|
Projecting your own real-life experiences on stories is part of the fun of watching things and trying to understand characters, nothing wrong with that. If you want to see where Kaji's dated behaviors are lifted from from check out Col. Freeman's "cool 60's man" vibe in the first episode of ufo. Also here's a thing from the front of the 1.11 disc guide about the movies. 
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 04:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:52 |
|
|
Charlatan Eschaton posted:Projecting your own real-life experiences on stories is part of the fun of watching things and trying to understand characters, nothing wrong with that. I was more thinking that since I'm three or four years distanced from the text itself in full (I rewatched the tail-end of the TV series recently), I should ask if the text actually supports it. Kaji is very much an rear end in a top hat, I'm just trying to see if my perceptions were just projected.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 04:37
|
|
|
Watch ufo if you want to see another character behave similarly, it might help you understand what type of rear end in a top hat he is/ where that part of his character came from. I know it's another show and not part of the text so you can ignore it, but it's something else for you to compare to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:The Bible isn't a feminist text in the sense that it was influenced by the modern intellectual tradition of feminism (obviously) but one of the things that made early Christianity so appealing to converts was that it was a religion that women (and slaves) could belong to and even potentially be community leaders in. This is all relative to the standards of the time, and obviously Christianity's role in society today is very different than it was 2000 years ago, but there's a genuinely fruitful line of inquiry in terms of looking at the Bible and Christ's teachings as they would have been understood to women seeking liberation then. Paul says that women should cover their heads because of "the angels," i.e. that the angels would actually be compelled to leave their heavently estate and descend to Earth due to their beauty, after the manner of the Book of Enoch. This is just completely alien to a modern conception, but it's how people in the first century thought. So knowledge of context is important. And we can just go "ha! Japan is crazy, am i rite?" but it's mostly a holdover of stuff that was totally normal in Hollywood movies up to the 70's. And to Anno's credit, he does seem to have a keen interest in trying to understand women beyond the tsundere archetype he helped create.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 06:21
|
|
|
The problem is Anno's attempts to understand women come off like someone hiding in the bushes trying to psychologically analyze a gorilla tribe as opposed to just like interacting with women more and figuring it out from there
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 06:24
|
|
|
He's a married man, so hopefully he's trying to understand at least one nowadays
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 06:36
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:kaji clearly thinks it never ended, but misato's reaction indicates it very much did He flirting with Ibuki is really bad. However, he only does it once and only it where Misato can see him and stops when she steps in. Whenever Misato is not around he acts normal Pretty much all the adult characters have some sort of trauma or emotional arrested development (e.g Ritsukos mother issues, Misatos relationship with her father etc). Kaji acts like a teen who can't get over his ex and responds by trying to make her jealous at every opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 13:52
|
|
|
Charlatan Eschaton posted:Projecting your own real-life experiences on stories is part of the fun of watching things and trying to understand characters, nothing wrong with that. "but in these 12 years, there has been no newer anime than eva" Yinlock posted:bulletpoint #2 of being a depressed mecha director going through a midlife crisis is "has Serious Issues about women"
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 15:50
|
|
|
I'm losing the plot a little bit on what you're trying to argue.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 16:57
|
|
|
Anno's following the Miyazaki "anime was a mistake" old codger thing. Honestly, aside from Gurren Lagan, I'm not sure what would count as a series that takes the medium forward. Kill la Kill is good but there's so much cringey male gaze that you have to watch in a bunker.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:15
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Anno's following the Miyazaki "anime was a mistake" old codger thing. Yuasa's work is routinely impressive, Yuzuru Tachikawa is a major new talent, Takahiko Kyogoku's Land of the Lustrous was a quantum leap in CG animation, SHAFT has spawned lots of talented directors who make excellent use of the medium (whether they still work at the studio or not), and KyoAni are the reigning kings of characterisation through body language in animation. It is still quite rare to see shows that are as directorially adventurous as Evangelion, though, and a lot of those that are often use the toolkit Anno showcased with Evangelion. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:24
