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NRVNQSR posted:That doesn't make the mechanics inherently terrible I 100% agree with everything in your post, with the caveat that Impermanent and myself were specifically talking about a lot of the charop guides you'll find on reddit and the like, which absolutely will start from the standpoint that those mechanics are inherently terrible, to the point that I've multiple times seen some variation of the sentence "other guides have proven that retaliate is terrible, so I don't need to repeat that here". Also I think a large percentage of people who hate retaliate played the Brute at some point and tried its level 1 top retaliates and were traumatized by how terrible those definitely are. Ranged retaliates, permanent retaliates, and retaliates that are attached to a move or other ability are extremely good tho. quote:Hopefully we can all agree that trap creation really is garbage, though. lol every time this discussion comes up it makes me think there MUST be something I'm missing about traps. I think the fact that 2 of the expansion classes (the Diviner and now the Deathwalker) have special tokens that get placed that are explicitly not treated like traps points to the idea that the designers realized that character placed traps are inherently weak without ways to force monsters to move into them.
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Dec 11, 2019 15:53
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Traps are pretty bad. But there definitely has to be some sort of trap based locked class coming. I hope non-loss summons are not the norm for all summons going forward. Otherwise that's going to retroactively diminish the GH classes. I really want all the GH content to stand equal to FH so I can spend weeks waffling which of 40 classes to play.
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Dec 11, 2019 15:57
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Yeah, I've certainly seen guides that will just skip analyzing cards simply because they have those mechanics. Often the cards really are bad, but the guides don't put in the effort to determine that or explain themselves to the reader. I want to believe there's a theoretical class that could make trap creation good - and I guess there might be, since we've not unlocked everyone yet - but I think such a class would need to be creating them in large numbers, at range, able to deliberately detonate them in a way that damages adjacent figures, and I'm basically just describing a Cragheart with different tokens.
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Dec 11, 2019 16:01
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Cocks Cable posted:I hope non-loss summons are not the norm for all summons going forward. The Necromancer and the Banner Spear have loss summons as well as non-loss ones. E: The other way to make traps good is give a lot of forced movement to a class, either with pushes and pulls or with the various repositioning / controlled movement abilities that exist.
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Dec 11, 2019 16:02
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I had at least one good trap card turn with my level 1 tinkerer
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Dec 11, 2019 16:08
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Tinkerer's Tools is almost a good trap because it's a bottom action on a class that can get away without moving around a lot (good range + good survivability), making it a decent throwaway action--most of the time it's a free obstacle and occasionally you can get a stun out of it. The top action is super situational, though, which makes it tough to fit into the Tinkerer's hand because you're desperate for repeatable non-loss top actions.
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Dec 11, 2019 16:24
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Doctor Spaceman posted:E: The other way to make traps good is give a lot of forced movement to a class, either with pushes and pulls or with the various repositioning / controlled movement abilities that exist. Yeah this would definitely help. Of the starting 6, the Tinkerer is the most trap capable but its just all so woefully under powered. His forced movement options are extremely limited to effectively make use of the already anemic trap effects he even has at level 1. A trap based class is going to need some of the following to potentially work: non-loss trap cards, set traps at range, pick-up and/or move traps, set multiple traps at a time, scaling trap damage, lots of forced movement options, disarm and/or collect traps for bonus (trap card recovery?), aoe trap effects, remote detonate traps, a plethora of pick-n-choose trap status effects in addition to damage.
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Dec 11, 2019 16:32
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Character-placed traps should be keyworded differently to avoid the problems with (a) flying enemies, and (b) monster AI avoiding them. Traps - placed by scenarios and monsters Wards or whatever - placed by characters
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Dec 11, 2019 16:41
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I think my good turn was a late initiative proximity mine followed by an early initiative hook gun for like 10 damage against a level 1 enemy
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Dec 11, 2019 16:43
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dwarf74 posted:Character-placed traps should be keyworded differently to avoid the problems with (a) flying enemies, and (b) monster AI avoiding them. AI manipulation is a big part of what makes traps fun, though. Traps are both ineffective and uninteresting if you look at them as "attacks, but with extra steps" instead of "obstacles, but with extra payoff opportunities." The problem is that they're usually balanced as if they're the former: if you compare most traps actions to Cragheart obstacle actions the Cragheart gets vastly more efficient placement of obstacles while also gaining immediate side benefits and retaining the ability to "trigger" them on enemies.
