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Relevant Tangent posted:There's an Iron Man in the Blackstone Fortress game and they seem cool. I'm pretty sure it's a well to do imperial robot, friend.
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Sep 16, 2019 09:39
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"BEEP BOOP DOES NOT COMPUTE! I AM A NORMAL MACHINE SPIRIT!" I love that robot so much, he's great fun to play when you work out that the name of the game is objectives and not kills, but then when you've done that and are running for the space elevator all the bonus action dice are available to just BRRRRRRRTTTTTTT all the things  Hot Dog Day #82 posted:Yeah that was the glorious “the Butlerian jihad but with a worse name” period of human history
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Sep 16, 2019 12:49
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As opposed to the 10,000 years of eternal hellwars, which is the Golden Age of Mankind, as the 
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Sep 16, 2019 12:57
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Arquinsiel posted:Nah, something older which has apparently also been refuted. It's all good. The bullshit flies fast and thick with the Voynich manuscript.
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Sep 16, 2019 13:31
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It's actually Arhiman's collection of The Voynich Hotel manga, which is actually something worth preserving.
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Sep 16, 2019 15:27
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arnt machine spirits already AI or thats at least the implication, its just we culturally forgot they were AI.
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Sep 16, 2019 22:03
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Machine spirits are low grade artificial intelligences based off of animal brains rather than sentient AI, with the prevailing theory that the animalistic tendencies make them safer than AI with human levels of cognition. This has the downside when an animal based AI is put into something the size of a Titan it has enough computing power to overwhelm a driver.
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Sep 16, 2019 22:10
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Dapper_Swindler posted:arnt machine spirits already AI or thats at least the implication, its just we culturally forgot they were AI. Machine spirits started off as a cult's way of explaining the minor quirks and differences between different machines that SHOULD be the same. Its evolved over time to being actual AI in machines though.
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Sep 16, 2019 22:16
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Could be the other way around either. Started out with the low-grade AI in titans, Land Raiders and the like being referred to as "Machine Spirits" and then one day Johannus Guardsman asks the local cogboy "so does the Leman Russ have a Machine Spirit?" and it just spiralled down to "... does my Lasgun have a Machine Spirit?" and cogboy was all "UGH, YES! Everything has a machine spirit! Stop bothering me!" and now it's just accepted doctrine.
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Sep 17, 2019 00:12
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It could just be Machine Spirit refers to its ability to do a simple task. So a strong machine spirit is able to handle a lot of tasks.
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Sep 17, 2019 02:20
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Nah, the Cult Mechanicus are all about the cargo-cult technology "wisdom", such as the "three ritual taps" to improve monitor signal. I'm sure if you checked everything you'd find that in one of the books a techpriest inserts a data storage device into a cogitator the wrong way up twice, with it only going in correctly the third time when he speaks the correct incantation.
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Sep 17, 2019 02:59
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One of the Ciaphas Cain novels mentions him attempting the ritual to fix an auspix, he quickly says the prayers, and kicks it in the same place the techpriests kick it for the "ritual". As far as I know, the "machine spirits as AI" are all newer concepts, weren't the old depictions of Titans the pilots being borderline senile/insane from the system inputs, and not the machine itself being an AI?
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Sep 17, 2019 03:48
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I’m pretty sure Guardsman Hawke beats down on some missile controls to help the machine spirit along.
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Sep 17, 2019 04:17
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It's actually brilliant because even today there's a bunch of people that understand how things work, and then even more people who use those things but don't know how things work. So for example, if you were having trouble with your computer getting slow, you could see if there is a memory leak, run task manager and see if there are a bunch of things running that you don't need, whatever. But when your grandma calls you about her computer slowing down or freezing, you're not going to cover all that stuff, you're just going to say "reboot it" or whatever. And then when someone ask your grandma to how to fix their computer, cause she did it, she'll just repeat "reboot it" even though that might not necessarily be the right solution. It basically becomes a mantra, and it works because it may help and if it doesn't, well, you just didn't appease the machine spirit as well as you should. Saves the computer touchers from explaining everything every time, but still helps the laymen get through some of the problems they are encountering without too much trouble. Add a couple thousand years, and you could easily have a religion out of that. I'll confess to uttering a prayer under my breath for the machine spirit when I'm rebooting something that crashed and, despite not doing anything after previous attempts to reboot it failed, having it work. I can't really explain that, but it costs me nothing to try and it's worked....a few times I've tried it.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:04
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Ardent Communist posted:It's actually brilliant because even today there's a bunch of people that understand how things work, and then even more people who use those things but don't know how things work. So for example, if you were having trouble with your computer getting slow, you could see if there is a memory leak, run task manager and see if there are a bunch of things running that you don't need, whatever. But when your grandma calls you about her computer slowing down or freezing, you're not going to cover all that stuff, you're just going to say "reboot it" or whatever. And then when someone ask your grandma to how to fix their computer, cause she did it, she'll just repeat "reboot it" even though that might not necessarily be the right solution. It basically becomes a mantra, and it works because it may help and if it doesn't, well, you just didn't appease the machine spirit as well as you should. Saves the computer touchers from explaining everything every time, but still helps the laymen get through some of the problems they are encountering without too much trouble. I think we’ve all begged and pleaded with out shitbox cars to please start just this one time - it’s winter and it’s cold out there for crying out loud! Or at least I know I have :/ Hot Dog Day #82 fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 05:14
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Yeah lots of stuff probably does not have actual machine spirit AIs. But no one really knows how most things work, and largely just believe the Admech about it.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:25
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The other thing about Titan machine spirits is that their pilots are mentally linked to them, with the implication that the link goes both ways.
