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Gnoman posted:"Egwinna" is one Latinized rendering of the Welsh "Ecgwynn", which was allegedly the name of an early king of England's mother. So that explains it. I'd just been going with the idea I read many years ago, that "Egwene al'Vere" was deliberately not far from "Guinevere."
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Nov 21, 2019 05:21
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It's probably both, Jordan loved him some referencing
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Nov 21, 2019 05:23
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Vavrek posted:I'm fond of a friend's reason for disliking her: "Egwene" is a terribly awkward name. Egbert Smith is nicknamed Eggie, as it happens! In the Shelly Laurenston pride books. (yes, I read silly romance novels shut up this is the wheel of time thread no judgement right)
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Nov 21, 2019 05:27
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Instead of comparing Egwene to a Goodkind character, it might have been better to compare her to a Sanderson one: Raoden, from Elantris. After being (Elantris spoilers) damned to the cursed city where everyone is suffering eternal unquenchable pain and starvation, he builds an alliance with speeches about how the damned are actually blessed because they no longer need to acquire food and can follow more cerebral pursuits, like architecture or cobbling. This focus on righteous labor and mental purpose fortifies his followers so that they can ignore their constant torment. Some people resist for a time, but they're either won over by Raoden's obvious correctness or they overthrow their irrational leaders and join him for the material benefits. After that Raoden studies how to be a wizard, figures out how to fix the magic system and lift the curse, drives off the invading foreign army, and marries a princess! I think my major objection in both cases is that the resolution seems to come about too cleanly. Something rings false about both narratives. The heroes and villains don't seem to act in the way that real people do so everything feels artificial. You know the Trolloc puppet isn't real because you can see the Cairhieners moving its arms and legs. I've seen the impeachment trial and the news about it- no matter how obviously wrong people are, it still takes a lot more effort to overcome their pride, corruption, ignorance, and self-interest, assuming they're even possible to overcome. I'm a bit disappointed that at least one time when things might have gotten messy- punishing Elaida, who was incompetent and magically corrupted but at least not literally serving the devil- she was carried off into the sky instead. It lets the good guys tie up the loose ends without getting their hands dirty, just like a villain falling off a cliff after trying to double-cross the hero helping them up. it does make it a bit more interesting when characters that have genuine flaws experience the ramifications of those flaws, like Gawyn running off to get cut down in a blaze of stupidity, inflicting severe mental damage on Egwene at a critical time. I have no idea if this is valid, but my hunch is that this is a feature of Sanderson's early writing. It seems like he creates the premise and the conclusion (Sanderson Avalanche) of the story for all of his characters and then builds a bridge of intermediate challenges between them, filling in character details and foreshadowing along the way. The result is usually a tightly plotted story with characters that have complex backstories, but it can sometimes come across as contrived or require contrivances to make work. You can really see the Trolloc limb poles. Raoden reads a story about a lady who contracted the curse from a magic spell gone wrong? That gives him info about why the magic system is broken and provides the motivation for her husband, the secondary antagonist. Primary antagonist needs to get the heroine out of the way for a while? Luckily he knows an alchemist who can make a magic potion that makes her look cursed, which also lets her meet Raoden and clear up her earlier misconceptions about him. Turns out the primary and secondary antagonist knew each other from a long time ago but never realized it, and the secondary antagonist gave the primary antagonist the motivation and heretofore-unmentioned-but-alluded-to-five-times magic powers he needed to oppose the evil empire and save the heroes once he turned good. The result is also sometimes that the intermediate events included to set up a future event don't seem to have any obvious inherent importance. Since there doesn't seem to be any reason that the reader would need to see that specific scene or know about a specific thing (even as set dressing), the reader can infer that the scene is only used to foreshadow later developments, move the story elements to where they'll need to be, or patch a potential plot hole. If the characters mention the pirate Dreok Crushthroat or the Jesker Mysteries it's because those thing will show up later with greater importance. If the characters find a secret path out of the city to a magic pool that euthanizes people, it's so that they can get out of the city later. If the main character gets clocked in the head and needs to be euthanized, it's so that his buddies will take him out of the city so he can be in the right place to miraculously recover and fix the magic system. By contrast, a book like Crossroads of Twilight seems to flow more naturally but has about two events in it that actually advance the plot.
