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True.
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Jan 6, 2020 00:34
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Umm, so, what was the show missing from the books? Because that whole first episode came off very...badly. Were those townsfolk supposed to be hypnotized by the girl or something? That post I quoted.
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Jan 6, 2020 00:35
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stev posted:That post I quoted. Help can't get how the bar scene made it clear that they were Renfri's hired muscle. Also the town was angry since it was before he found Jaskier to run his PR campaign. etalian fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jan 6, 2020 |
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Jan 6, 2020 00:59
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Hmm. On one hand we have this unknown guy with swords who claims he killed dozen men in town square for a good reason. On other hand a respected the local Pornwizard and the village leader's daughter both accuse him for slaughtering the people in cold blood. Who do the villagers believe?
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Jan 6, 2020 01:42
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Yes, and the monster dies. An attempt to solve a problem without violence fails. This is only more proof that you cannot solve problems in Witcher world without violence. There is a very clear theme where the Witcher wishes the world is a better place. He desires peace and happiness and hugging and jump rope, but the narrative constantly replies with "There is no joy, only suffering. You're rounding up "not given an opportunity to try" to "tried and failed" to make things fit your narrative and it makes you look like you either didn't pay attention or are being deliberately disingenuous. The scene is even framed to NOT be flattering for the one who used violence.
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Jan 6, 2020 01:43
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Umm, so, what was the show missing from the books? Because that whole first episode came off very...badly. Were those townsfolk supposed to be hypnotized by the girl or something? For the Butcher of Blaviken parts of the episode, they got the general story down well in regards to characters and motivations. But they neglected to foreshadow or reference the Tridam Ultimatum ( https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Tridam_ultimatum ) which is the whole context of why Geralt runs in blazin' at the end. One small difference I noticed was that when Renfri (eclipse lady) is bleeding out, in the books she says "Hold me, Geralt", to which Geralt does nothing. A moment later when she actually dies, a dagger she was concealing falls out of her sleeve. A bit surprised they got rid of that detail, not like it would have broken the cgi budget. If you want to read the synopsis, it's only a few paragraphs: https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Butcher_of_Blaviken
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Jan 6, 2020 02:29
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Dienes posted:The scene is even framed to NOT be flattering for the one who used violence. The pilot episode allows shows the nuance in the Witcher stories that make them different than your standard fantasy storytelling by avoided clear-cut bad guys like orcs. Geralt gets sucked into a complicated situation in which he didn't get the whole story and does try to convince Renfri to consider alternatives.
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Jan 6, 2020 02:40
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Dienes posted:You're rounding up "not given an opportunity to try" to "tried and failed" to make things fit your narrative and it makes you look like you either didn't pay attention or are being deliberately disingenuous. After watching the scene again, I'm not actually sure whether one could consider Geralt's outcry as a genuine attempt to prevent violence, as he is only capable of speaking a single sentence before the knight kills the creature. So, I guess you kind of have a point? I think I've been fairly consistent on most of my themes though. I mean, yes, the scene clearly decries the knight's use of violence. I am not saying it doesn't. However, there are a thousand ways that this situation could have resolved, but for some god forsaken reason he decides to eat the monster and nobody else tries it. Like, not only is eating the giant an incredibly stupid idea, there is easily enough food to feed an entire camp yet somehow nobody else eats it. One dude picks up a piece, stares right at it, and tosses it away. It's not just stupid, it's cosmically stupid. And he suffers the cosmic justice of death, which, again, is inevitable because violence solves every problem. Including violence. Again, I am in no way arguing that the knight is portrayed as anything other than a villain. I cannot emphasize this enough. And, yes, the knights use of violence is clearly portrayed as negative. But when the knight dies, and THAT violence is very much portrayed as good. He did not have to die, this could have resolved with a redemption arc, or having all the followers lose faith in the hunt. In short, they find a monster, kill it, and this is framed as a bad idea. Then they find a dragon, and only Yennifer the serial date-rapist has learned anything from what just happened. Everyone else is just too stupid to draw any parallels. They are all disgusted by the knight, yet willingly follow him to commit the same crime again.