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Sep 17, 2019 09:41
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Biplane posted:I’m pretty sure Guardsman Hawke beats down on some missile controls to help the machine spirit along. 
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Sep 17, 2019 11:33
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All machines have a spirit, but some also have rudimentary AI that's described as an aspect of its spirit because AI is Very Bad.
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Sep 17, 2019 12:10
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Machine Spirits are just Grimdark IoT.
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Sep 17, 2019 12:50
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Imagine a lot of advanced poo poo the Mechanicus build without understanding the actual tech is actually sentient in some way, they just can’t communicate with it. So you’ve got capital ship systems that are functionally sentient machines but the humans interfacing with it through cybernetics can’t talk to it, just give it hard coded commands. A lot of these ‘machine spirits’ would be functionally insane with no way to interact with the world around them.
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Sep 17, 2019 12:55
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Demiurge4 posted:Imagine a lot of advanced poo poo the Mechanicus build without understanding the actual tech is actually sentient in some way, they just can’t communicate with it. So you’ve got capital ship systems that are functionally sentient machines but the humans interfacing with it through cybernetics can’t talk to it, just give it hard coded commands. A lot of these ‘machine spirits’ would be functionally insane with no way to interact with the world around them. What if Chinese Room but also I Have No Mouth. 
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Sep 17, 2019 13:02
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Schadenboner posted:What if Chinese Room but also I Have No Mouth. I've always thought of the Titan interfaces as a Chinese room.
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Sep 17, 2019 13:14
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So the way the timeline works is like this: Today Event Horizon Canticle for Leibowitz (first part, Fallout* is parallel to this) Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman Canticle for Leibowitz (the second part with the monks flying off) Dune** (Firefly is happening parallel to this in a different part of the galaxy) 30k 40k *: Not FO76 because it's poo poo. **: Only Frank's books because other Dune books do not exist, with the exception of the Dune Encyclopedia which is real and strong and my friend. Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 13:17
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It's only Dune up to the Butterlain Jihad, then it's 30k with a mix of book Dune.
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Sep 17, 2019 17:24
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SardonicTyrant posted:It's only Dune up to the Butterlain Jihad, then it's 30k with a mix of book Dune. Nah, it's a bit of the galaxy where they forgot where Earth was and didn't have any local aliens. Then The Scattering happens during which time the post-(Dune) Imperium humans find other humans, and become part of the Pre-Unity/Pre-Crusade Era. There still might be several thousand years in there. We have 15000ish years to fill? 
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Sep 17, 2019 17:52
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Except the unnamed human diaspora is the result of rapid technological advancement from the dark age of technology.
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Sep 17, 2019 18:07
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There a whole lot of The Culture in there before the Butlarian Jih— war with the Men of Iron.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:00
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Galvanik posted:Why does the inquisition care at this point? Isn't the big secret that daemons actually exist out at this point what with the whole Gates of Hell opening up and rending the Galaxy in twain? People have already touched on general inconsistencies in 40k lore but I don't see the Inquisition giving up on keeping the existence of demons a secret and trying to keep the fact that some of the Emperor's own sons fell to Chaos a secret, as logically inconsistent. Such a revelation has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than the existence of demons in general I think. One of the post-DI books (Carrion Throne I think) had someone seeing a mural in the Imperial Palace and going "wait didn't the Emperor only have nine sons  " and getting a "DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THAT" in response.
