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Badger of Basra posted:The Spanish killed and enslaved a shitload of people including basically all the native people in the Caribbean what the gently caress is the conversation The Carribean isn't Mexico and at no point did I say that the Spanish weren't exploiting native populations?? Please stop strawmaning what I'm saying. It is completely absurd to say that Mexican cuisine is just as descended from native cuisines as American cuisine is. The two had completely different relationships with indigenous populations, which led to completely different relationships with indigenous culture and cuisine.
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Apr 2, 2020 22:09
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Stop being so loving aggro jesus christ
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Apr 2, 2020 22:16
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zoux posted:Stop being so loving aggro jesus christ Says the guy who just compared what I'm saying to Hernan Cortes
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Apr 2, 2020 22:20
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i say swears online posted:my libertarian friend is hosting a "social resistancing" bbq tomorrow Get in, shovel as much meat as you can into a bag, get out. As a libertarian, he shouldn't mind self-interested exploitation of a free resource.
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Apr 2, 2020 23:45
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SlothfulCobra posted:Get in, shovel as much meat as you can into a bag, get out. TINSTAAFLW/OROCV (there is no such thing as a free lunch without risk of coronavirus)
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Apr 2, 2020 23:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:Get in, shovel as much meat as you can into a bag, get out. Pretty much this, if he gets mad just recite the entire John Galt speech while loading up plates to take.
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Apr 3, 2020 00:01
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He said he's gonna open a bottle of Pappy so I may bring a to-go cup
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Apr 3, 2020 00:06
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Sampatrick posted:it depends on the sausage to ribs ratio I liked this double entendre
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Apr 3, 2020 00:07
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i say swears online posted:He said he's gonna open a bottle of Pappy so I may bring a to-go cup It's gonna be Weller 12 and you're gonna feel foolish and get sick
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Apr 3, 2020 01:03
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Sampatrick posted:The Carribean isn't Mexico and at no point did I say that the Spanish weren't exploiting native populations?? Please stop strawmaning what I'm saying. It is completely absurd to say that Mexican cuisine is just as descended from native cuisines as American cuisine is. The two had completely different relationships with indigenous populations, which led to completely different relationships with indigenous culture and cuisine. You should REALLY look up what the Spaniards did to the Aztecs. I know I said I'd let this go, but goddamn you are ignorant of the history of Mexico. It's also a silly idea to try and use a broad brush to paint the colonization of the US. What happened on the East Coast differs from what happened in the South, on the West Coast, in the Southwest, etc. There are people living in what is now Texas whose ancestors have been living here since before the United States was a nation. Anyway, that bbq sounds lame and you should definitely not go.
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Apr 3, 2020 01:11
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update on meeting: we mentioned that judge jenkins would probably not approve, and the zoom meeting invite was sent out almost immediately lmao
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Apr 3, 2020 01:17
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Kunabomber posted:update on meeting: we mentioned that judge jenkins would probably not approve, and the zoom meeting invite was sent out almost immediately lmao 
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Apr 3, 2020 01:27
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Captain Monkey posted:You should REALLY look up what the Spaniards did to the Aztecs. I know I said I'd let this go, but goddamn you are ignorant of the history of Mexico. It's also a silly idea to try and use a broad brush to paint the colonization of the US. What happened on the East Coast differs from what happened in the South, on the West Coast, in the Southwest, etc. There are people living in what is now Texas whose ancestors have been living here since before the United States was a nation. Yes, I am aware of how awful the Spanish were. They did horrific things; I'm not and never have been disputing that. I'm just saying that even if you look at records from the late 18th and early 19th century, the country was majority native, and that factor as well as the Mestizaje policies of the post revolutionary period are what have led to the sheer extent of indigenous cuisine within Mexican culture in general (this isn't to say that the Mestizaje policies were good, they were quite awful and in many ways a form of cultural genocide similar to the French policies designed around eliminating national minorities). I'm not aware of any places in the US that didn't engage in the genocidal settler colonialism that was American colonization. I know it happened in California, I know it happened in Comancheria, I know it happened to the Navajo. I honestly have no knowledge of any groups that weren't forced to reservations. There are also of course many natives that live in larger cities (in fact, most do), but that seems a little unrelated to me.
