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General Dog posted:The bad guys want Baby Yoda so he can Force Heal the charred corpse of Palpatine. Considering the last episode comes out post-Skywalker this is an insanely good guess.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:23
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Tenzarin posted:You bring up a good point! lol I dont think the main character needing assistance from others to beat the big bad counts towards the definition of a Mary Sue. I mean there are other reasons she can fall into that category but that isn't one.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:24
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Just Chamber posted:I mean she didnt? Her and Ben get loving wrecked and she literally is nearly dying and it takes the power of like 10 dead Jedi's to get her back on her feet. They basically collectively took out Palpatine. This did not happen in my showing of the film.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:24
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ImpAtom posted:Rey can still be tempted by power for good causes even if Palpatine isn't there. The desperation of being completely and totally outmatched and the search for more power to overcome the lack of balance could corrupt her easily. You don't need space wizard opera for an arc for her.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:24
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ruddiger posted:Now you know how CineD posters felt when TFA and TLJ were released. Heh
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Dec 20, 2019 23:25
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Rey is not a Mary Sue because only assholes call things Mary Sue if youtube is any indication.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:25
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You know, it's also against C3P0's programming to impersonate a deity but he was willing to do that for Luke and co. That he literally allowed the ST protagonists to kill him rather than translate an inscription for him really underlies how much he must have hated their guts. "Taking one last look... at my friends..." was absolutely withering sarcasm.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:26
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Davros1 posted:Heh I sense a story here
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Dec 20, 2019 23:26
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Beeez posted:What would Rey's arc have been if Palpatine wasn't involved at all? People say it'd be better, but there'd be no conflict at all for her without him, apparently people just wanted the ending to be about her killing Kylo because they've decided he represents everything they hate. But a story that's just about an irredeemable jerk being destroyed by a flawless hero doesn't seem interesting at all. Just have it be Palpatine's influence without literally resurrecting him to shoot beams of lightning at the sky. Rey is the product of a Palapatine science experiment. Kylo is being influenced by his Sith force ghost. They both battle their emotions and following the rigid codes laid down by Sith and Jedi and ultimately, fail. She kills him in a fit of rage a Jedi should not have, then heals him. Make his loss and resurrection more explicitly about his mother's forgiveness, he comes back as Ben. They both realize their previous path was unfollowable nonsense and found an order based of new humanist force users called Skywalkers. That's my fanfic, I hope you all enjoyed it.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:27
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Pollyanna posted:Rey is not a Mary Sue because only assholes call things Mary Sue if youtube is any indication. I believe you are making a hasty generalization there, pal. Also I'm glad you agree Rey is a mary sue.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:28
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Incredible that every last detail of TLJ is thrown into the bin. Luke even says "I was wrong" to exile himself and apparently it was not time for the Jedi to end, the Jedi just needed a better messiah figure.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:28
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There was a surprising amount of overt Lord of the Rings reference in here, between Threepio uttering the black speech of Mordor and Lando leading the charge to save the day as the sun comes up like Gandalf at Helm's Deep.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:Rey can still be tempted by power for good causes even if Palpatine isn't there. But didn't TLJ already demonstrate that she could overcome Kylo's temptations? That's all I mean. People talk about how different the conflict TLJ set up would be for a third movie, but it sounds like there'd be nothing thematically interesting or interesting from a character standpoint. The whole thrust of the movie would just be figuring out how to Rey in position to assassinate Kylo in such a way that the rest of the bad guys would just give up or something. I'm saying it less as a defense of RoS, and more to say that the entire trilogy had structural problems that would make it a struggle to feel like it validates it's own existence or adds to the "Skywalker Saga" in any meaningful way.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:30
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Skrill.exe posted:This did not happen in my showing of the film. Palpatine has the power of all the previous Sith inside of him as he keeps repeating over and over and destroys Rey and Kylo. Rey is then dying and the previous Jedi all lend her their strength and that is what allows her to defeat Palpatine, it's fairly clear that's what happens and it's why after she kills Palpatine she dies, because their strength leaves her and she would have died without it. They could have literally had a bunch of force ghosts behind Rey rushing like Aragorn and his ghost army to make this more clear for people I guess, but i would have vomited.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:30
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Rey is so powerful of a character the main villian has to use Rey to make himself stronger.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:31
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Prince Myshkin posted:Incredible that every last detail of TLJ is thrown into the bin. Luke even says "I was wrong" to exile himself and apparently it was not time for the Jedi to end, the Jedi just needed a better messiah figure. There's a lot of TLJ thrown out in this film but Luke admits he was wrong at the end of TLJ to Yoda also And yea that v
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Dec 20, 2019 23:33
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Prince Myshkin posted:Incredible that every last detail of TLJ is thrown into the bin. Luke even says "I was wrong" to exile himself and apparently it was not time for the Jedi to end, the Jedi just needed a better messiah figure. That happened in the ending of TLJ. It literally ends with him saying he won't be the last one and killing himself to make sure the new one escapes.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:33
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I don't mind Rey being powerful and adept from the get-go, but it is a problem that there was never once that she really had to eat poo poo. Never really took an L in battle, never had a plan go wrong and get dropped into a rancor pit, never had to hide in a trash compactor. She misjudged Kylo in TLJ, but even that mistake resulted in the death of the Supreme Leader, and she was ultimately vindicated about Kylo being redeemable too.