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Dec 11, 2019 16:57
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Death of Rats posted:I just retired Two Minis I'm gonna really miss my bear friend and unlocked Concentric Circles. Are these classes different enough that it warrants play immediately, or are they as similar as they first appear? They are fairly different: with two minis your bear was probably something of a party tank and damage dealer, while your character was passive and did little (or nothing). Circles needs to take a much more active role in trying to keep its summons alive. It's worth noting that a lot of people online think that circles is one of the weakest classest, but having played it from level 2 to level 9 I think that is underestimating its strengths. For instance it has one of the strongest summons in the game: the level 1 thornshooter. That card can easily deal something like 20-30 damage spread over many turns, if you make sure to keep it out of harms way. Basically all ranged summons are great for this class. Melee summons on the other hand are there to make one attack and then they will probably die, but that is often good enough at lower levels. It's a fun class to play if you're not completely sick of summons yet!
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Dec 11, 2019 21:34
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oh btw newer players, I can't remember if stamina potions have been nerfed in the newer editions of gloomhaven but they should all recover 1 less card than printed if the minor stamina potion says "recover 2 cards."
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Dec 11, 2019 21:48
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That's not an official change until the expansion releases, just a common house rule used since we know they will eventually be nerfed to that.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:51
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fair but imo it really ought to be what you use because the game is warped pretty badly without that change. also: gloomhaven helper will make your combats 5x faster. I also use gloomhaven campaign tracker for all of my campaign things + character sheets. And finally the https://dmungin.github.io/gloomhaven-scenario-tree-ng/ gloomhaven secnario tree for an easy to see track of what scenarios you've unlocked. the helper is in the OP but deserves a shout-out because wow its good. Impermanent fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 21:54
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Personally I'd rather houserule stamina potions by making them unrecoverable. Changing the number of recovered cards isn't necessarily a bad change but I feel like it punishes the casual use of them without doing enough to fix the abuses.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:12
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NRVNQSR posted:Personally I'd rather houserule stamina potions by making them unrecoverable. Changing the number of recovered cards isn't necessarily a bad change but I feel like it punishes the casual use of them without doing enough to fix the abuses. Sure but if you're trying to fix 3 spears that's only part of what needs to happen. Nerfing stamina potions is wise but there are so many very effective things that you can do with item recovery, including spammable summon items, 5 damage AOE lightning strikes with volatile bomb, and a potentially insane number of modifier flips with Catastrophic Bomb giving you a lot of potential for self-healing with Major Health Potion and damage output with Major Power Potion. Loss items in general need to be more unrecoverable than they are now, basically.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:24
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QuarkJets posted:Sure but if you're trying to fix 3 spears that's only part of what needs to happen. Nerfing stamina potions is wise but there are so many very effective things that you can do with item recovery, including spammable summon items, 5 damage AOE lightning strikes with volatile bomb, and a potentially insane number of modifier flips with Catastrophic Bomb giving you a lot of potential for self-healing with Major Health Potion and damage output with Major Power Potion. Agreed, very specifically the damage mod that recovers items should only work on spent items, not consumed. It just leads to insanity like using the same power potion on the same attack and other nonsense. I’m generally fine with a card that recovers consumed items even tho that’s potentially a can of worms, but the mod is just a weird and overpowered choice. NRVNQSR’s point about the stamina debuff is still accurate tho, it punishes some classes that could really use the versatility while not really addressing the classes that abuse it.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:35
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QuarkJets posted:Sure but if you're trying to fix 3 spears that's only part of what needs to happen. Nerfing stamina potions is wise but there are so many very effective things that you can do with item recovery, including spammable summon items, 5 damage AOE lightning strikes with volatile bomb, and a potentially insane number of modifier flips with Catastrophic Bomb giving you a lot of potential for self-healing with Major Health Potion and damage output with Major Power Potion. There are other ways to recover spent items and they all make stamina potions way too good. I think they're fine at 2/3 cards, personally, but they definitely need to be unrecoverable.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:40
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Zurai posted:There are other ways to recover spent items and they all make stamina potions way too good. I think they're fine at 2/3 cards, personally, but they definitely need to be unrecoverable. Yeah I agree on all points. You could reuse the same icon that unrecoverable loss cards use, even. In fact there are several items that should be completely unrecoverable, while others are totally fine
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Dec 12, 2019 00:17
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When I short or long rest, what happens with my currently active cards?
