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SHISHKABOB posted:Misato doesn't start feeling guilty about sex, she's felt that way probably her whole life, or at least started sometime near the end of her relationship with Kaji.
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Aug 5, 2019 02:11
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This is such a bizarre take to me. Do you think it's a good idea to put a depressed person under a tonne of pressure in the hopes they'll magically get better when faced with some difficult task? If so then I'm glad we have Evangelion, a story from someone in the midst of an ongoing struggle with depression, as a counterpoint to that idea. In a lot of ways, the difficult task of piloting an Eva is a stand-in for living life -- which yes, is hard, and yes, I do think that depressed people should live life. The missing angle here is whether Shinji had the support he needed. Maybe you can argue that Misato failed to offer this support, but that's not what the show punishes her for and I don't think the show makes a big deal out of; the only one getting blame for lack of support IIRC is Gendo. SHISHKABOB posted:Misato doesn't start feeling guilty about sex, she's felt that way probably her whole life, or at least started sometime near the end of her relationship with Kaji. I meant "start" as in "the writers started to make her feel guilty about sex at around episode 20."
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Aug 5, 2019 02:17
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Jay-V posted:In a lot of ways, the difficult task of piloting an Eva is a stand-in for living life I do not think that the show thinks that piloting an Eva is a stand-in for living life, in part because the show never seems to suggest that piloting an Eva is anything other than miserable bullshit that nobody in their right mind should go anywhere near and that the kids do pretty much exclusively because powerful adults who ought to know better manipulate them to do so in pursuit of their own selfish ends Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 02:20
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Jay-V posted:In a lot of ways, the difficult task of piloting an Eva is a stand-in for living life -- which yes, is hard, and yes, I do think that depressed people should live life. You might have to explain that, because piloting an Eva isn't a metaphor for 'living life' - it's an aberration, a disruption to the normal life that Shinji would prefer.
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Aug 5, 2019 02:21
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Like the Evas are horrible genetic abominations that exist solely because an illuminati death-cult wanted to end the world The show doesn't really ultimately skimp on the point that Evas are bad things designed by worse people for the express purpose of doing the worst things
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Aug 5, 2019 02:25
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One of the key revelations Shinji has in episode 26 is that it's possible for him to not be an Eva pilot, and to live life happily doing something else. It's not supposed to be a stand-in for living life, rather it's a hated task that Shinji does out of a sense of obligation to others. Beyond that though it seems extremely obvious to me that Shinji never receives the love and support that any young person, yet alone one with depression, should. The closest he gets is Kaworu, and, well...
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Aug 5, 2019 02:26
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Piloting an Eva is also shown to be traumatic in basically every way. Even from the outset the pilot is submerged in a liquid they then have to breathe which triggers a drowning reflex, any damage the Eva sustains is transferred to the pilot, you can literally be deconstructed on a molecular level and absorbed into one and that isn't even getting in to the insanity of the things you fight or how they can hurt you and everyone around you
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Aug 5, 2019 02:29
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If the Evas are meant to be a "stand-in" for anything, I'd say they represent the sort of pursuits young adults are taught to throw themselves into out of a sense of obligation and duty to society, even though they're really part of a machine meant to grind them into meat for the benefit of an elite few at the top, and can't ever actually bring the young people on the bottom any happiness or lasting validation. But that's not even really a "stand-in", that's just literally, textually what happens to Shinji. Piloting an Eva is a form of violence that is inflicted upon him - and the other children - by a generation that ought to know better.
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Aug 5, 2019 02:31
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I love Misato a lot, she is ostensibly the "hero" we are offered in this story and she always drives her energy even if it's somewhat self-destructive towards seemingly positive goals. But her spurning of Shinji at the end of episode 24 is one of the greatest missteps any adult outside of Gendo makes in the story and is a falling domino that pushes Shinji into the state that makes him (at least initially) want to commence the Third Impact.
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Aug 5, 2019 02:36
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Yo yo I agree Evas are big old weapons, huge unfair burdens that have to be piloted because of an irresponsible older generation. But time and time again, people implore Shinji to actually use Unit 01 rather than just accept death. Asuka basically gives up at life after becoming unable to sync. Yui, as an Eva, goes on to live forever. They're also basically big giant moms, complete with umbilical cords and amniotic fluid. I'm not saying it's a 1:1 metaphor, I'm saying that there are easily a number of examples where the show essentially says, piloting an Eva = live your life. This is all in the context of the question of whether it is fair to expect someone like Shinji to step up and protect his friends. My point is he's already done this multiple times over the course of the series*. If the main thing that's different this time is that he killed Kowaru in episode 24... this just simply did not feel proportionate and the Kowaru relationship simply needed much more time to sink in. (I will admit that one of the most powerful moments in the series was the agonizing wait before Unit 01 pops off Kowaru's head.) *edit - series, not movie Jay-V fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 02:58
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Spiritus Nox posted:Like Honest question then: how do you stop the Angels? I understand the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe but if the out-of-universe message is Evas are bad and the in-universe message is they are the only thing keeping everyone alive, I don't really know what the show wants me to think.