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Sep 21, 2019 14:02
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I could see keeping the Traitor Primarchs a secret from the general population, and just saying that "some Legions of space marines turned against their brothers, so just an FYI, pour as much firepower as you can into the tall guys in power armor". Its one thing to say that some of the soldiers turned evil, another to say that half of the sons of the Emperor turned evil. If that word got out and widespread, then that could cause widespread distrust of the God-Emperor. "If half of his sons turned evil, who's to say he isn't evil" and all of that.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:05
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Pyrolocutus posted:People have already touched on general inconsistencies in 40k lore but I don't see the Inquisition giving up on keeping the existence of demons a secret and trying to keep the fact that some of the Emperor's own sons fell to Chaos a secret, as logically inconsistent. Such a revelation has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than the existence of demons in general I think. One of the post-DI books (Carrion Throne I think) had someone seeing a mural in the Imperial Palace and going "wait didn't the Emperor only have nine sons I think in that instance it's even an inquisitor who had no idea about the heresy. The next 40k book I read after that had some random guardsman casually namedropping Horus and other stuff like it was common knowledge so the inconsistency can be wild sometimes.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:25
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Was the Guardsman Cadian by any chance? They tend to know what's up, given that they've spent ten thousand plus years fighting the daemonic anus of the galaxy.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:29
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I thought Horus turning evil was widely known. I know enough people have been named Warmaster and immediately go "Uuuuhhhh... I promise I WON'T turn evil?" that I figured Horus was well-known as falling, and was more akin to Lucifer being well-known as turning against God, but the other Primarches were either memory-holed or "Oh, that Primarch? He died in battle. Against who? Uh... Horus?"
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Sep 21, 2019 16:42
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I think the cat is out of the bag with the whole traitor primarch thing what with Guilliman telling anyone in ear shot how much his brother Mort is an rear end in a top hat. Magnus on Luna they can cover up but probably not the giant Nurgle army dunking on the greater part of Ultramar.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:47
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Imperial citizens know about Horus and the traitor primarchs they just don't know that they were primarchs. They are taught about them as the nine greater demons of hell or something like that. The HH being almost like the ministorium's creation myth of the imperium. Similarly, the ministorium teachs about demons, but in very broad terms. Most citizens see them as people in our time do. Even most christians today don't believe in demons as real physical beings, more as allegories. It's seeing the physical truth of chaos and/or knowing that when you die your soul will be ripped apart in the warp that gets you killed. Seeing chaos in front of you will break a lot of men's minds and even if it doesn't the PTSD tends to be so extreme you have a much higher likelihood of falling to chaos later. Even if you don't you won't be able to stop thinking and dreaming about it and that gives chaos power. That is why you get killed for seeing the real truth of it but the ministorium preaching about demons in broad allegorical terms is allowed. It's the difference in hearing about satan tempting you at church service and getting home and seeing him eat and rape your family. This excerpt shows it from a high lord level: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9k6oxc/book_excerptwatchers_of_the_throne_the_emperors/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share In other news, the Cawl book is out and it has a ton of interesting lore so far. It has flashbacks to what Cawl was actually doing in the last ten thousand years and even views from Felix (the Primaris smurf Tetrarch) waking up ever so often to get experimented on as he became Primaris. I am not far enough in to know if the book is good, but so far it is worth getting just from a cool lore perspective and I am only 20% in.
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Sep 21, 2019 17:26
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What Cawl book?
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Sep 21, 2019 17:40
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Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work. Just out today and is a multi protaganist work split between tetrarch felix and belisarius himself, their histories and hints of the future. It takes place after plague war the book but before the end of the plague wars and details felix and cawl visiting the dead world sotha of the emperors scythes chapter. You get an interesting insight into how dying chapters view the primaris reinforcements but also one thing i really like about guy haley ive noticed is hes very fond of writing characters full of doubts and fears, even space marines. Im also early on but ill say it is a good book. Belisarius is a very fun character and the book has the feek of a sciebtific expedition or episode of star trek, very different vibe from other 40k books ive read. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 19:35
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Sharkopath posted:
Agreed. Honestly, everybody who visits this thread should get Rites of Passage (the new Navigator book) and The Great Work. Both are non-traditional 40k books that explore areas of the lore that have not been previously explored and both feature awesome protaganists who refuse to conform to typical 40k era Imperial expectations. Lady Chetta, the main character of Rites of Passage, immediately became one of my all time favorite 40k characters, and Cawl is looking the same with what I have read of The Great Work so far.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:04
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Based on a thread listing all the new lore in the Cawl I read earlier today it looks pretty interesting. Can't imagine how many angry shrieks it will elicit from the grogs. Also Gul Du Lac's Three Ursine Hypothesis is such a great little reference. 
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Sep 22, 2019 14:18
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The new cawl book was fun till they got to sotha then it kinda became objectively bad. Not really a spoiler below My favorite bit was it turns out cawl wants nothing to do with being fabricator general and he is a little worried that cawl inferior keeps demanding it of guiliman
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Sep 22, 2019 16:12
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