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Stairmaster posted:If we take poes word seriously which the rest of the film apparently doesn't want us to The little skimmer is literally disintegrating around him. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ignoring orders is not a problem with assessment. The problem with assessment comes from not taking a moment to even try to assess why they've been tracked through hyperspace.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:41
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Everyone posted:Well, sometimes prank phone calls really are enough. The objective at the beginning of the movie was to get the Resistance off-planet and away. Poe's "phone call" did that. Mission accomplished. So, Leia told him to break off the bluff attack and bring his still intact squadron back to the fleet so they could all haul rear end. He refused and then chopped his bombers into cat meat so they could take out one First Order capital ship to no good purpose. The film presented it as a special snowflake ship that posed a unique threat. It was a lot bigger than the regular ships, and we see that it mounts two enormous space penises, though they arent nearly as strong as Palpatine's much smaller space penises in the next film.
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Feb 21, 2020 17:19
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Everyone posted:Well, sometimes prank phone calls really are enough. The objective at the beginning of the movie was to get the Resistance off-planet and away. Poe's "phone call" did that. Mission accomplished. So, Leia told him to break off the bluff attack and bring his still intact squadron back to the fleet so they could all haul rear end. He refused and then chopped his bombers into cat meat so they could take out one First Order capital ship to no good purpose. Yeah, and this is where I point out that the “fleet-killer” fires roughly once every five minutes. It’s about to fire again, and Leia is sitting there waiting for all the incredibly slow bombers to come back (and dock in the hangar?). Leia’s actions are going to kill everyone. Also, the prank phone call plan was Poe’s idea. Also, Leia authorized sending the slow bombers on the first place as a backup because she didn’t fully trust Poe’s plan. Also, according to TLJ-logic, Leia should have left Poe to die in the same way Poe left Luke to die: “He's doing this for a reason. He's stalling so we can escape.” Why is Leia sticking around? PeterWeller posted:The problem with assessment comes from not taking a moment to even try to assess why they've been tracked through hyperspace. They don’t actually know they’re being tracked through hyperspace. A bunch of large ships just show up, but that could be for any reason. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Feb 21, 2020 |
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Feb 21, 2020 18:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They don’t actually know they’re being tracked through hyperspace. A bunch of large ships just show up, but that could be for any reason. And Poe does not pause to even try and consider what that reason could be. He immediately orders another jump without attempting to assess the situation.
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Feb 21, 2020 18:45
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PeterWeller posted:And Poe does not pause to even try and consider what that reason could be. He immediately orders another jump without attempting to assess the situation. Poe does assess the situation. He sees that they've jumped into dangerous area, checks if they are capable of another jump, and then calls for the jump. Since hyperspace tracking is theoretically impossible, a second jump should work fine. Jumping in this situation is apparently even standard procedure, because Poe isn't high enough in rank to actually order a jump. He's just reminding the crew of what they supposed to be doing. Like, "hurry up before we die." Leia then interrupts this procedure, insisting that they are being tracked. But there's actually very little evidence of this. Snoke didn't follow them from the planet. These are all new ships. And then, for the rest of the film, it's just assumed that hyperspace tracking is real because Leia said so. We're never actually shown that it's real; Hux just makes a vague comment about string.
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Feb 21, 2020 19:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Poe does assess the situation. He sees that they've jumped into dangerous area, checks if they are capable of another jump, and then calls for the jump. Since hyperspace tracking is theoretically impossible, a second jump should work fine. They haven't jumped into a dangerous area. They've jumped into empty space and are there long enough for Poe to have a chat with a recovered Finn. They're chugging along in empty space when the FO ships show up. Then without considering how or why the FO ships just showed up exactly where they are in the middle of empty space, Poe orders another jump. There's a great deal of evidence they're being tracked because they hyperspace jumped into the middle of empty space and shortly afterwards an entire FO fleet including their mothership just jumps in right on top of them. There's not a lot of evidence that the FO are using some new trick technology. Everyone is rather quick to buy Leia's explanation that is has to be hyperspace tracking and not just a mole.