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Nov 21, 2019 07:12
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Yeah Sanderson just isn’t a top shelf writer. He’s about on par with the folk that make a living writing Star Trek tie in novels and the like.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:09
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What I find entertaining about this topic is that if you said to him "My complaint about you is that you're not as good as Robert Jordan," I am sure he would emphatically agree.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:13
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Gnoman posted:"Egwinna" is one Latinized rendering of the Welsh "Ecgwynn", which was allegedly the name of an early king of England's mother. I always just thought it was a slightly modified form of Ygraine / Igraine. quote:In the Matter of Britain, Igraine (i:'ɡreɪn) is the mother of King Arthur. She is also known in Latin as Igerna, in Welsh as Eigr (Middle Welsh Eigyr), in French as Ygraine (Old French Ygerne or Igerne), in Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur as Ygrayne—often modernised as Igraine or Igreine—and in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival as Arnive. She becomes the wife of Uther Pendragon, but her first husband was Gorlois; her daughters by Gorlois are Elaine, Morgause and Morgan le Fay.
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Nov 21, 2019 10:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I always just thought it was a slightly modified form of Ygraine / Igraine. Surely that's about Tigraine and not Egwene though.
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Nov 21, 2019 11:44
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I feel it's also important to point out Egwene has some fairly serious PTSD from her time with the Seanchan
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Nov 21, 2019 12:23
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Is there a main character that doesn't have PTSD? I suppose we'd start quibbling about who is and isn't a main character. Characters without PTSD is probably a shorter list than those with PTSD, though. edit: Moiraine? She seemed pretty stable and un-traumatized, given everything.
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Nov 21, 2019 12:58
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I don't think Perrin does, he seemed to process his grief over his family pretty well. There's the Faile chase that's pretty tiresome but by the end of it, he seemed at peace overall. Compare this to Rand's box flashbacks, or Egwene's reaction to Seanchan and I think he comes out looking pretty balanced.
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Nov 21, 2019 13:06
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Elayne is literally too dumb and self involved to have PTSD.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I always just thought it was a slightly modified form of Ygraine / Igraine. The full name is the relevant reference, Egwene Al'Vere is definitely Guinevere. The first name might have some some additional tweaking to make it match something else, but that's secondary. Or he literally just added an E, a space, and an apostrophe.
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Nov 21, 2019 15:37
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The Lord Bude posted:Yeah Sanderson just isn’t a top shelf writer. He’s about on par with the folk that make a living writing Star Trek tie in novels and the like. To be fair, one of the interesting things about Sanderson is that he works hard and his writing noticeably improves over time. His latest books are much less workmanlike than early stuff like Elantris. I'd argue that even within the Wheel of Time he improved a lot in tone between Gathering Storm and Memory of Light, though just about everyone (including him) agrees that there are things like Mat's character that he never totally nailed.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:26
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Elayne is literally too dumb and self involved to have PTSD. She literally isn't
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Nov 21, 2019 18:37
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RC Cola posted:Yeah, its her job to do that. She knows all about listening to people who know better. Its why she obeyed the wise ones telling her to not be in the world of the dreams at the time she was teaching Nynaeve why to listen about not going in the world of dreams. Wait are you telling me a character in the Wheel of Time is a hypocrite
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Nov 22, 2019 02:07
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Donkey posted:
Sanderson is an outliner (on the extreme end of the outline-discovery writing spectrum) who discovery writes his characters. His strengths are plotting and world building. The vast majority of characters in very early works, like Elantris and Warbreaker, are less complex because it was early on. I am somewhat surprised that you're objecting to tight plotting though, particular when one of the most common WOT complaints is about the bloat and meandering in the books (see last few pages). 