General Dog fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 23:34
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Beeez posted:What would Rey's arc have been if Palpatine wasn't involved at all? What the... Are you seriously suggesting that bringing back palpatine is only way you could see this trilogy concluding? Even though palpatine isn't mentioned in the first two films and Ian Mcdiarmid wasn't hired until four days ago?
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Dec 20, 2019 23:34
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Prince Myshkin posted:Incredible that every last detail of TLJ is thrown into the bin. Luke even says "I was wrong" to exile himself and apparently it was not time for the Jedi to end, the Jedi just needed a better messiah figure. JJ made literally no attempt to pick up the threads from it. It's awful.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:36
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Beeez posted:But didn't TLJ already demonstrate that she could overcome Kylo's temptations? That's all I mean. People talk about how different the conflict TLJ set up would be for a third movie, but it sounds like there'd be nothing thematically interesting or interesting from a character standpoint. The whole thrust of the movie would just be figuring out how to Rey in position to assassinate Kylo in such a way that the rest of the bad guys would just give up or something. I'm saying it less as a defense of RoS, and more to say that the entire trilogy had structural problems that would make it a struggle to feel like it validates it's own existence or adds to the "Skywalker Saga" in any meaningful way. Kylo doesn't have to tempt her. Luke was testing the bad side by taking weapons in places he shouldn't and stuff. Attempting to amass too much power corrupts in real life, and it's easy to do that in fantasy with fantastic power. As LOTR was mentioned earlier, you could use a One Ring analogy where attempting to use that power for good would still inevitably corrupt. It's just a little different in that there are wrong ways to go about gaining or using power, even in desperation as opposed to using a cursed object. Although you can introduce cursed objects in Star Wars too!
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Dec 20, 2019 23:38
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And that's one of the worst things about TLJ and one that people forget, Rian teased some good ideas then threw them out HIMSELF in the final act. Rey and Kylo teaming up? Nah. The Sith and the Jedi being left in the past and Rey becoming something in the middle? Nope. Luke believing the Jedi should end? He changed his mind.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:38
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Also can we talk about Rey being the first force using jedi with the abilities to revert time itself to heal people back from death?
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Dec 20, 2019 23:39
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No, I'm saying people say that TLJ set up an interesting 3rd film but I don't see how. There'd be no emotional conflict to any of it if Kylo was just a monster for Rey to slay. The first two movies were completely uninterested in delving into the possibility that she could be tempted away from good.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:39
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That was a secret of the darth plaguegus! Rey did it without even knowing about it! Anakin didn't even get that far!
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Dec 20, 2019 23:40
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Just Chamber posted:And that's one of the worst things about TLJ and one that people forget, Rian teased some good ideas then threw them out HIMSELF in the final act. Yeah, as much praise as the "let the past die" line gets, it really only ends up being relevant on a meta-textual level. In the universe of the movie, the line is put in the mouth of the bad guy and all of the good guys end up rejecting it. Like, what evidence is there at the end of Last Jedi that Rey/Leia/anyone is embracing that as an ethos? What would that even look like? General Dog fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 23:41
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Disney wants us to let star wars die.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:42
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Tenzarin posted:Also can we talk about Rey being the first force using jedi with the abilities to revert time itself to heal people back from death? Watch the Mandalorian. It’s better Star Wars if you grew up with the OT.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:43
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Baby yoda is an abomination, in my opinion.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:43
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Beeez posted:No, I'm saying people say that TLJ set up an interesting 3rd film but I don't see how. There'd be no emotional conflict to any of it if Kylo was just a monster for Rey to slay. The first two movies were completely uninterested in delving into the possibility that she could be tempted away from good. Kylo doesn't have to be a monster for Rey to slay in the 3rd film. You're still constraining it to a 1st trilogy structure. The first movie in the series, even, only had a big fleet scene because there was a superweapon. Outside of that, it was just a small group on the Falcon trying to get somewhere and happening to whoops run into Vader on the way.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:45
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Tenzarin posted:Baby yoda is an abomination, in my opinion. Mods???
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Dec 20, 2019 23:46
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How did palpatine make all those star destroyers? Who funded him? Was it like emperor secret loyalist? Then why didn't he just run the first movie group too? They had a death PLANET!
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Dec 20, 2019 23:47
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Tenzarin posted:Also can we talk about Rey being the first force using jedi with the abilities to revert time itself to heal people back from death? Baby Yoda did it first. Tenzarin posted:Baby yoda is an abomination, in my opinion. Your opinion is now invalid.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:47
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Tenzarin posted:How did palpatine make all those star destroyers? Who funded him? I would guess it was some dark project he started as a contingency during the Empire but who the gently caress knows.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:48
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So those are cloned star destroyers?
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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But that isn't what TLJ set up. TLJ ended on the notion that good guys from the first trilogy were being "reborn" and they'd continue to fight to free the galaxy. Kylo is the ruler of the galaxy.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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There really didn't need to be an emperor figure in this movie. Killing Snoke was the one of the best choices in TLJ but this movie undoes that by bringing back secret Palpatine out of nowhere. People complain about TLJ subverting expectations or whatever but if you watch it right after Force Awakens it flows amazingly well and you can tell Rian respected the film more. JJ hits hard retcon
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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why no cool darth vader force ghost for the finale and also why did j.j just have them be regular star destroyers and not super star destroyers
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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Tenzarin posted:Baby yoda is an abomination, in my opinion. 
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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teagone posted:Baby Yoda did it first. Yep. Beat her to it by a day and a half.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:49
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