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Aug 5, 2019 03:08
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NikkolasKing posted:Honest question then: how do you stop the Angels? I understand the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe but if the out-of-universe message is Evas are bad and the in-universe message is they are the only thing keeping everyone alive, I don't really know what the show wants me to think. To piggyback on this, did the show explain why the Angels started to appear after 15 years in the first place? I might have missed this, but if it's not in the show then the previous question is even more important.
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Aug 5, 2019 03:11
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Jay-V posted:To piggyback on this, did the show explain why the Angels started to appear after 15 years in the first place? I might have missed this, but if it's not in the show then the previous question is even more important. I think the Dead Sea Scrolls basically said "Hey in XXXXX years Angels will awaken" and SEELE extrapolated that from 1946/47–1956 (when they were discovered) into 60 odd years from now.
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Aug 5, 2019 03:22
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Jay-V posted:Yo yo I agree Evas are big old weapons, huge unfair burdens that have to be piloted because of an irresponsible older generation. Asuka tying her will to live with being a good Eva pilot is also explicitly noted as being bad for her mental state and self-image. She, like Shinji, needs to divorce herself from that mindset. Yui goes on to live forever, sure - but she's also the one who basically set all the trauma into action out of some notion that she had to prove humanity still existed. quote:This is all in the context of the question of whether it is fair to expect someone like Shinji to step up and protect his friends. My point is he's already done this multiple times over the course of the series*. If the main thing that's different this time is that he killed Kowaru in episode 24... this just simply did not feel proportionate and the Kowaru relationship simply needed much more time to sink in. (I will admit that one of the most powerful moments in the series was the agonizing wait before Unit 01 pops off Kowaru's head.) It isn't just Kaworu. He's merely the capstone. Shinji begins spiraling down toward his EoE mindset as far back as when Unit 01 maims Touji. While killing Kaworu drives Shinji pretty low, it's the act that drives Shinji into catatonia and inaction is jacking off over Asuka's comatose body.
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Aug 5, 2019 03:43
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Jay-V posted:But time and time again, people implore Shinji to actually use Unit 01 rather than just accept death. Asuka basically gives up at life after becoming unable to sync. And the final reveal is that this is a bad lovely false dichotomy, set up by people who have utterly failed to understand or look after Shinji's most basic needs. Shinji's whole big liberating revelation in the TV ending is "....Oh. I don't need to loving be here." The whole notion that he can only live - can only have value - by piloting an Eva is very explicitly a fundamental part of what's making Shinji and Asuka and even Rei in her own way loving miserable.
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Aug 5, 2019 03:44
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Jay-V posted:To piggyback on this, did the show explain why the Angels started to appear after 15 years in the first place? I might have missed this, but if it's not in the show then the previous question is even more important. The implication of the "gosh, if sparks just happened to randomly land on your head then of course you'd brush them off" speech (around ep 4 I think but I can't double check atm) is that NERV/SEELE/the people in charge provoked the Angels into attacking. And given that the Angel attacks just so happen after NERV got the first couple Eva units operable as Angel countermeasures (just in time to save the day after conventional forces failed) the provocation seems, if not deliberate, then at least anticipated. This is also the answer to "how do you protect humans without Evas" question: you wouldn't have to. The Angels are not aggressive. The responsible adults are not the good guys.
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Aug 5, 2019 04:05
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The thing about depression is that it doesn’t evaporate. You have to actively choose life, every day. Get therapy, possibly meds. Depression doesn’t leave just because there’s a crisis or because you need to do something. Some people can rise above it but many can’t. It was a brave and interesting choice to make Shinji the protagonist when he was unable to let go of his depression and trauma until he had a chance to talk it out with the people close to him. There are plenty of stories where a protagonist bootstraps their way to being healed of grief because The Cause Needs Them. Shinji’s story was more realistic and engaging specifically because he can’t do that. He’s too injured and hurt.