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Nov 22, 2019 04:37
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I agree that Egwene is morally reprehensible but a good character in the sense that the story, especially the plot, greatly benefits from having her do what she does. A useful thing the show will have a chance to do is to flesh out one or more of the female characters (some combo of book Moiraine/Egwene/Nynaeve/Cadasune maybe, but mostly Egwene) into being a reborn badass in her own right. Latra Posae (went against Lews Therin in the Strike Against Shayol Ghul) or Eldrene (Queen of Manetheren) would be a good candidates as they both have canonical legends that are not super fleshed out with plenty of room for TV embellishments. Egwene suffered from being too much of a plot vehicle/super magical girl placeholder in the books, and she didn't have the cover of insanity/being super TV/reborn etc. that the boys did. She also had to deal with some of the other less-well-written female characters in one of the more poorly written dynamics. I don't think the show will improve on a lot of things, but this is definitely an area that's ripe for it.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:40
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I like bloat and meandering. My only exposure to Sanderson is the WoT books he wrote but they don't inspire me to read more of his work.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:40
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aparmenideanmonad posted:I agree that Egwene is morally reprehensible but a good character in the sense that the story, especially the plot, greatly benefits from having her do what she does. good old Great vs. Good
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Nov 22, 2019 04:44
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Brolander posted:good old Great vs. Good Yeah I mean, if anything, the real problem with the character is that I don't think she was supposed to be written as morally reprehensible in the way she turned out to be. Part of the unhelpful dissonance is that it seems accidental rather than intentional. She doesn't get the attention to development that Rand does to make her occasional trip into unempathetic sociopathy consistent with the rest of her actions, and she certainly doesn't seem wracked with the guilt that Rand feels (at least until he goes full Darth Rand). But it is good to have a female counterpart to him that actually gets poo poo done in a way that is not being obvious Deus Ex Machina/Lady-Gandalf/Moiraine.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:54
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I had forgotten that Lord of Chaos is when the prologues start spiraling out of control
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Nov 22, 2019 05:24
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Towards the end they became paid previews of 100 pages! The one with Talmanes and the Dragons loving ruled though.
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Nov 22, 2019 09:14
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Leng posted:I am somewhat surprised that you're objecting to tight plotting though, particular when one of the most common WOT complaints is about the bloat and meandering in the books (see last few pages). I wasn't actual objecting to the tight plotting part. My point was that even though his earlier writing style may have caused some problems it did still have benefits.
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Nov 22, 2019 14:46
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Atlas Hugged posted:Towards the end they became paid previews of 100 pages! Talmanes was a rare character Sanderson improved over RJ. Gonna be sad when the show doesn't cast him to keep the character # manageable.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:31
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An hour into the 9-hour Last Battle chapter. 
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Nov 22, 2019 17:47
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I'm doing a reread now and I really hit a wall when I started the Sanderson books. It's not just Mat that he doesn't do well. I found The Gathering Storm somewhat manageable, Towers of Midnight worse, and I can't even bring myself to read A Memory of Light. He did a good job of wrapping up the plot threads but everything just feels so clunky.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:53
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Ani posted:I'm doing a reread now and I really hit a wall when I started the Sanderson books. It's not just Mat that he doesn't do well. I found The Gathering Storm somewhat manageable, Towers of Midnight worse, and I can't even bring myself to read A Memory of Light. He did a good job of wrapping up the plot threads but everything just feels so clunky. If I remember correctly, they did say which parts were written before Sanderson took over. I think it was mostly the Mat stuff that Jordan had already written, but I could be wrong, so any weird inconsistencies I figured were just where Sanderson had to insert a chapter or two somewhere.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:32
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seaborgium posted:If I remember correctly, they did say which parts were written before Sanderson took over. I think it was mostly the Mat stuff that Jordan had already written, but I could be wrong, so any weird inconsistencies I figured were just where Sanderson had to insert a chapter or two somewhere. Basically Jordan wrote the good parts / high points and Sanderson connected them up. I think some of those parts, such as the Tower of Ghenji, were rougher drafts than others though. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 18:45
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I suppose I'm the only one who though Mat improved 1000% when Sanderson took over. I started to find him actually funny, instead of the narrative just telling me he was funny
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Nov 22, 2019 20:52
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No I'm right there with you. I did not enjoy him at all roughly until around when Talamanes pops up
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Nov 22, 2019 21:03
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Mat was always pretty funny, but definitely more so in the last 3 books. His swear word-laden letter to Elayne was loving hilarious. I think that was the first point in the series that actually made me laugh audibly.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:07
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Somehow I missed it, what exactly were the contents of Elayne's letter to Aviendha that made Aviendha hate Rand so much, in her special fourth-grade way?