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Dec 12, 2019 02:56
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DarkAvenger211 posted:When I short or long rest, what happens with my currently active cards? If they aren't losses, you may choose to put them in your discard pile at any time and as such, you may pick them up when you short / long rest.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:01
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If they're both continuous and a loss, then they'll just stay out there and keep giving you their effect. If they're continuous but not a loss, you have two choices: - leave it out, so that you keep getting the effect without needing to spend a turn re-playing it - move it to your discard pile before you pick up your cards, so that you get it back into your hand Strategywise, what you'll often want to do is to pick it up when you'd otherwise have an odd number of cards in hand, so that you get an extra turn before needing to rest again.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:13
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Cinara posted:That's not an official change until the expansion releases, just a common house rule used since we know they will eventually be nerfed to that. Nope, it's in the FAQ. It's official. You don't have to play with the nerf but it is official. Circles: I've seen it played a couple different ways and the most effective playstyle was the one where the Summoner herself almost never attacked. It was all just summoning, positioning, and using the cards that gave summons extra turns. It was ridiculous and that was at level 7. Using the Summoner's attacks was sub-optimal although maybe it was more fun for that player to try to be more active. I've never played the class myself but if I ever do I'm absolutely spamming summons and playing puppetmaster.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:21
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Elephant Ambush posted:Nope, it's in the FAQ. It's official. You don't have to play with the nerf but it is official. FAQ posted:Item 013 So yea, it might be in the FAQ but it's also not actually in the game until the expansion releases, like I said. It's a completely optional change your group can make if you want to right now. The way it was worded in the post I responded to made it sounds like it was something you had to do cause he wasn't sure if new printings had it yet, I want to clear up that it wasn't the case.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:31
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Cinara posted:So yea, it might be in the FAQ but it's also not actually in the game until the expansion releases, like I said. It's a completely optional change your group can make if you want to right now. The way it was worded in the post I responded to made it sounds like it was something you had to do cause he wasn't sure if new printings had it yet, I want to clear up that it wasn't the case. The expansion being referred to is Forgotten Circles, which came out almost a year ago. Again, you don't have to play with the nerf but it's the rules now. My main group has been playing with it for a while and it's barely noticeable. We still don't exhaust very often and the potions still feel powerful.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:39
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Pretty sure it was talking about the big box expansion, ie Frosthaven.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:42
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Pretty sure it was talking about the big box expansion, ie Frosthaven. That makes no sense. The FAQ was written way before FC was released.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:44
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Yes, and if you notice, Forgotten Circles did not come with replacement Minor Stamina Potions. It DID come with replacement cards for other classes abilities that were changed to fit the new teleport wordings. Minor Stamina Potions are still officially unchanged until the big box expansion releases. Also the FAQ is updated often, that line was not there at the start, it was added when they decided on the potion nerf that would happen in Frosthaven(then unnamed).
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Dec 12, 2019 03:46
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Im house ruling it to recover three cards 
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Dec 12, 2019 03:49
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Control Volume posted:Im house ruling it to recover three cards lol Speaking of FC, my group started it and the first scenario is legit hard. We managed it first try but it was close. I'm playing the Diviner and I'm having a really good time with her. The story is a lot more in-depth than the base game and I'm really hype to see where it goes and what we learn.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:51
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Elephant Ambush posted:That makes no sense. The FAQ was written way before FC was released. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDlL1UdCTk&t=2006s
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Dec 12, 2019 04:15
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WELP Holdin' the L over here Even so, we're playing with it and they're still really good and you really don't need the RAW potions to steamroll most scenarios!