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Apr 3, 2020 01:47
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Honestly, the differences in colonization have a lot of reasons behind them not the least of which is that there were a lot more people in what is now Mexico than there were in the majority of the United States. That necessarily changes the way that those populations were interacted with by the colonizers. However, your original argument was that US food traditions don't have any indigenous origins. A lot of them do, in fact almost all of them do, even the most hoity-toity white people food now has new world and Native American influence in it. Like don't get me wrong, the history of the US is covered in blood. It's just difficult to try and take the moral high ground when you're defending colonialist Spain. To be honest, I'm not even really sure what you're arguing for anymore. The Spaniards didn't make reservations the same way the US did? The larger population of what is now Mexico meant that their genocides weren't as effective? You like Mexican food better?
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Apr 3, 2020 02:55
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The colonization of the US wasn't all genocidal start to finish either. There were long periods of coexistence. Earlier on in colonization there was even a major problems that Europeans had with colonists running off to join the natives. There was a significant amount of mixing between European and native populations, even if it's mostly downplayed these days, you can see some of it when you read about the First Families of Virginia. By the 19th century, a lot of native americans were even westernizing and adopting more european technologies and styles. That's a big part of why the trail of tears was such a tragedy, when Jackson forced all the natives to move out west, it came out of nowhere. In some ways, it's inaccurate to look at what happened to native americans in the US as a singular genocide, instead of a series of genocides born of varying policies from different officials as well as wars mired in strategic convenience. A lot of tribes got destroyed by europeans working in tandem with other natives in an alliance against old enemies. The main distinction with the spaniards is that they got most of their genocide against the natives done up front. They enslaved them to work in the mines, and when the few they left free they still ground down into peasants, and killed any who refused to convert. The treaties with the spaniards/descendants of spaniards were also broken, just like with the ones up in the US, and when they revolted to keep their land, there were also massacres, but the main difference was that the Mexican government wasn't powerful enough to sustain its massacres against political pressure. And if you look at caribbean colonies, there's a similar dynamic of the initial genocide happening swiftly enough for there not to be much fight left further down the line. More profitable colonies could afford more thorough genocides.
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Apr 3, 2020 03:47
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Captain Monkey posted:Honestly, the differences in colonization have a lot of reasons behind them not the least of which is that there were a lot more people in what is now Mexico than there were in the majority of the United States. That necessarily changes the way that those populations were interacted with by the colonizers. However, your original argument was that US food traditions don't have any indigenous origins. A lot of them do, in fact almost all of them do, even the most hoity-toity white people food now has new world and Native American influence in it. Like don't get me wrong, the history of the US is covered in blood. It's just difficult to try and take the moral high ground when you're defending colonialist Spain. Since the very start all I've been saying is that Mexican cuisine was much more influenced, and in a more direct way, by indigenous cuisine than American cuisine because someone else said that Mexican cuisine is just as colonial as American cuisine, citing ceviche, guacamole, and salsa as reasons for saying that. Guacamole is of course a literal Nahuatl dish, ceviche probably has it's origins in the interplay between Granadan immigrants and various cultures within the Inca Empire, and salsa also being descended from various dishes in central America. The scale of influence is just on a completely different level; I have no clue why we're still arguing this though to be completely honest. I suspect that you probably agree with what I'm saying.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:04
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SlothfulCobra posted:The colonization of the US wasn't all genocidal start to finish either. There were long periods of coexistence. Earlier on in colonization there was even a major problems that Europeans had with colonists running off to join the natives. There was a significant amount of mixing between European and native populations, even if it's mostly downplayed these days, you can see some of it when you read about the First Families of Virginia. By the 19th century, a lot of native americans were even westernizing and adopting more european technologies and styles. That's a big part of why the trail of tears was such a tragedy, when Jackson forced all the natives to move out west, it came out of nowhere. You're probably right, I am definitely not the biggest expert on just about anything. I definitely have a habit of looking mostly at the end state even if the process that it was arrived at was different in different places.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:08