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Jan 6, 2020 02:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:After watching the scene again, I'm not actually sure whether one could consider Geralt's outcry as a genuine attempt to prevent violence, as he is only capable of speaking a single sentence before the knight kills the creature. So, I guess you kind of have a point? I think I've been fairly consistent on most of my themes though. The knight getting murdered seemed more of a 'you reap what you sow, being a violent rear end in a top hat causes others to be a violent rear end in a top hat to you.' It wasn't so much good as it was inevitable.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:00
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Nobody celebrates the lovely rear end in a top hat Knight being murdered even though they all think he's a vainglorious shitbird. There's not even a comment about how he deserved it or whatever. His murder is not portrayed as some balancing of the karmic scales. Regarding the Blaviken incident: one of the parts I really liked in the book that didn't translate into the show was that it turned out Stregobor didn't give any shits whatsoever about the village. When Renfri informed him of the hostage situation, his response was basically 'lol okay', which prompted Renfri to give up on the hostage strategy - not that she was above taking and murdering hostages, but not against someone who legitimately didn't care. Geralt's attempt to play the hero turned an aborted plan into a violent clusterfuck, and the situation was worse than if he hadn't intervened at all.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:07
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Voyager I posted:Nobody celebrates the lovely rear end in a top hat Knight being murdered even though they all think he's a vainglorious shitbird. There's not even a comment about how he deserved it or whatever. His murder is not portrayed as some balancing of the karmic scales. I mean it is specifically the bard who is disgusted by the death of the knight, and his job is to always be wrong, so... It's obvious I'm not convincing anyone of anything, so I'll just see myself out.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:21
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Maugrim posted:E: randomly finding a powerful artefact is the basis of so many stories. One good rule of fiction writing is that it's fine and good to use coincidence to get your characters into trouble, but not to get them out of it. Off-topic but I wish someone would explain this to every chase sequence that ends with the bad guy getting splattered by a ninja truck outta nowhere. Arglebargle III posted:The series obviously doesn't approve of Calanthe, who probably is the character who most values personal martial prowess. I noticed in my rewatch that when Calanthe is describing what she thinks Nilfgaard is doing to her people, "they are burning children alive" and whatnot, every time she says something it cuts to the soldiers just doing soldierly things. Brutal, violent soldierly things because mass melee combat is still horrible, but they don't appear to be going out of their way to inflict gratuitous pain and suffering beyond the bounds of their duty. In other words, she's expecting them to rape and pillage like an army of peasant footmen led by nobles would in taking their vengeance on a vanquished foe, but they're instead a professional line army securing a captured territory from further armed resistance.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:41
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Aside from the current debate Cahir seems to be a lot more hardcore than I remember from the books. It's been a while since my reading, admittedly, but something like slaughtering a room full of civilians to make sure none of them were the Doppleganger is pretty drastic compared to what I remember of his character, and I'm worried that it's going to make it harder for him to transition later in the story if he's starting out as a murderous zealout.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:52
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Two bath Geralt scenes in S1. Are you not entertained?
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Jan 6, 2020 04:18
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For a mon book reader, which person was Cahir and why are they considered hardcore compared to the books?
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Jan 6, 2020 04:23
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Voyager I posted:Aside from the current debate Cahir seems to be a lot more hardcore than I remember from the books. It's been a while since my reading, admittedly, but something like slaughtering a room full of civilians to make sure none of them were the Doppleganger is pretty drastic compared to what I remember of his character, and I'm worried that it's going to make it harder for him to transition later in the story if he's starting out as a murderous zealout. No, you're right and I think the show runner has dug a few holes in terms of how the plot beats can be course corrected later on.
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Jan 6, 2020 04:26
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:For a mon book reader, which person was Cahir and why are they considered hardcore compared to the books? The Nilfgardian with the winged helmet. He was the boogeyman in Ciri's dreams and the one who hired the doppler to track her down. He's being presented as far more brutal and ruthless than he was in the books.
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Jan 6, 2020 04:28
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Proteus Jones posted:The Nilfgardian with the winged helmet. He was the boogeyman in Ciri's dreams and the one who hired the doppler to track her down. He's being presented as far more brutal and ruthless than he was in the books. Oh word. That dude seems straight up evil and who I was expecting to be the big bad of next season or something after he beat the badass wizard with two swords.