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Dec 12, 2019 04:22
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Control Volume posted:Im house ruling it to recover three cards Stop shitposting in the Bernie thread you stupid rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 12, 2019 06:31
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It's totally cool to play with the stamina potion nerf, even with the nerf they're still one of the best items in the game Invisibility cloak should be looked at, too. Probably it should be moved to a higher prosperity and replaced with something less powerful, like maybe at Prosperity 1 it could convey invisibility but with some downside like you also gain Immobilized
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Dec 12, 2019 06:46
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I'm sure all these nerfs are needed if you have a bunch of tryhard players but gently caress if our group did that we'd get crushed. Half our team doesn't really plan ahead past the turn we're currently on, and so just playing on normal difficulty is a struggle. If I didn't have the cloak early on to cheese doors open, they'd probably have abandoned the game before we unlocked anything.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:41
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We opened Envelope X last night, at long last. It's an augmented reality style thing right? It's gonna be a webpage I go to on cephalofair.com/Bxxxxxxx with 10 letters? And the first is B? I don't remember getting any more clues apart from an event that said something like "The Deep Ruins take shape" which I am guessing is related since it's in the same weird cipher - either being a letter we find there or the actual literal shape of the Deep Ruins being a letter.
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Dec 12, 2019 15:33
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dwarf74 posted:We opened Envelope X last night, at long last. Very minor spoilers: Yes, you have the gist of it. You'll need to keep an eye out for other clues to eventually piece everything together. A lot of people bounced off envelope X hard, and will tell you that it sucks, but there's a particular type of person/group that would enjoy it and it sounds like you're in that bucket. So don't let the naysayers put you off if it's something you're having fun with. The one very important thing to know about it is depending on which printing of the game you have, there's a typo in one of the puzzles. If you've found ten letters but it doesn't seem to make a word, feel free to look up some spoilers to see what the typo is.
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Dec 12, 2019 16:21
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dwarf74 posted:We opened Envelope X last night, at long last. Assuming those questions aren't rhetorical: You're right on all accounts, very observant, good job! Won't spoil anything else since you seem to be on the right track, just keep in mind it's kind of a sloppy puzzle at points, so if you feel you should have enough clues and are stuck or something doesn't make sense, there's no shame in googling stuff. Also, if you have a printing before the 3rd (I think?) there's a typo in one of the puzzles. It's the puzzle with 3 numbers in a row, so when you get that just google what it should be
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Dec 12, 2019 16:25
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OK we got 2nd printing so good to know. Thanks, goons.
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Dec 12, 2019 16:29
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Afriscipio posted:Two minis v. circles stoic665 posted:They are fairly different: with two minis your bear was probably something of a party tank and damage dealer, while your character was passive and did little (or nothing). Circles needs to take a much more active role in trying to keep its summons alive. It's worth noting that a lot of people online think that circles is one of the weakest classest, but having played it from level 2 to level 9 I think that is underestimating its strengths. For instance it has one of the strongest summons in the game: the level 1 thornshooter. That card can easily deal something like 20-30 damage spread over many turns, if you make sure to keep it out of harms way. Basically all ranged summons are great for this class. Melee summons on the other hand are there to make one attack and then they will probably die, but that is often good enough at lower levels. It's a fun class to play if you're not completely sick of summons yet! Elephant Ambush posted:Circles: I've seen it played a couple different ways and the most effective playstyle was the one where the Summoner herself almost never attacked. It was all just summoning, positioning, and using the cards that gave summons extra turns. It was ridiculous and that was at level 7. Using the Summoner's attacks was sub-optimal although maybe it was more fun for that player to try to be more active. I've never played the class myself but if I ever do I'm absolutely spamming summons and playing puppetmaster. Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. I think that between these messages and my friend wanting to play Circles once he's done with Sun, I might just Mindthief for a bit. Maybe see what his retirement unlock is and change over? Re. Two-Mini experience and character choice: I played the Beast Tyrant a couple of different ways over time - I did a bear tank/immediate bottom Concentrated Rage build for a while; but settled on an Ancient Ward/Concentrated Rage build with a Minor Stamina Potion to put out constant disarms (plus Tyranical Force at L7) which was kinda similar to an active Summoner build. (And I'm usually the one in charge of enemy AI; so I'm a bit sick of navigating stuff around the map.)
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Dec 12, 2019 18:10
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