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Sampatrick posted:Since the very start all I've been saying is that Mexican cuisine was much more influenced, and in a more direct way, by indigenous cuisine than American cuisine because someone else said that Mexican cuisine is just as colonial as American cuisine, citing ceviche, guacamole, and salsa as reasons for saying that. Guacamole is of course a literal Nahuatl dish, ceviche probably has it's origins in the interplay between Granadan immigrants and various cultures within the Inca Empire, and salsa also being descended from various dishes in central America. The scale of influence is just on a completely different level; I have no clue why we're still arguing this though to be completely honest. I suspect that you probably agree with what I'm saying. Furthermore, Mexico is more Spanish than the US is any single other of its European colonizers, including Spain, which flew flags over multiple US states. We do not have a state church in the US leftover from a single European colonizer, Spain, as Mexico does. Our leaders come from Irish backgrounds, African backgrounds, English backgrounds, Chinese backgrounds, you name it. You can identify a common language in each country, but you cannot identify a common naming system in the US, because people are Pennsylvania Dutch, Texas German, Chicago Polish, Boston Irish, Palacios Vietnamese, Manhattan Jewish, San Antonio Latino and so on. And not a few, here or there, it's ubiquitous. There are also a shitload of things even most Mexicans don't know about Mexico's colonial history. For example, Mexico administered the Philippines as a colony during the period when Mexico was attempting to pull a Byzantium on Spain - in other words, Mexico acted as a colonial power, subjugating the Filipinos. Probably the biggest trojan horse influence on Mexican food culture (and names) through the Spanish was via the moors (amusing, given that a major border city with Texas is name Matamoros), which is where you get names like "Alvarez / Al Varez" from or words like "Alcalde" which are Arabic in origin. Also, I mean pastor - real pastor. If you can't spot kebab / shwarma / etc from a distance then you're not truly multicultural. That poo poo has nothing to do with indigenous culture. So, yeah, Mexico has a very strong Spanish colonial influence, to which one can only say, "Well thank God it wasn't Belgium or the Netherlands, I guess." ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 05:33
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ReindeerF posted:Texas begs to differ on mesquite not being a product of Texas, unless we're going full on, "Well it didn't come from there." in which case we can just stop talking about anything other than flatbreads and fish or whatever the various pre-colonial tribes ate, since none of us or these foods came from there. I seriously think a lot of Americans don't recall that the Spanish colonized Mexico and that every "Mexican" thing you know is as colonial as every "American" thing you know. It's not like the Mayans and Aztecs sat down to tables full of chips and salsa or were wandering around making table-side guacamole and slurping ceviche, heh. That is most definitely not what you said, as you can see here. Your position was that Mexico was just as colonial as America, and while that is speciously true, it is not actually true because, once again, this entire derail has been about how the scale of indigenous influence on Mexican cuisine isn't remotely similar to the scale of indigenous influence on American cuisine. Literally all of those things you mentioned in that post are actually either direct descended from native dishes or else are closely related to the interplay between a native dish and an immigrant dish - which I have pointed out several times now. The comparison just isn't there except in the most surface level way.
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Apr 3, 2020 05:52
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Can we fight about Okra next?
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Apr 3, 2020 06:08
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Marxalot posted:Can we fight about Okra next? *eats a gringa*
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Apr 3, 2020 06:12
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Marxalot posted:Can we fight about Okra next? Who here doesn't do tamales for Christmas? Out yourselves, fer'ners
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Apr 3, 2020 07:03
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I hope the spring semester starts back up soon so you can go back to scolding undergraduates.
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Apr 3, 2020 07:06
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Tex Mex is good but I can only eat so much beans and cheese
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Apr 3, 2020 08:15
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Marxalot posted:Can we fight about Okra next? Pickled Okra is so good, but so dangerous in this time of limited tp.
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Apr 3, 2020 08:36
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Sampatrick posted:That is most definitely not what you said, as you can see here. Your position was that Mexico was just as colonial as America, and while that is speciously true, it is not actually true because, once again, this entire derail has been about how the scale of indigenous influence on Mexican cuisine isn't remotely similar to the scale of indigenous influence on American cuisine. Literally all of those things you mentioned in that post are actually either direct descended from native dishes or else are closely related to the interplay between a native dish and an immigrant dish - which I have pointed out several times now. The comparison just isn't there except in the most surface level way. I like 50% agree with you, but you really are ignoring a huge amount of food that you’d think of as white/southern that are actually of Native American origin. I even listed a bunch of them. Mexico is not more purely indigenous than the US, they’re just two very, very different countries. You’re comparing limes and oranges and trying to claim that only limes are citrus.