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Jan 6, 2020 04:57
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McSpanky posted:In other words, she's expecting them to rape and pillage like an army of peasant footmen led by nobles would in taking their vengeance on a vanquished foe, but they're instead a professional line army securing a captured territory from further armed resistance. There is a chapter in the books (Time of Contempt?)told from the perspective of a nilfgaardian officer giving a briefing where it's stated nilfgaard stepping up their aggression compared to previous wars. He basically told them to go nuts burning poo poo, stealing poo poo, just try to keep the worst war crimes on the down low. They change it up because it's a rat race at that time between factions to find Ciri Voyager I posted:Aside from the current debate Cahir's backstory always been a badass in terms of his fighting capability. He came from a powerful political family, and as such grew up in military academies and is a career officer for Nilfgaard. His reaction in the inn was out of character. He can be ruthless, but he's also disciplined from his background. That being said, the context is important. At this point in the story the emperor has given him a critical task of getting ciri, which he achieved then lost when she escaped. The Empire has now basically told him to find her or it's his head. I think what we saw was more him cracking from desperation than his character being defined. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Jan 6, 2020 04:58
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Voyager I posted:Nobody celebrates the lovely rear end in a top hat Knight being murdered even though they all think he's a vainglorious shitbird. There's not even a comment about how he deserved it or whatever. His murder is not portrayed as some balancing of the karmic scales. I’m quoting this because it’s awesome and true. A lot of subtext is missing in the show, which works sometimes and sometimes not. Episode 1 missing the whole realization of the “Tridam Ultimatum” was a needless cut that could have given a lot more depth to that scene. Geralt acted to protect the townspeople in the market from violent deaths that they didn’t know was coming. And Geralt didn’t resort to violence first. He went to the alderman and told him Renfri’s plan and the alderman just shrugged and went “can’t arrest them until they do something”. She also had a letter protecting her from the nearby royalty, I forget who. But all of that is lost in the show. If Geralt pulls his sword, it’s to kill and only if there’s no other option. He doesn’t enjoy violence but it’s what he’s good at and what he has to fall back on. That said; and while The Witcher doesn’t celebrate violence, it is an action show based on a series of action novels. There gonna be action. If you don’t like The Witcher because there’s too much violence, it doesn’t mean it’s true. It only means the show isn’t for you.
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Jan 6, 2020 05:00
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Yeah in the books and no doubt the show it turns out Nilfgaard has nothing but Ciri's best interests in mind, as far as their conception of her best interests. They're trying to catch her to keep her safe and secure. So making Cahir so bloodthirsty is weird.
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Jan 6, 2020 05:05
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah in the books and no doubt the show it turns out Nilfgaard has nothing but Ciri's best interests in mind, as far as their conception of her best interests. They're trying to catch her to keep her safe and secure. So making Cahir so bloodthirsty is weird. That and to use her power against a cataclysm.
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Jan 6, 2020 05:07
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Noslo posted:Cahir's backstory always been a badass in terms of his fighting capability. He came from a powerful political family, and as such grew up in military academies and is a career officer for Nilfgaard. This would honestly work very well, if they go that route.
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Jan 6, 2020 05:45
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Christ reading the last few pages was tiring can we go back to arguing about whether Yennefer's hysterectomy was her choice or something Tissaia stole from her? At least that had some merit by discussing her character rather than reading this milquetoast SMG wannabe nonsense.
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Jan 6, 2020 06:24
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etalian posted:Two bath Geralt scenes in S1. No magic crabs though.
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Jan 6, 2020 06:26
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Noslo posted:Cahir
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Jan 6, 2020 06:34
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Also a small thing the show changes in the dragon episode, the dumb knight guy doesn't actually die in the books, but gets hosed up fighting the dragon.
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Jan 6, 2020 06:59
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Jack2142 posted:Also a small thing the show changes in the dragon episode, the dumb knight guy doesn't actually die in the books, but gets hosed up fighting the dragon. That knight, Eyck, hacking up Mac-and-Me was so over the top and hilarious. Show does a good job with humor.
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Jan 6, 2020 07:27
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Arcsquad12 posted:Christ reading the last few pages was tiring can we go back to arguing about whether Yennefer's hysterectomy was her choice or something Tissaia stole from her? At least that had some merit by discussing her character rather than reading this milquetoast SMG wannabe nonsense. SMG never comes across as whiny though, just smugly superior. Which is infinitely better
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Jan 6, 2020 08:23
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chaosapiant posted:A lot of subtext is missing in the show, which works sometimes and sometimes not. Episode 1 missing the whole realization of the “Tridam Ultimatum” was a needless cut that could have given a lot more depth to that scene. Geralt acted to protect the townspeople in the market from violent deaths that they didn’t know was coming. [...] As someone who hasn't read the books, this was my read on it: Geralt goes to the market because he knows something is going to go down, he doesn't know what, but Renfri isn't going to just leave. He has no real plan. He gets there and her mooks start talking about an ultimatum, he just stands there hoping to head things off if given the opportunity. The mook fires and everything goes to hell. Renfri turns up with Marilka, he tries to talk Renfri into letting her go and leaving. Everything goes to hell. He leaves, unsure if he did the right thing by trying to intervene. He's not a hero - he doesn't live in a world where people can be ethically pure and still effective. He's just some guy who tried to stick to killing monsters, who hasn't always done good things, but sometimes he's dumb enough to listen to the little voice in his head telling him to help people even though experience and other people have taught him he's best off staying out of it. Geralt knowing Renfri's plan and trying to get the law involved and rescue the townsfolk is just too much good-guy for the grumpy mess we're introduced to.