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Feb 21, 2020 19:37
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The film presented it as a special snowflake ship that posed a unique threat. It was a lot bigger than the regular ships, and we see that it mounts two enormous space penises, though they arent nearly as strong as Palpatine's much smaller space penises in the next film. It's a "unique threat" to people on the loving ground. It's a siege ship. The bit in Empire when the Rebels put up shield generators so the Imperials have to slog it out with them on the ground? This is a ship designed to punch through those shields and basically orbital bombard the target into dust. It's great at launching heavy ordnance at stationary targets. It sucks at launching that ordnance at targets that can move. Like space ships. So it kind of sucks in a space battle. Which is one reason it got its rear end handed to it in a space battle. Basically one the Resistance is mobile in space, the threat of the dreadnought is considerably reduced. Which is why Leia called for Poe to bug out.
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Feb 21, 2020 21:04
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They specifically called it a fleet killer, in the movie.
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Feb 21, 2020 21:09
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They are targeting the fleet
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Feb 21, 2020 21:10
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PeterWeller posted:They haven't jumped into a dangerous area. They've jumped into empty space and are there long enough for Poe to have a chat with a recovered Finn. They're chugging along in empty space when the FO ships show up. Then without considering how or why the FO ships just showed up exactly where they are in the middle of empty space, Poe orders another jump. If the baddies show up, that makes it a dangerous area by default. The question is why the baddies show up - and, in that case, maybe someone just spotted them. The previous film established that the First order has really good scanners, and sympathizers acting as informants everywhere: Han: "If we can find [the Millenium Falcon] on our scanners, the First Order's not far behind." FN:"There's no chance we haven't been recognized already. I bet you the First Order is on their way right now." People really don't have any trouble tracking ships in The Force Awakens: Han: "It's the Guavian Death Gang -- they must've tracked us from Nantoon." Hux: "We have their location. We tracked their reconnaissance ship to the Ileenium system." Normal scanning and tracking have, after all, existed for a very long time: Imperial Guy: "Lord Vader, our ships have completed their scan of the area and found nothing. If the Millennium Falcon went into lightspeed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now." Vader: "Alert all commands. Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory." Given the myriad ways that a fleeing ship can be located, Leia does not have enough information to conclude that hyperspace tracking exists. You can actually watch TLJ from the perspective that there is no such thing as hyperspace tracking, because the Resistance characters are simply paranoid, and absolutely nothing in the film contradicts that interpretation. If anything, the film makes more sense that way. ____________________ Let's get really concrete about what went wrong with the evacuation. Leia finds out that the First Order has located their secret base half an hour before the end of TFA: Leia: "The First Order - they're charging the weapon again now. Our system is the next target." Of course, in "real time", the whole preparation for (and attack on) Starkiller takes way longer than just half an hour. Why didn't Leia start evacuating immediately? It's only through sheer luck that the baddies didn't send the fleet-killer sooner. Then, it's only through sheer luck that Captain Candy was an idiot and chose to blow up the Resistance base rather than the fleet. Leia's evacuation of the base was a complete debacle. It was hosed from the beginning because of bad leadership.
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Feb 21, 2020 21:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The question is why the baddies show up Yes! And the point is Poe doesn't bother to ask that question before ordering a hyperspace jump that will use the last of their resources. The answer doesn't actually matter. Leia's hyperspace tracking answer being a poorly developed and credulously accepted plot contrivance to motivate the trip to Canto Bight doesn't actually matter. What matters is that Poe doesn't even seek an answer. E: And you certainly can read the film as though hyperspace tracking doesn't exist, but this just makes Poe look even worse as an assessor of situations. He goes with the first theory he hears, and sends a couple of cut ups on a hastily organized long shot mission to take care of it. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Feb 21, 2020 |
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Feb 21, 2020 22:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ignoring orders is not a problem with assessment.
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Feb 21, 2020 22:17
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There is a non-zero chance that the new season of Clone Wars will have a Palpatine romance subplot.
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Feb 21, 2020 23:07
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The thing that confuses me about the opening of TLJ is that, ok Poe disobeys Leia and continues on with his bombing plan. Cool. But why doesn't Leia just overrule him and tell all the bombers to turn around? Did Poe flicking the switch in his X-Wing cut off all communication for the rebels, it wasn't just him hanging up on Leia? He hung up for everyone? Seems to be a pretty big design flaw imo. And it doesn't seem like the bombers would have enough time to make it back to the fleet even if Poe obeyed Leia, slow-rear end pieces of flimsy cardboard that they are. That is probably an unintended outcome of them cutting up this opening battle. Rian Johnson said in the audio commentary that originally the first shot from the crawl would be panning down to Finn waking up. By changing things around they may have made it so nothing in this scene makes sense like it may have done originally.