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Yuasa's work is routinely impressive, Yuzuru Tachikawa is a major new talent, SHAFT has spawned lots of talented directors who make excellent use of the medium (whether they still work at the studio or not), and KyoAni are the reigning kings of characterisation through body language in animation. It is still quite rare to see shows that are as directorially adventurous as Evangelion, though, and a lot of those that are often use the toolkit Anno showcased with Evangelion. But in on a scale of 1 to Noah Hawley penning a letter to critics huffing his own farts about the Legion S2 finale Anno's comments barely registers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:28
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:Yeah this I don't agree with, it feels super reductive, it's been 24 years since Eva and there's been so many experimental and genre shifts since. There've been a few, but to be honest, revisiting Eva does genuinely make it feel a lot fresher than most of the seasonal anime I've consumed. Conversations between characters in particular do a lot more with body language and shot framing than you tend to see, and action sequences have a sense of weight, mass, and consequence that you don't often see elsewhere. Anno generally feels like he has the imagination to go one step further as a director than most others do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:35
|
|
|
The closest thing to Eva in recent memory was Darling in the Franxx. And while it did do interesting things in respect to society treating teens like a disposable military resource, only to drain them of all individuality and creativity as adults, and the frankly terrifying nature of teenage sexuality in the minds of parents, it really tripped over itself in the end. The points about pushing the visuals of the genre forward are true, though. FLCL did a great job of being multilayered madness. And this is dumb as all gently caress but Chuunibyo2 was some of the most brilliantly beautiful stuff I've seen in a series.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:43
|
|
|
Yeah, hey guys. Yes, this is my handle and has been when I watched Eva for the first time two full decades ago in 1999, when I was uh, 14 years old. To say that I identified with Shinji a great deal is sort of an understatement, given that I had an unaffectionate father I was always trying to please at the time, was terribly socially awkward and had absolutely no clue how to act around girls, though I still tried to fit in. And like Shinji, I had some friends and I did manage to fit in and have fun sometimes. I was also emotionally repressed, had PTSD, no self-confidence, desperately wanted people to just *not hate me* which was something I was always somewhat consumed with. Also, I was queer and did not totally realize it or fully admit it to myself until, literally, I watched Episode 24. No joke. I mean, it was something I'd been vaguely aware of but had been outright refusing to acknowledge in any way at the time, as I *really* wanted to be normal and liked and have a girlfriend and so on. And I had been identifying with Shinji SO STRONGLY through the series, and it was all like a big deal to me at the time - I'd just turned 14, c'mon. So yeah, Eva sort of threw me into a hugely chaotic period where I had to, well... come to terms with a lot of truths about myself. I obviously become a very big fan of it, but I took it a little bit too seriously as a kid, but hey - that's what kids do. I watched for the first time in about 15 years last month, and frankly, I'm still processing it. But to be honest, it actually had a pretty big impact on me in a different way. It actually reminded me what I was like back when I first saw it, and what my life consisted of back then. It was honestly a bit surreal, because it did bring back so many real-life memories I'd not thought about in years and years. It was like therapy in a way, no joke. I felt embarrassed sometimes, and I felt some validation and comfort at other times. It was actually a pretty intense experience for me. The translation obviously annoyed the hell out of me at times, but only really for random weird stuff. Like the heart-shaped sign Misato makes for Shinji's door - they translate it as "Shinji's room", whereas the original translation was "Shinji's Lovely Suite," and that ACTUALLY is important to me. Back in the early 00's I was a big fan of like fluffy romantic doujinshi of Shinji and Kaworu and such, and a big Shinji/Kaworu site back then was called "Shinji's Lovely Suite," and I wound up being e-mail friends with the woman who ran it, who was really nice and had a real life, and wasn't a total weirdo. She died of cancer (Leukemia I think) back in ~2007, and when I saw them mis-translate the sign it both reminded me of her for the first time in at least 5 years or so, and made me feel incredibly sad that she never got to see the Rebuild movies (especially the third one) and wasn't here to enjoy Eva's resurgence on Netflix. I know, it's not really the translator's fault... Just bothers me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 17:48