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Aug 5, 2019 04:14
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Zeruel posted:I think the Dead Sea Scrolls basically said "Hey in XXXXX years Angels will awaken" and SEELE extrapolated that from 1946/47–1956 (when they were discovered) into 60 odd years from now. If they're prophecied, then NikkolasKing's question is actually super important... Like, what are people supposed to do if super destructive Angels are predetermined to arrive, if not create something like the Evas? I assumed that the Angels came because humans hosed around and caused the Second Impact, but this sounds like it's the other way around. Spiritus Nox posted:And the final reveal is that this is a bad lovely false dichotomy, set up by people who have utterly failed to understand or look after Shinji's most basic needs. Shinji's whole big liberating revelation in the TV ending is "....Oh. I don't need to loving be here." The whole notion that he can only live - can only have value - by piloting an Eva is very explicitly a fundamental part of what's making Shinji and Asuka and even Rei in her own way loving miserable. I agree that piloting an Eva makes them miserable, but they're constantly asked to pilot these things because otherwise, a) people will die and b) their friends will die (this is not a false choice, as far as anyone knows). Shinji has run away and come back specifically for his friends....except for this last time, because it feels like the show has just thrown in the towel on him doing anything other than decide if it's better to have people or not. Milkfred E. Moore posted:It isn't just Kaworu. He's merely the capstone. Shinji begins spiraling down toward his EoE mindset as far back as when Unit 01 maims Touji. While killing Kaworu drives Shinji pretty low, it's the act that drives Shinji into catatonia and inaction is jacking off over Asuka's comatose body. I would have to think that he's already gone over some kind of edge to decide to jack off over her comatose body in the first place, right? edit: Schwarzwald posted:The implication of the "gosh, if sparks just happened to randomly land on your head then of course you'd brush them off" speech (around ep 4 I think but I can't double check atm) is that NERV/SEELE/the people in charge provoked the Angels into attacking. And given that the Angel attacks just so happen after NERV got the first couple Eva units operable as Angel countermeasures (just in time to save the day after conventional forces failed) the provocation seems, if not deliberate, then at least anticipated. Thanks, assumed there might be something like this in the show. Jay-V fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 04:26
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Jay-V posted:I meant "start" as in "the writers started to make her feel guilty about sex at around episode 20." Its not that Eva is sex-negative, like most characters though Misato just wishes she had a more emotionally fulfilling life.
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Aug 5, 2019 04:32
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I sincerely wonder if anyone that thinks Eva's message is "people with depression are unreliable" actually ever experienced depression while being under pressure because you "have to get over it".
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Aug 5, 2019 04:35
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Dias posted:I sincerely wonder if anyone that thinks Eva's message is "people with depression are unreliable" actually ever experienced depression while being under pressure because you "have to get over it". Maybe; it's possible to internalize toxic attitudes, even at your own expense. I don't know how it is in Japan, but America has terrible attitudes about depression and about mental illness in general.
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Aug 5, 2019 05:06
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NikkolasKing posted:Honest question then: how do you stop the Angels? I understand the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe but if the out-of-universe message is Evas are bad and the in-universe message is they are the only thing keeping everyone alive, I don't really know what the show wants me to think. you can't really engage in hypotheticals in fiction, especially with something as vague as nge, but even if humanity's only hope really is for the children to get in the evas and kill every angel, it would have been infinitely better for said children if the people in charge weren't purposely keeping them ignorant and powerless so they could be more pliant chess pieces in a obscure battle over whose version of the apocalypse gets brought to fruition Jay-V posted:Like, Misato also inherited the consequences of the Second Impact. And she starts off as a well-realized character, intelligent and strong-willed with plenty of flaws and insecurities...but somewhere along the line, the show draws a connection between Kaji and her father. And she starts feeling guilty about having sex. And now she can't seem to support Shinji without offering sex. And her last words to Shinji were about sex. And she's ashamed during instrumentality about her having sex. i mean before misato is even introduced in person we see a photograph she sent to a teenager in which she leaves a note drawing attention to her cleavage. i can understand a feminist critique of misato as a character, but it feels a little strange to say that the beginning bit were she keeps coming on to vulnerable teenager in her care is cool and good character writing, but the reveal that her motivations are self destructive somehow undermines her character
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Aug 5, 2019 05:44
