly disturbing parts. EoE was made becuase everyone wanted a real ending and he hated his fans right?
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Jul 14, 2019 05:06
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Invalid Validation posted:Because of waypoints doing their review I decided to give the show a rewatch for the first time in like 2 decades and man it still makes me super uncomfortable to watch but it is very intense and pretty while it does it. Its a testament to how well its made when they can make a bazillion dollars off of it even with it's incredibly disturbing parts. EoE was made becuase everyone wanted a real ending and he hated his fans right?
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Jul 14, 2019 05:12
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not all of those letters at the end of EoE are hateful iirc. Some are actually nice
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Jul 14, 2019 05:14
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I was just going off what I remembered from a long time ago. It does kinda feel like ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?! When you’re watching it.
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Jul 14, 2019 05:17
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If EoE truly was intended to be a middle finger to Eva fans, than I don't think that I'd think of it as a genuinely positive movie that ends as "happily" as it could but I might be the kind of Eva fan Anno would be angry at, if he ever was
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Jul 14, 2019 05:41
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I do remember reading that Anno was somewhat frustrated that he made Rei as a deconstructed version of the shy yamato nadeshiko girl and was disgusted that everyone embraced her despite her creepy details. If we have learned anything from the last twenty years, it is that subversion rarely executes the way you want it.
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Jul 14, 2019 05:46
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btw i see this guy's avatar every now and then and lol a bit https://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=209299
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Jul 14, 2019 05:54
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EoE was based off of the original script for episodes 25 and 26 which couldn't be made during airing due to time constraints or maybe the network not wanting to air it, for some reason this is difficult to pin down. Here's a link about the scripts https://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:End_of_Evangelion_Screenplays It wasn't a middle finger or anything. From interviews it sounds like EoE was, if anything, intended to appease fans who were dissatisfied with the original last two eps. quote:Sadamoto: (Kotono Mistuishi) cried reading a script, for example. When Anno-san heard that - guts pose! (laughing) the death threats that people always point to were in reference to Death and Rebirth, which was a long recap of the series and the first 25 minutes of EoE, shown in theaters before the whole movie was complete maybe for contractual reasons. https://wiki.evageeks.org/End_of_Evangelion_Death_Threats lets hang out fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 06:20
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I remember someone mentioning that they literally ran out of budget for the last few episodes or something, so thats how the movies came along.
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Jul 14, 2019 06:58
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That's not true. From what I've read, it was a time issue. It seems they originally planed to have the Japanese government raiding NERV that we see in End of Eva, but whatever they had in mind edged too close to the Sarin gas attacks in Tokyo by a doomsday cult that happened barely a year ago at the time for TV network staff (think of how so many things had to be changed or edited due to 9/11), so they were forced to go back to the drawing board with so little time left to rewrite and animate the last two episodes, leading to what we got. also god i totally forgot how Episode 25 starts in Instrumentality. Wonder if I should intercut those last two episodes with EoE on my rewatch Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 07:08
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The story behind Episodes 25 and 26 and EoE is super contradictory and constantly changes. At this point, it's as open to interpretation as the endings themselves.
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Jul 14, 2019 07:31
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I ended up in an Evageeks rabbit hole and found this theory about the Rebuild films that is pretty intriguing. my head is fuckin spinning after reading through that, but drat if they weren't thorough. I remember when I watched 1.0 and 2.0 ages ago, I didn't really pick up on how different the continuity is. I really have no idea what that blake stuff is about, or how his specific mythology would play into that of the rebuilds beyond what reichu outlined in there, but I'd be interested in seeing how much further that connection could be taken. tangentially, idk if anyone here is familiar with the essay neoreaction: a basilisk, but I read it a couple weeks back and I kept picking up on tons of overlap between the themes that come up in the essay and in NGE, especially with respect to stuff like dealing with the boundaries between the self and the other, blurring the lines between hauntological and weird horror, boys who have trouble understanding women, and the whole shopenhauer "is nonexistence preferable to consciousness?" discussion. towards the end, there's a lengthy digression into blake's mythology, so it's a little spooky to see another weird coincidental thread between them there, to me at least. no idea if any of that's relevant or interesting to anyone besides me, though.
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Jul 14, 2019 08:07
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The most plausible theory I've heard so far for why 25 and 26 are what they are, is that Anno was submitting final scripts extremely late in the back half of the series due to depression, which meant that nobody was really checking them for objectionable content before animation was able to start, which meant that when the episode with Misato and Kaji's sex scene aired it caught the network and sponsors completely off guard. they sent someone to Gainax to personally approve everything from that point on, which caused even more delays and also torpedoed some of their plans for the original ending, meaning that what we got was basically what they could get done in time with approval.
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Jul 14, 2019 09:08
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There's a pretty good recap blog series over at Mubi for those interested: https://mubi.com/notebook/posts/neon-genesis-evangelion-episodes-1-4-the-trauma-of-shinji-ikari
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Jul 14, 2019 09:39
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