|
|
|
kaworu posted:Great stuff Reminds me of a lit teacher that talked about revisiting works in her professional career and finding new things in them -- the texts didn't change, but she did. I never knew about the Lovely Suite before. Weird that we get rough rear end poo poo like Kaworu's grace but they go "room = lovely suite? Close enough"
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 18:06
|
|
|
That's a good post, kaworu. For realsies, thanks for sharing it. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:I never knew about the Lovely Suite before. Weird that we get rough rear end poo poo like Kaworu's grace but they go "room = lovely suite? Close enough"
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 18:28
|
|
|
Thanks guys I always feel a bit weird when I get personal about Eva, but for a very long time I only viewed it an perceived it the way I saw it as a 14-year-old - through a very personal lens, because I felt like it related so strongly to my own life. One of the really great things about this last viewing is that I got to appreciate the show in entirely new and different ways, since I can actually be kinda objective about it now, as a 34-year-old. I found myself relating to Misato a lot this time around, appreciating what an hilarious and awesome character Gendo is, aside from his role as a lovely absent father to Shinji. It was a lot of fun to watch it again, from that perspective. But then there's moments like when they deal with the contradictory nature of "The Hedgehog's Dilemma", and I want to burst into tears because it's frankly so prescient about fundamental problems I had growing up and as a young adult, and now that I've actually been through too much therapy and have actually read Schopenhauer and understand it all a bit better (I hope), something about it just feels... I don't know, a little tragic and fatalistic. Like, 'did I have some of these problems because I watched this show and took it all too drat seriously?!' But I don't truly think that's the case, I mean, if it were then I'd have probably had an easier time of fixing them. I actually think it's just smartly very accessible, and stuff like "The Hedgehog's Dilemma" is a pretty fundamental human condition for anyone with a shred of insecurity. I've always felt that the reason why so many people complained about Shinji, or called him a whiner or annoying, was partially because Shinji reminds some people of certain parts of themselves they're uncomfortable with. Especially us Americans - I think it has to do with the concept of what defines masculinity when you're a boy, and coming of age. Shinji pretty much fails any and every test he's given to prove or assert his masculinity. The one moment when he develops enough confidence after having the highest sync rate and being congratulated by his father, he tries to take the macho/masculine role instead of Asuka, and quotes Misato telling him "You are number one!" And of course, this is the moment when he fails epicly, and the angel turns out to be the 'shadow' underneath them, and he basically starts the process of his ego and sense of self totally breaking down while stuck in there. Oh, gosh. The truth is, I could probably ramble about this stuff forever, I'm glad you guys don't think I sound totally dumb... weast posted:I could be misremembering but I believe what the sign says in Japanese is shin chan no heya, with shin chan being a cutesy baby nickname for Shinji so it’s just a cute way of saying Shinji’s room. In a language like Japanese which is just FULL of idioms that are simply impossible to translate literally, the idea is to try and approximate the meaning of that idiom, with as many subtleties intact as you can, while staying absolutely true to the *actual* meaning of the Japanese expression, and I don't mean in a literal way. Hence, you get an english version of the meaning of the idiom, which is, as you said, a cutesy way of saying Shinji's room. I only felt upset about it because my friend named her website after the way they translated that sign in the original show, and the sign was also a little... iconic? The shot of the closed door to Shinji's room is always a pretty meaningful shot in context, whenever it shows up in the series. kaworu fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 18:51
|
|
|
OK, let's rewatch this again. It's been quite a while, if I have to admit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
