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And narrowing aesthetics to that which glorifies existing power structures is hardly an invention of the fascists gently caress, read Roman poetry
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May 30, 2020 19:20
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Again you are deflecting. Describing a problem does not necessitate prescribing a solution I have to know what the experience of engaging with art means in the context of this particular argument because those terms are historically contingent and not transparent to others reading your posts. Are you arguing in favor of some kind of transhistorical aesthetic experience? A specific example would help.
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May 30, 2020 19:26
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I have to know what the experience of engaging with art means in the context of this particular argument because those terms are historically contingent and not transparent to others reading your posts. Are you arguing in favor of some kind of transhistorical aesthetic experience? A specific example would help. This feels circuitous and I am not sure how to more clearly say the criticism doesnt have a prescriptive mandate
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May 30, 2020 19:58
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Mel Mudkiper posted:And narrowing aesthetics to that which glorifies existing power structures is hardly an invention of the fascists No-one said it was an invention of the fascists, but it is a hallmark of what fascism (among other political movements) wanted from its art. But it's interesting that you bring up Roman poetry, with Roman art held up by a lot of fascists as the right kind of art, not this modernist stuff that causes people to be confused and ask questions. Edit: Never mind the bullshit you put onto it about "glorifying existing power structures."
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May 30, 2020 20:11
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Mrenda posted:But it's interesting that you bring up Roman poetry, with Roman art held up by a lot of fascists as the right kind of art, not this modernist stuff that causes people to be confused and ask questions. lol this dumb guilt-by-association stuff is a symptom of terminal online brain
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May 30, 2020 22:08
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Mrenda posted:not this modernist stuff that causes people to be confused and ask questions. futurism was literally a modernist movement by mostly fascists (even people who went on to write the manifesto of Mussolini’s movement). just because Hitler was against anything that wasn’t kitsch and immediately appealing doesn’t mean every fascist/authoritarian state was, and his main argument against just boiled down to anything not approved being jewish and commie/n-wordy and not “purely aryan enough” thus swing and jazz being banned alongside modernist art ulvir fucked around with this message at 22:22 on May 30, 2020 |
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May 30, 2020 22:19
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chernobyl kinsman posted:lol this dumb guilt-by-association stuff is a symptom of terminal online brain Are you always this stupid or are you just incapable of reading because nowhere did I assign guilt. ulvir posted:futurism was literally a modernist movement by mostly fascists (even people who went on to write the manifesto of Mussolini’s movement). Are you really saying that one of the main aspects of fascist art isn't a valorisation of fascism and the people of fascism?
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May 30, 2020 22:39
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Mrenda posted:Are you really saying that one of the main aspects of fascist art isn't a valorisation of fascism and the people of fascism? The main aspect of any political art is the valorisation of the political system that spawned it I mean, have you seen Soviet Art?
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May 30, 2020 22:41
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Mrenda posted:Are you really saying that one of the main aspects of fascist art isn't a valorisation of fascism and the people of fascism? my dude, not all art is propaganda
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May 30, 2020 22:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The main aspect of any political art is the valorisation of the political system that spawned it Yes. And religious art. And I've also read Marxist literature. And... And... And... My point about uncritical engagement with a work being more akin to fascism than something borne of "subhumans" was simply because fascism is particularly dogmatic, and especially relevant to this situation, seeing as "subhumans" was the topic and that links to fascism. Maybe Nazism would be better? But that doesn't seem to be the argument we're having.
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May 30, 2020 22:57
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Mrenda posted:Yes. And religious art. And I've also read Marxist literature. And... And... And... What’s a good method for reading, according to you? If we’re going to have antifascist theory for talking about art, what does that look like?
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May 30, 2020 23:08
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Bigger question: can one possibly have a non ideological stance for reading? Meaning doesn't one's ideology prescribe or define in part what books will be most appealing to oneself?
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May 30, 2020 23:11
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Bilirubin posted:Bigger question: can one possibly have a non ideological stance for reading? Meaning doesn't one's ideology prescribe or define in part what books will be most appealing to oneself? Kind of I don't think its possible to read or create neutrally. But that more means you bring your perspective into everything you engage with rather than that you only choose things that will agree with you.