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Feb 21, 2020 23:26
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PeterWeller posted:Yes! And the point is Poe doesn't bother to ask that question before ordering a hyperspace jump that will use the last of their resources. Check the scene again: Poe: Do it. We have to get out of here. Leia: Wait. They tracked us through lightspeed. [...] FN:If we jump to lightspeed... they'll just find us again, and we'll be out of fuel. They've got us. Poe: Not yet, they don't. Permission to jump in an X-wing and blow something up? Leia: Permission granted. Admiral, spin us around! If Poe’s narrative arc is to learn that he was wrong about recommending a jump to lightspeed, that arc is over in about ten seconds. Poe instantaneously accepts Leia’s claims and, without protest, volunteers to die for her. And Leia approves. There is zero protest. He doesn’t question her assertions at all. But this is not even a narrative. It’s a brief expository dialogue scene. All this confusion between plot and narrative is why we’re in this mess. The narrative is not about Poe failing to assess things. Timeless Appeal posted:No, you're shifting goal posts. Poe doesn't take moments to assess why his boss is telling him something, taking a pause to read a weird situation, and listen to his new boss. In the end, Leia deems him ready to be a leader when he actually does take a moment to assess what Luke is doing. That's the arc. And you can be critical of the arc itself, which this thread has already done, but you were originally trying to claim that there is no arc and claiming any sense of an arc is just retroactively created by Leia smiling. You were incorrect. Luke isn’t Poe’s boss, and Poe constantly assesses what (for example) Holdo is doing. That’s why fans are often annoyed with him: Poe should not have assessed Holdo’s competence. TLJ is a mess, so we get these bizarre claims like “it’s about the importance of assessing... things.” Huh? What? And yes, the plot is genuinely nonsense: Snoke: The Resistance must be destroyed before they get to Skywalker. Hux: We have their location. We tracked their reconnaissance ship to the Ileenium system. Snoke: Good. Then we will crush them once and for all. Hux: Shall I prepare the weapon? Snoke: No. That thing takes like twelve hours to fully charge, and we would lose the element of surprise. Send in the Fleet Killers. We have a bunch of these Fleet Killers lying around, and they’re specifically designed to blow up Resistance fleets & bases. Once the Fleet Killers come out of hyperspace and charge up their cannons, the Resistance leadership will be dead in around five minutes - with no chance to evacuate. Kylo Ren: How about they charge the cannons before leaving hyperspace? Snoke: ... Kylo, you’re a genius. See, Hux? This is why he gets a cape and you don’t. Kylo Ren: You’d better start beefing up defenses around Starkiller’s big, obvious weak spot. Knowing Leia, she’s probably sending every single fighter she has. But, luckily for us, that’ll leave her base completely undefended.
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Feb 22, 2020 00:21
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TLJ Defenders - if Poe's plan was to just make a prank phone call because that's Good Enough, why was Poe allowed to sortie every single strategic bomber they had or why did someone else (Leia?) sortie them? Where does the cut opening scene and bit from the novel where Poe goes to tell Leia his opening plan but she tells him she doesn't want to hear it and he should just do it fit into Bad Poe/Good Leia?
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Feb 22, 2020 00:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:And yes, the plot is genuinely nonsense:
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Feb 22, 2020 01:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Check the scene again: The dialog you quote confirms my point. Immediately prior, he asks, "can we jump to light speed?" and when Connix confirms they have fuel for just one jump, Poe orders that jump before considering how they were tracked and whether they can be tracked again. Yes, it's an issue that everyone buys Leia's explanation without question, and like I said, Poe not questioning her assessment is actually more evidence that he's not pausing to consider things. Poe's narrative arc is clearly not to learn that he was wrong about recommending a jump to lightspeed. You're right that this is not a narrative. It's a beat in the narrative, and part of that narrative is Poe becoming a more thoughtful leader. In this beat, we see again that Poe jumps to action without consideration. Horizon Burning posted:TLJ Defenders - if Poe's plan was to just make a prank phone call because that's Good Enough, why was Poe allowed to sortie every single strategic bomber they had or why did someone else (Leia?) sortie them? Poe is allowed to sortie the bombers because he is an officer. He gets demoted because of his poor decision to do so. The cut scene doesn't have to fit in. It was cut. And "Bad Poe/Good Leia" isn't the argument.