I've been watching the dub with Japanese subtitles and I've tried to give this version the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't after 20 episodes. This translation would earn a C in in a undergrad Japanese course. It's limp, lifeless, clunky, and completely fails to take into account subtext even when it's glaringly obvious. It's like they read 'Making Sense of Japanese' and decided that it taught them everything they needed to know about translation. The way the script refuses to translate active Japanese sentences into passive voice when that would make for more natural English is baffling. I work in localization and think it's unfair to blame 'the translator.' This was a team effort and a team failure. The team did not understand the work.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I'm losing the plot a little bit on what you're trying to argue. i'm not arguing on that front, just saying that anno's a card-carrying member of the "depressed anime directors who hate everything they did but are nonetheless super full of themselves about it" club Nate RFB posted:But in on a scale of 1 to Noah Hawley penning a letter to critics huffing his own farts about the Legion S2 finale Anno's comments barely registers. though yes it could be way worse
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
OK, I think I see what they meant about the subs/translation/localization being garbage. Also they took off "Fly me to the Moon". I know it's been posted in this thread before, but how do you mess that up? Screw this, I'm seeing this raw. No subtitles.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:45
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:The closest thing to Eva in recent memory was Darling in the Franxx. And while it did do interesting things in respect to society treating teens like a disposable military resource, only to drain them of all individuality and creativity as adults, and the frankly terrifying nature of teenage sexuality in the minds of parents, it really tripped over itself in the end. Absolutely disagree about Franxx. Hell it's not even the most Evangelion-y anime Trigger released that year, since SSSS Gridman manages to evoke the same feeling and direction of Evangelion without Franxx's mistake of trying to emulate the plot structure to frustrating and empty results. What I'm getting at Gridman feels like a personal and well-directed series that meant a lot to its creators while Franxx felt like a room full of people going "what if we made the next Evangelion" like every other bad Eva clone since the late 90's.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
the whole hedgehog's dilemma thing always hit me really hard as a kid, and honestly it still does. I have a hunch that it's probably more pronounced with queer kids, since so much of growing up necessitates learning how to hide certain aspects of ourselves and keeping others at arms length. I know in my case, I grew up being basically terrified of everybody and it's not something I ever really grew out of.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 19:54
|
|
|
The only "bad Eva clone" type show that I feel can kinda still stand some of the test of time is RahXephon, which I'm probably rewatching after I'm done rewatching this, because it's also been a while (probably not as long as EVA, though!) Just finished episode 2. I remember reading in a trivia website that the "Red Bar" version of Iori Yagami's Eight Maidens from KOF 96 to KOF 98 was based in Unit-01 going apeshit, and I think I can kinda see why. Forgot about the nightmarish screams. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 20:23
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:Absolutely disagree about Franxx. Hell it's not even the most Evangelion-y anime Trigger released that year, since SSSS Gridman manages to evoke the same feeling and direction of Evangelion without Franxx's mistake of trying to emulate the plot structure to frustrating and empty results. Yeah, agreed. SSSS.Gridman echoed Eva's core psychological message - there's value in human connection and individual existence in the physical world despite it's inherent distance - and landed it very tightly. Meanwhile FranXX tried to lean into Eva's child-exploitation themes and pro-individuality/anti-singularity aspects and couldn't get out of it's own way to land any of it half as well as Eva or even most other Eva clones.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 20:52
|
|
|
tbh I dropped franxx like halfway through the first episode when they started talking about how heterosexuality was what drove the robots or w/e
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 20:57
|
|
|
Ultraklystron posted:Yeah, agreed. SSSS.Gridman echoed Eva's core psychological message - there's value in human connection and individual existence in the physical world despite it's inherent distance - and landed it very tightly. Meanwhile FranXX tried to lean into Eva's child-exploitation themes and pro-individuality/anti-singularity aspects and couldn't get out of it's own way to land any of it half as well as Eva or even most other Eva clones. Also, it brought in a more-than-generous quantity of NGE's ugly right-wing conspiracy theorist side.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 20:58
|
|
|
noether posted:tbh I dropped franxx like halfway through the first episode when they started talking about how heterosexuality was what drove the robots or w/e
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:00
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/tannerlper/status/1152713503934824448?s=21
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:01