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Jan 6, 2020 08:48
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Noslo posted:[...] the eclipse lady and her bandits were about to round up the town market and start killing hostages to force the Wizard's hand so he would leave his tower for a duel. In the show, forget the books/short stories, is it ever clear that Renfri is actually going to threaten the townspeople? I don't feel like the show actually made this explicit... It's really just Geralt cutting through her henchmen to protect Stregabor / defend himself, right?
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Jan 6, 2020 11:16
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She says she'll kill everyone there until stroganoff comes down while holding a blade to the girl's throat, that seems to be about as clear as it gets.
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Jan 6, 2020 11:34
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Yeah, I really meant before-hand...during their talk in the woods. e: I guess Geralt wasn't expecting her dudes to be there and just gets pulled into the fight?
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Jan 6, 2020 11:36
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:But it being character driven here is the problem! It goes against Geralt's principles. Not just principles in the book, principles as he states repeatedly in the episode. I haven't rewatched it yet so I'm fuzzy on it, but what are you referring to here? From memory it seemed quite straight forward - Geralt was not able to sleep, he had obviously heard through some means about a Djinn being trapped in that lake - free the Djinn, wish for sleep. A simple idea, it's just that it all goes to poo poo for him. I guess I just usually prefer something that comes from a decision rather than "Protagonist X was walking along when he stumbled across a magic lamp" type stories. Where it could happen to anyone in the whole wide world but it just so happens for our hero.
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Jan 6, 2020 12:00
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He repeatedly tells other characters in the same episode to not mess with the Djinn on both practical and moral grounds. Djinn do not like granting wishes so will screw you over. Djinn do not like granting wishes because it is slavery. He says that! Geralt's character is about respecting intelligent creatures and not killing them if it can be avoided. He tells other characters in the show that the reason Djinn are descructive is because they are imprisoned and people use them for wishes. He tells other characters in the show to not use wishes.
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Jan 6, 2020 12:50
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Basically go watch the Wishmaster movies if you want to see how lovely Djinns can be, or how lovely movies about Djinns can be. Fun for the whole family!
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Jan 6, 2020 14:04
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I think it was kinda refreshing. Usually if a genie/djinn is in a movie they screw you over because they just are assholes but In that episode it was made clear that anyone would act out because they are treated like poo poo.
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Jan 6, 2020 14:30
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Arcsquad12 posted:Christ reading the last few pages was tiring can we go back to arguing about whether Yennefer's hysterectomy was her choice or something Tissaia stole from her? At least that had some merit by discussing her character rather than reading this milquetoast SMG wannabe nonsense. I've read lots of tviv threads and seen lots of goons terminally miss a point or watch a completely different show from everyone else, but this one was a new high mark for sheer think headed-ness.
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Jan 6, 2020 14:47
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:He repeatedly tells other characters in the same episode to not mess with the Djinn on both practical and moral grounds. Djinn do not like granting wishes so will screw you over. Djinn do not like granting wishes because it is slavery. He says that! See I took that as Geralt is aware of all of that and he knew how to handle it/he had a plan (Jaskier just hosed it up) and is quick to warn others - just as he would be quick to warn others not to go hunt other types of monsters. Whether his plan involved getting sleep and then wishing the Djinn freedom not only for itself but before others could find it and take advantage/gently caress things up, who knows. Either way, i prefer it over "he randomly finds it".
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Jan 6, 2020 16:36
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MoaM posted:In the show, forget the books/short stories, is it ever clear that Renfri is actually going to threaten the townspeople? I don't feel like the show actually made this explicit... As someone else mentioned, she does say she'll kill however many it takes while holding a knife to the girl's throat, but this is kind of moot because Geralt has already decided to act and had just killed her bandits at that point. MoaM posted:It's really just Geralt cutting through her henchmen to protect Stregabor / defend himself, right? Adding to that, Geralt disliked Stregabor before the story even started because of what he did to the eclipse children. Plus some other past beef they mention that I don't recall the details of. This comes to a climax when Stregabor wants to autopsy Renfri right away and Geralt threatens to kill him if he touches her.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:13
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