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Feb 22, 2020 02:02
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There’s no way around it: the sequels are very stupid and bad. I just got back from Disney World and the Star Wars Land is more fun than anything in the films. The characters from the ST have the right amount of depth to be suitable for a theme park attraction, which was probably what Disney was ultimately most concerned with and why the movies are so empty.
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Feb 22, 2020 02:18
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I mean Leia's explanation is "they've tracked us through lightspeed" and even if the technology to do that is new, tracking ships with regular trackers works through hyperspace- Leia herself has been on at least one ship that was tracked that way before. So I don't think people buying "they've tracked us" is an issue, it would just make more sense for them to assume there's a spy on the ship or something
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Feb 22, 2020 02:23
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PeterWeller posted:. It's a beat in the narrative, and part of that narrative is Poe becoming a more thoughtful leader. In this beat, we see again that Poe jumps to action without consideration. So the film is not about assessment at all; Poe is making judgements constantly, based on the information available to him. “But he reaches conclusions quickly!” So what? What you actually mean is that you disagree with Poe’s decisions. But, break it down and Poe makes fairly sensible decisions. All the other Resistance leaders are horribly incompetent. Like, unless your point is that it’s ok to be incompetent as long as you take a really long time to think your stupid thoughts?
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Feb 22, 2020 02:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So the film is not about assessment at all; Poe is making judgements constantly, based on the information available to him. “But he reaches conclusions quickly!” So what? No one said the film was about assessment. You can scare quote something I didn't say, sure. But that's, of course, not what I'm saying. You said, "The question is why the baddies show up." Poe fails to ask that question and hastily orders a jump. Once again, he does not take even a moment to consider all the information available to him before giving an order. He'll do so again and again when he orders the ill conceived secret mission to Canto Bight and the mutiny. Then, after learning that Leia and Holdo's plan was sound and seeing his own ill conceived plan almost ruin it, he rather quickly begins to be more thoughtful and reconsiders his attack on the battering ram cannon and orders his forces to pull back. This all culminates in a scene where he literally says, "wait," and then you see him scrunch his face and think about what Luke is doing before giving an order. What I actually mean is that the film tells you that Poe's decisions are the wrong ones because they are the hasty ones made with little consideration that lead to dire consequences. Then the film tells you he learned his lesson and starts being more thoughtful in his decision making. I don't actually disagree with Poe's decisions at all. They lead to three of my favorite sequences in the movie. I love the Memphis-Belle-in-space bombing run. Canto Bight is glorious silliness with BB8 drunk on casino chips and a decoder ring. Luke's Force trick to buy them time to escape Crait is a synthesis of all the Force tricks he learned. And I don't think Leia and Holdo's plan is that incompetent. They jump within sublight distance of Crait. From this, I think it's fair to infer that they planned on holing up on Crait all along. Yes, you can interpret that Leia is talking out her rear end about hyperspace tracking, but in the context of the series, you're expected to take Leia at her word. And while I certainly respect that the film's narrative should stand on its own, it does explicitly in text announce itself as part of a series, and your own critique of the Resistance leaders' incompetence relies on reading it in that context. After discovering that they have been tracked and losing the remainder of their fighters in the ambush, Holdo devises a plan that is designed to both achieve that initial goal and shake off the trace by sneaking out the back door at the last minute while the Raddus runs decoy. The film tells you that this plan would have worked if not for the consequences of the ill-conceived Canto Bight mission.
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Feb 22, 2020 03:22
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An early indicator that Poe's learning his lesson(that snap judgements can save your life in a firefight but you can't rely on them if you want to lead people) is when the cruiser starts to power up to ram the bad guys, someone says Holdo is running away and he realizes what she's actually doing.