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the theme of depression not just being something you rise up and overcome because of your duty to other people in your life isn't something that i really picked up on until rebuild 3.0, but I've found it really relevant in my life. i have people in my life who grapple with severe depression and in some cases substance abuse. i've had this real visceral sense of frustration at times that my love and support didn't seem to be curing them, and my need for reciprocity on some level was just never being met. even though i could mentally tell myself that these were things beyond their control, emotionally it's hard to accept, i think especially because that's not how it's portrayed in a lot of media. i've worked through a lot of this, and the people in my life have also made big strides in getting to good and stable places, but it's also an active and ongoing process so i really understand people who get frustrated with eoe and it's lack of a big moment of catharsis that fixes the characters, but i also respect anno for refusing to provide that moment. and in the end shinji doesn't kill asuka. they're both still alive and anyone else can come back if they have the will. there's no guarantee of the outcomes, but there is still a possibility if people continue to work at it
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Aug 5, 2019 05:59
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NikkolasKing posted:Honest question then: how do you stop the Angels? I understand the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe but if the out-of-universe message is Evas are bad and the in-universe message is they are the only thing keeping everyone alive, I don't really know what the show wants me to think. Beyond that, think back to how cold and unempathetic the adults are to the children throughout the show and movie. How frequently Ritsuko reduces the current problems at hand into preserving the Evangelion hardware irrespective of the pilots' well being, how frequently even Misato emotionally manipulates Shinji and frames his actions and situations in such a way that he feels forced to pilot outside of his own will. There is surely a path to solving the problems presented with even a modicum of empathy and not shirking one's responsibilities towards those who are in your charge. Kids like Shinji and Asuka need therapy or at least a therapeutic approach and virtually the only time this is truly brought up in the story is Fuyutsuki talking about Misato in the episode 21 flashback. "A different kind of care", indeed.
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Aug 5, 2019 11:19
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We do also see NERV sabotage a potential alternative means of fighting the angels in episode 7. Ultimately they specifically need Shinji and 01 for their plan.
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Aug 5, 2019 11:39
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Dias posted:I sincerely wonder if anyone that thinks Eva's message is "people with depression are unreliable" actually ever experienced depression while being under pressure because you "have to get over it". I think a lot of the talk about Shinji having to stop being depressed for the sake of an arc misses what his depression does to others. There's something heartbreaking and very real about the scene in EoE where Misato starts dragging him by the arm through the parking lot. Like, the world is ending, she's about to die, she knows this, and she still has to use her last minutes on Earth to take care of someone to damaged to be anything but dead weight. Being frustrated with Shinji is an invitation to empathize with Misato (who then immediately fucks up and traumatizes Shinji further). Let us English fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 12:39
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Anyway I generally take from "piloting the Evas" to be more of a representation of things in life that we convince ourselves of as necessary, either through introspection or external factors from those around us or society at large, even if it comes at the expense of our well-being. A job or work that puts food on the table but makes you miserable; something that would clearly be unhealthy to tie to your self-worth. Or more directly in the case of Evangelion's production, Gainax's mindset at the time for creating it in the first place. I forget who said it (might have been Kazuya Tsurumaki but I can't seem to find the interview), but they talked about how bad things got towards the end of Eva and how they "wanted to put themselves into it as much as possible as a means to vent their frustrations".
Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 12:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:We do also see NERV sabotage a potential alternative means of fighting the angels in episode 7. Ultimately they specifically need Shinji and 01 for their plan.
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Aug 5, 2019 14:29
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The waypoint podcast hatefest in the 25/26/eoe episode also sucks because austin shares an incredibly personal, heartfelt story about suicidal thoughts and how you never just "get over it" and how even now, well over a decade past when he first thought about killing himself, he still struggles with continuing on with life and rob pretty much disregards that and sticks to his Shinji Is Depression thing anyways
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Aug 5, 2019 14:33
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N2 mines don't produce AT fields but one stopped Sachiel in its tracks. You don't need the field but it helps.
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Aug 5, 2019 14:34
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Captain Invictus posted:Jet Alone wouldn't have worked anyways because it couldn't produce an AT Field, right? So angels would clown all over it, it was a sitting duck from the word go. You say that, but it does raise the question of why NERV sabotaged it rather than letting it fail on its own merits, given that letting military weaponry fail in order to demonstrate that Evas are necessary is their standard MO.