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Nov 22, 2019 21:20
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:Mat was always pretty funny, but definitely more so in the last 3 books. His swear word-laden letter to Elayne was loving hilarious. I think that was the first point in the series that actually made me laugh audibly. I loved that letter, and not just because of the words. I was so goddamned tired of Elayne's everything that it was nice just to see someone try to pop her little bubble.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:21
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Mad Hamish posted:Somehow I missed it, what exactly were the contents of Elayne's letter to Aviendha that made Aviendha hate Rand so much, in her special fourth-grade way? Iirc it was the two letters to Rand, one of which was super full of love, then she was like poo poo I don't want to seem eager, sent a "but you suck" letter to him, and at one point described the first one to Aviendha, did not mention the second, and she took that to mean Rand wasn't being good to her because he didn't return the same feelings. Or something like that. It was really dumb.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:24
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ConfusedUs posted:I loved that letter, and not just because of the words. I was so goddamned tired of Elayne's everything that it was nice just to see someone try to pop her little bubble. Yeah that letter was funny.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:24
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Mat is more ha-ha funny in the later books but Sanderson never really grasps the layabout/oh goddammit I have to help those people tension that's the center of Mat's character. Mat is kind of like Galad in that he always does the right thing no matter the risk, but he always hates doing it and he always gets away with it, barely. Mat is the prince Hal fantasy -- sure I'm a lazy drunk but if it *really* counted and all the chips were down, I could do the right thing and pull it off and save the day. Sanderson never sells that part of the character in the way Jordan managed.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:36
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I always remember the two Aes Sedai pulling on Mat's arms in the Tarasin Palace and him interrupting with a "ladies, there's no need to fight, there's plenty of me to go around." I definitely found that chuckle worthy at the time, especially since one of them was that Illianer red ajah one.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:oh goddammit I have to help those people tension that's the center of Mat's character. Mat is kind of like Galad in that he always does the right thing no matter the risk What? 1/2 to 3/4 of the series he's trying to run away from any sort of responsibility. He's not "Ugh fine I'll do it", he's "Let's go in the opposite directio- OH GOD I DID A THING"
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Nov 22, 2019 21:55
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Sab669 posted:What? 1/2 to 3/4 of the series he's trying to run away from any sort of responsibility. He's not "Ugh fine I'll do it", he's "Let's go in the opposite directio- OH GOD I DID A THING" Right, exactly. He's trying to run away, but he never actually runs away. It's conflict between his inner narrative and conscious desires, and his actions that makes the character. The reluctant hero. There are a lot of great examples but the best is probably the battle of Cairhien. He's literally on a horse running away but if he leaves those men will get killed, ok, dammit, I'll help just this once (ends up personally winning battle). Other examples include: overhearing Gaebril, the Stone of Tear, etc. See, e.g., quote:The Amyrlin gave an exasperated sigh. “You remind me of my uncle Huan. No one could ever pin him down. He liked to gamble, too, and he’d much rather have fun than work. He died pulling children out of a burning house. He wouldn’t stop going back as long as there was one left inside. Are you like him, Mat? Will you be there when the flames are high?” That passage is the key to Mat's character. He's *thinking* "I want to be drunk and in trouble* but what he's *doing* is saving the day. Note that when Mat fights the Gholam he literally forces it back into a burning building. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 22:37
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