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Feb 22, 2020 03:42
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Leia and Holdo's plan to hide on Crait was so sound! It only relied on: - the first order not reigning (they do) - having allies who will come help (they don't) - luke spontaneously ending his exile (lucky them) - snoke being incapacitated so ren is in charge and can be distracted by luke's appearance (lucky^2) - someone who can lift rocks (t-t-triple luck) so this genius plan only relied on like half a dozen contrivances that neither Leia or Holdo could have possibly predicted or counted on, such as Luke being able to display a completely new Force ability why didn't the first order just call in another siege ship anyway Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Feb 22, 2020 |
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Feb 22, 2020 03:46
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like just do the rogue one thing of putting a star destroyer right above the Crait base because they've sealed themselves in and call in a dreadnaught and turn the resistance into a crater Kylo even says no prisoners. maybe he just really wanted to look Leia in the eyes as he stabbed her in the heart with his lightsaber??
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Feb 22, 2020 03:58
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My favorite part of their plan is that they have to sacrifice most of their ships so they can get to Crait to call for help. Meanwhile, Poe and Finn have no trouble calling up Maz and asking for help with their problem.
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Feb 22, 2020 04:00
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The original plan was to go to Crait and send a message to their allies, then when the First Order tracked them the new plan was to sneak to Crait and hope someone would respond to their message before the First Order ran down the cruiser and realised it was a decoy. Then when the First Order destroyed most of the shuttles and followed them down to the planet, the plan was
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Feb 22, 2020 04:05
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Makes you wonder why if the plan was to call for help, why not instead pack some people into the lightspeed capable escape pods and send them to these unseen allies in person to ask for help? The FO didn't seem to care about any pods that got away and didn't track them, as seen in Finn & Rose Go To The Casino! At least pack as many people as you can in the pods and send them to different points of the galaxy you know? Hang on, all the rebels capital ships were lightspeed capable and all presumably had one jump left in them, so why not jump in different directions and see which ones the FO follow. At the very least, each individual ship might have less FO ships following, rather than all of their might gathered in one place. Why am I gameplanning a movie two years old? What are we doing with our lives? I guess we're doing it because the movie didn't leave much else to talk about.
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Feb 22, 2020 04:28
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Horizon Burning posted:Leia and Holdo's plan to hide on Crait was so sound! It only relied on: Your first two points are really the same point, but they're fair. The rest only come into play because of Poe's rash decision to launch the Canto Bight mission. garycoleisgod posted:Makes you wonder why if the plan was to call for help, why not instead pack some people into the lightspeed capable escape pods and send them to these unseen allies in person to ask for help? The FO didn't seem to care about any pods that got away and didn't track them, as seen in Finn & Rose Go To The Casino! Yeah, the *mechanics* are a mess in light of how easy it is to shuttle to Canto Bight. These are all good critiques of Holdo's plan, but ultimately, the movie says that plans fails because DJ overhears Poe and Finn talking about it and sells that information to the First Order.
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Feb 22, 2020 04:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:TLJ is a mess, so we get these bizarre claims like “it’s about the importance of assessing... things.” Huh? What?: Dude is brash in the beginning and Leia frowns. Dude is not brash in the end and Leia smiles. poo poo isn't hard. You can barf up a bunch of details and futz about over people's diction, but that doesn't make anything you're saying particularly literate.
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Feb 22, 2020 05:04
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Poe is like "someone has to die so everyone else has a chance to get away. " And then Holdo is like "someone has to die so everyone else has a chance to get away." Then Luke is all "someone has to die so everyone else had a chance to get away." In the end the only thing they are arguing about is whose sacrifice will appease the blood god. If you want to construct it as an actual plot with character development and stuff, then you might have Poe decide to sacrifice people and it doesn't work. Then Leia is like "there's always another way. " She and Holdo have a secret plan that actually works. Poe learns his lesson and later in the movie Fin or Rey or someone is all "I'll hold them off as long as I can you guys go. Then Poe goes "No! There's another way!" and improvises another solution that saves everyone because he's become a leader. Looking at Rian Johnson's other work, my guess is that an early draft of the script had Poe call off the bombers in the initial encounter. Then that same First Order dreadnought is the ship that is tracking them. Basically having Holdo and Leia gently caress everything up and Poe has to learn on his own what the best thing to do is.