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Apr 3, 2020 15:18
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hosed up situation in the Valley - a sizable number of new cases are being reported in children, the youngest including an 8-month old baby (in addition to multiple in the 1-10 age range). The assumption is that confirmed people are actively spreading it to their kids through not isolating or the kids themselves are becoming infected because their parents are bringing them everywhere with them, what the gently caress.
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Apr 3, 2020 16:31
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Captain Monkey posted:I like 50% agree with you, but you really are ignoring a huge amount of food that you’d think of as white/southern that are actually of Native American origin. I even listed a bunch of them. Mexico is not more purely indigenous than the US, they’re just two very, very different countries. You’re comparing limes and oranges and trying to claim that only limes are citrus. Let's just drop the derail, I don't think we are going to come to any degree of consensus at this point
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Apr 3, 2020 16:56
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I like Tex-Mex, but I don't understand who the aggrieved race is if you poo poo on Tex-Mex. I think the popular conception of Tex-Mex is that it's an Anglo corruption of "real" Mexican food. Whether that's actually true is kind of irrelevant to the discourse.
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Apr 3, 2020 17:03
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drat dude we just got him to stop....
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Apr 3, 2020 17:17
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Can we not politicize Tex Mex. It's good food.
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Apr 3, 2020 17:19
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IT BURNS posted:hosed up situation in the Valley - a sizable number of new cases are being reported in children, the youngest including an 8-month old baby (in addition to multiple in the 1-10 age range). The assumption is that confirmed people are actively spreading it to their kids through not isolating or the kids themselves are becoming infected because their parents are bringing them everywhere with them, what the gently caress. It's only going to get worse, especially in Hidalgo county, too many homes are one house multi generational.  Like the Valley is sorta unique in that a LOT of family, extended or otherwise, are relatively close by that in theory you could have your in the beginning non infected kids stay with a tio/tia, but when you take into the poverty rate down here you have a fuckton of families barely making it as is even without this whole plague. gently caress there's a nice Spanish speaking old timer that comes regularly to pick up the cardboard boxes we flatten here at the liquor store. He picks it up takes it to get recycled and he makes a few bucks, always nice always relatively cheery. Now he's visibly shaken he still makes his rounds but is obviously afraid of getting sick. But this is his only means of income for himself and wife. I loving hate this.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:13
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https://twitter.com/RobertTGarrett/status/1246162715304964097 It's on hospital bed capacity. Abbott says the state has 8k+ ventilators available for use and 4k icu beds. IHME's worst projections for vents/icu capacity are well below this, but we'll see how these curves change once everyone figures out what to do with the China data. https://twitter.com/RobertTGarrett/status/1246164445556027393 I'll say this, putting John Zerwas in charge of the state hospital response was smart as hell, he's one of those impossibly competent dad republicans zoux fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 20:57
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zoux posted:It's on hospital bed capacity. Abbott says the state has 8k+ ventilators available for use and 4k icu beds. IHME's worst projections for vents/icu capacity are well below this, but we'll see how these curves change once everyone figures out what to do with the China data. IHME may be... bullshit. enraged_camel posted:More inaccuracies in that University of Washington projection models.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:11
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Well what's a good model https://twitter.com/RobertTGarrett/status/1246170447626067977 zoux fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 21:14
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I haven't found any good ones with accurate predictions, and that's probably because of a combination of things: extremely inaccurate and inconsistent reporting, wildly different definitions for the terms "lockdown", "shelter-in-place" and so on, and the enormous variance in how well people in different states and locales are obeying them. However, this site has been fairly good at predicting the big picture: https://covidactnow.org
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Apr 3, 2020 21:25
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we are extremely hosed
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Apr 3, 2020 21:30
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enraged_camel posted:I haven't found any good ones with accurate predictions, and that's probably because of a combination of things: extremely inaccurate and inconsistent reporting, wildly different definitions for the terms "lockdown", "shelter-in-place" and so on, and the enormous variance in how well people in different states and locales are obeying them. They got a version that shows their CI
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Apr 3, 2020 21:39
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I'm extremely sorry that I asked about beans in chilie. I did not expect it to escalate into a refighting of the colonial wars. I'm sorry everyone.
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Apr 3, 2020 22:49
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chili chilli chile chilie chillie
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Apr 3, 2020 23:12
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