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:It gets worse Is there a summary of this show somewhere? I kind of want to gawk at it without having to watch it. My favorite Eva-alike was Argento Soma, but I think I'm biased because a big chunk of it takes place in my home state of Montana, and they actually got the details right (most shows don't). Haven't watched it in maybe 20 years so undoubtedly it doesn't hold up, but it was pretty.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:03
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/MCKirby11/status/1152954577358114817 Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:10
|
|
|
Dirt Road Junglist posted:Is there a summary of this show somewhere? I kind of want to gawk at it without having to watch it. I imagine MAL has one one of my friends who actually watched it showed me some pics of like, how the cockpits in the mecha are set up so it looks like the pilots are loving which like why??? and also 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
noether posted:I imagine MAL has one  You weren't kidding. That's...a choice they made.Yeah, not gonna watch that one. Woof.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:32
|
|
|
The robbits work for teens because any desire or emotion is bred out of adults. The plugsuits for the girls grow controls and a display interface from the hips, and their "pilot" arrangement is basically face-down, rear end-up for the girls while the guys "pilot" by grabbing into the hip-controls and oh god why.Dirt Road Junglist posted:Is there a summary of this show somewhere? I kind of want to gawk at it without having to watch it. Ages ago, a team of reclusive scientists called APE showed up and gave humanity the key to sustainable power and immortality through cultivation of Magma energy. The Earth is basically ruined and humanity survives in giant domed cities called Plantations. Blue monsters called Klaxosaurs begin attacking, and giant robots called Franxx, piloted by male-female pairs, are developed to fight them. A horned girl named 02 encounters our protagonist and takes a liking to him after licking him. She's a "partner killer" who sucks the life out of her partner while piloting a Franxx. He survives and they become a team. Cue intrigue. We later find out that Dr. Franx found a Klaxosaur queen and cloned her to make 02 and a series of other elite pilots. Franx also is obsessed with the queen and creates an Ur-Franxx designed to be piloted by her and him. Magma energy is actually derived from the Klaxosaurs, who have given up their forms to transform into giant bioweapons to fight against the pillaging of their population for fuel. We learn that psychosexual energy helps pilots synchronize, and that emotion is stripped out of adults as a condition of their immortality. Also all life is genetically engineered and no one fucks anymore, except for two of the pilots on the team who end up getting mindwiped after the girl gets pregnant. APE turns most of the adults into energy, leaving the kids without guidance of FATHER and no supply drops, leaving them to rediscover farming and basic civilization poo poo. APE is discovered to infiltrated by an alien hive mind called VIRM who basically Borgs civilizations into their singularity and were fought off by the Klaxosaurs before humanity developed. 02 and the protag fight off VIRM and leave in the ultramech to take the fight to their homeworld. Protag is slowly turning into a hybrid and growing horns thanks to his contact with 02. In a flashback we learn 02 escaped from her lab as a child (and looked less human) but came across the protag as a child. They ran away and he told her the story of a demon who so loved a prince that she became human for him (prompting 02 to become human over time). The last part of the series shows life continuing on Earth as civilization slowly rebuilds, with their former teammates aging and vmbecoming leaders while the SuperFranx (who goes full Diebuster and looks like 02) destroys a VIRM assault group. VIRM vows to return one day as the souls of 02 and Protag travel back to a now-advanced Earth and are reborn, fated to meet and reunite in peace time. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 22:50
|
|
|
Franxx started off seeming to have a lot to say about relationships and was super interesting but most of that development didn't end up going anywhere and then it fell up its own rear end by pulling a bunch of dumbass EPIC AND OVER THE TOP twists to try to ape Gurren Lagann and Diebuster
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:(a very good FranXX summary) Man, seeing it all laid out like makes me realize another problem with FranXX was incessant cribbing of concepts from other shows. Kill La Kill arguably does the same thing as FranXX (collectivist aliens are the real enemy,) but it hits those beats so much better.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 23:18
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:*snip* What the ever living christ. I'm glad I passed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 23:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:52 |
|
|
iospace posted:What the ever living christ.  Thx for the write-up, FilthyImp. That is...something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 23:30
|
|