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Feb 22, 2020 05:46
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PeterWeller posted:No one said the film was about assessment. Aight, so now we’re at the point where we start to lose track of the discussion. I wrote: “the literal events of the plot fundamentally don’t make sense, so [to understand the story] you’re left to rely on how the characters feel about randomness. Leia is sad at the start and happy at the end, therefore Poe became a good commander.” The Poe character is the protagonist of the film, so I am referring to the basic narrative of the film. Someone replied that “there is a clear moment of growth where Poe actually assesses things and realizes that Luke is creating a distraction” - but Poe did not have a problem with assessing things in the plot. At the very start of the film, Poe assessed a situation and created a distraction. Presented with the dissonance between the narrative (where Leia feels that Poe has ‘grown’ and become a good leader) with the plot (where Poe doesn’t learn anything whatsoever), they attempt to bridge the gap with speculation that Poe has simply developed marginally better situational awareness. He must have improved in some way, otherwise why would Leia reward him? But, as already gone over in detail, Leia’s thought processes are all bizarre and distorted. She has no clear reason to demote Poe, and she consequently has no clear reason to change her mind and promote him. Characters in the films do things, and there are what look like consequences, but there is no causal relationship. To put a fine point on things: Poe, at the start of the film, would not have any trouble understanding that Luke was being a distraction. When Poe gets mad at Holdo, it’s also not because he can’t assess things, but because information about the dubious secret cloaking devices was withheld from him. So, as that guy eventually admitted: Timeless Appeal posted:Dude is brash in the beginning and Leia frowns. And that’s the story, even though ‘brashness’ actually works over 50% of the time, and Poe’s final action in the film is to lead everyone to a dead end. Your big point of contention is that, at the start of the film, Poe ‘brashly’ tried to... encourage his crewmates to follow standard procedure and retreat. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 22, 2020 |
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Feb 22, 2020 06:41
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I'm just swinging by here to post this because it reminded me of all of our droid personhood arguments:
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Feb 22, 2020 07:48
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TLJ would have made vastly more sense as a siege instead of a chase. Have the FO be bombarding their base shields and then say the Resistances radio doesn't have the range to call for help. It fixes the problem of shuttles being able to come and go at will by having Finn and Rose need to run the blockade to go to Canto. Hell have them get shot up a bit to drive home you can't get the slower transports and cruisers through. It also makes the Holdo/Poe conflict make more sense since it's Poe wanting to stay and fight like Captain Picard in First Contact and Holdo wanting to sneak people out which Poe finds cowardly or something.
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Feb 22, 2020 10:33
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Watching the pod race with my four-year-old son, it struck me how there's more variety and imagination to the aliens in that one sequence than the humanoid turds with mouths predominating in the sequels. Disney were so scared of anything seeming 'silly' that they flipped all the way over to the 'boring' end of the scale.
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Feb 22, 2020 11:24
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Payndz posted:Watching the pod race with my four-year-old son, it struck me how there's more variety and imagination to the aliens in that one sequence than the humanoid turds with mouths predominating in the sequels. Disney were so scared of anything seeming 'silly' that they flipped all the way over to the 'boring' end of the scale. I think the designer of the ST aliens must have had some deep psychosexual hangups. Every alien is a ballsack. Every alien has the texture of a ballsack, every alien is the color of a ballsack, every alien is the shape of a ballsack. Rey and co. are trapped in a world of scrotums.
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Feb 22, 2020 13:49
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They never beat ANH where Satan and the Wolfman are just chilling in a bar.
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Feb 22, 2020 14:01
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It's a shame the Fox acquisition came so late, they could have snuck a na'vi in one of the background shots
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Feb 22, 2020 14:26
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galagazombie posted:I think the designer of the ST aliens must have had some deep psychosexual hangups. Every alien is a ballsack. Every alien has the texture of a ballsack, every alien is the color of a ballsack, every alien is the shape of a ballsack. Rey and co. are trapped in a world of scrotums.
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Feb 22, 2020 14:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Your big point of contention is that, at the start of the film, Poe ‘brashly’ tried to... encourage his crewmates to follow standard procedure and retreat. Actually, the issue at the start of the film is he orders an attack where he should order a retreat.
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Feb 22, 2020 17:02
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