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Aug 5, 2019 14:36
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Finished EoE in my rewatch last night. Absolutely great film, it's unarguably a happy ending for me. The Asuka vs Eva Series fight is so hosed up and I hate it and it's good. The playground scene is so haunting and sad. But favorite moment of the whole thing is when Shinji asks "Is it okay for me to be here?" and receives only a long silence in return. To which he just unleashes another horrific scream. i love it, it do be like that i'll watch the rebuilds.....later. Darth Walrus posted:You say that, but it does raise the question of why NERV sabotaged it rather than letting it fail on its own merits, given that letting military weaponry fail in order to demonstrate that Evas are necessary is their standard MO. Nate RFB posted:Anyway I generally take from "piloting the Evas" to be more of a representation of things in life that we convince ourselves of as necessary, either through introspection or external factors from those around us or society at large, even if it comes at the expense of our well-being. A job or work that puts food on the table but makes you miserable; something that would clearly be unhealthy to tie to your self-worth. Or more directly in the case of Evangelion's production, Gainax's mindset at the time for creating it in the first place. I forget who said it (might have been Kazuya Tsurumaki but I can't seem to find the interview), but they talked about how bad things got towards the end of Eva and how they "wanted to put themselves into it as much as possible as a means to vent their frustrations". There's a line in Episode 26 i totally forgot that goes "If you keep clinging to the EVA, the EVA will become you." So much of Shinji's and Asuka hang-up is that they can't see anything else in this world for themselves but being EVA pilots. They tie their self-worth directly to it because it's the only time they get praised, and when the EVA stops working for Asuka or Shinji realizes that he only brings pain with it, they are left feeling completely isolated. It takes Shinji literally being showed a world where EVA's don't exist for him to realize "Oh! I could literally be anything in the universe. There are infinite possibilities for my life that would make it worth living as long as I can try to explore them"
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Aug 5, 2019 15:46
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Captain Invictus posted:Jet Alone wouldn't have worked anyways because it couldn't produce an AT Field, right? So angels would clown all over it, it was a sitting duck from the word go. If I remember right there is discussion of working to generate artificial AT fields. Sabotaging the platform to carry them probably derailed that effort too. Which was probably the bigger threat to NERV.
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Aug 5, 2019 18:33
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The guy just boasts about how it's a matter of time, but obviously there's no way they'd figure it out because they don't have access to Evangelions or Lillith or whatever.
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Aug 5, 2019 18:40
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SHISHKABOB posted:The guy just boasts about how it's a matter of time, but obviously there's no way they'd figure it out because they don't have access to Evangelions or Lillith or whatever. I mean, we don't know that, precisely because NERV sabotaged them because they didn't want to risk Jet Alone intefering with their plans.
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Aug 5, 2019 19:11
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I watched episodes 7 + 8 in a row yesterday and the thing that kinda surprised me right away is that when I heard the Jet Alone lead guy's voice, I immediately went into fanboy mode. "It's Chibodee!  ".
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Aug 5, 2019 19:17
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Been lurking this thread for a while and definitely had some FEELINGS after finishing Waypoint's discussion of NGE and where I think they were insightful and on point and were I think they were incredibly off. I ended up making a big twitter thread to address a lot of the issues they specifically had with 25/26 and EoE and I'm curious about y'alls thoughts. https://twitter.com/roobots/status/1157334820223160320?s=20
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Aug 5, 2019 20:26
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Thread was a great read! Seemed like it was very cathartic to work through; if nothing else I like that Evangelion is still a show that people can have very personal reads on that evolve with time, both in good and bad ways. Re: the Kiss, people really I think just give Misato way too much credit in general as an overall "heroic" character. She has a litany of issues that she internalizes (most of which are, yes, sexual in nature) that she blames herself for and this arrests her ability to help others. The kiss is her final true mistake, a continuation of her failure at the end of 24 and solidifying Shinji's final collapse at the moment he needed help the most. And the tragedy is that I don't know if I can blame her, because in a moderately objective sense given what was happening at the time you see why she makes the choices that she does and why she hopes it is what can get him across the finish line. But in the end she is still an Evangelion Adult and just because she has better intentions than the rest it does not make her free of the dysfunction that plagues others like Gendo and Ritsuko. Remember the line about her becoming convinced that Shinji is afraid of women in the TV series? This is the culmination of that read by her of Shinji. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Aug 5, 2019 |
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Aug 5, 2019 20:57
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I think it's pretty clear from the context and tone of the Jet Alone episode that it was never going to work and just get everyone killed if NERV hadn't put a stop to it during the test. The people behind the project come off like smug dipshits who think "big robot" is sufficient to fight the Angels and the whole project is only a threat because the Japanese government was desperately looking for something to put money into that wasn't NERV. You can say "well we don't know they couldn't eventually make AT Fields", I guess, but what the show presents to us is a bunch of people in over their heads, just like the military dudes from the first episode.
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Aug 5, 2019 21:03
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The uncertainty itself is the point. The project probably isn't a meaningful competitor to SEELE, but they sabotage it just in case. There's no trust on either side and SEELE is both the world's best chance of survival and a bunch of petty, self-interested backbiters.
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Aug 5, 2019 21:06
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