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May 30, 2020 23:14
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Bilirubin posted:Bigger question: can one possibly have a non ideological stance for reading? Meaning doesn't one's ideology prescribe or define in part what books will be most appealing to oneself? Of course not. That’s what it means to have a method or a theory in the first place, unless someone is using ideology in its original sense of “false consciousness,” which seems to be what some people here are describing when talking about reading as consumerism. But a good question for them would be “what does freedom from false consciousness entail?”
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May 30, 2020 23:15
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Have you even read a little book called the bible? Sound familiar?
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May 30, 2020 23:26
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:What’s a good method for reading, according to you? If we’re going to have antifascist theory for talking about art, what does that look like? I think you have to start at an intentional level. I read to be stimulated. I watch comedy TV shows before bed for the opposite reason, to wind down. I think at that point judgement can occur. A judgement which would differ for someone reading books to wind down at night and watching prestige TV to be stimulated. It would again differ from someone who watches comedy TV all day to not engage with anything and someone who avoids real world interaction by intellectualising their existence by reading books all the time. The question for me is why are you judging the reading/the book and not the elements surrounding it? (And I do think there's a difference between the intent in reading something and the purpose of a book.)
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May 30, 2020 23:28
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I think it would be cool if the really-into-Literature posters in this forum would get a thread together as some kind of starting point for getting more people in to it. Not everyone who reads as a pass-time/casually (genre, airport poo poo, etc) is going to get huge in to niche 60s authors or whatever, but it's something I'd bite in to if there were good recommendations and a positive atmosphere.
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May 31, 2020 02:01
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TheAardvark posted:I think it would be cool if the really-into-Literature posters in this forum would get a thread together as some kind of starting point for getting more people in to it. that's what many many pages of the 'real literature' thread were about at the beginning
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May 31, 2020 02:11
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A human heart posted:that's what many many pages of the 'real literature' thread were about at the beginning Sounds like a great reason to post a new thread, 6 years later, that doesn't begin with this: quote:Seriously. Almost every thread in this place is for genre novels. As Stephen King said, his novels are the literary version of a Big Mac and fries. Is this all you people read? Do you eat only fast food and hate to talk about filet mignon as well? Seriously, try to read something good for a loving change. You're not in high school anymore, read some loving real works of art.
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May 31, 2020 02:13
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TheAardvark posted:I think it would be cool if the really-into-Literature posters in this forum would get a thread together as some kind of starting point for getting more people in to it. Hey I'd be down for this too, I tend to avoid literature/fiction that isn't genre because there's oodles of it and it's all either unapproachable or sounds boring. Having a "hey this is cool and here's why" thread would be a fun way to branch out.
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May 31, 2020 02:16
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Part of why I'm saying this is because I recently read Black Oxen by Elizabeth Knox and while it has elements of fantasy in it, so much of it is wrapped up in the emotional and cultural lives of these characters that it felt a lot like litfic instead of the fantasy novel I was expecting. Which was cool!
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May 31, 2020 02:18
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Ya I’d follow a thread that would motivate me to look up many of the big words I read here and don’t know
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May 31, 2020 02:19
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nut posted:Ya I’d follow a thread that would motivate me to look up many of the big words I read here and don’t know we're going to find out what nacreous means one of these days, god help me.
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May 31, 2020 02:22
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TheAardvark posted:we're going to find out what nacreous means one of these days, god help me. That word sounds like it belongs in the horror thread, so ask around in there, I bet they know
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May 31, 2020 02:22
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TheAardvark posted:Sounds like a great reason to post a new thread, 6 years later, that doesn't begin with this: Its still relevant six years later tho
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May 31, 2020 02:24
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Its still relevant six years later tho I don't want to take book recs from a thread that thinks I'm an uncultured idiot. I mean I am that, but don't say it to my face.
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May 31, 2020 02:25
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StrixNebulosa posted:I don't want to take book recs from a thread that thinks I'm an uncultured idiot. I mean I am that, but don't say it to my face. I don't want to give book recs to people who get wildly insecure about what they read
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May 31, 2020 02:27
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Its still relevant six years later tho Do you actually want to get new people in to seriously looking at literature, or do you want to be superior for already being in to it? Which is more important to you?
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May 31, 2020 02:28
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its not even like "LITERATURE" is a big box every agrees on Half of the lit thread is us fighting about whether America even has literature anymore Its not like there is a big forbidden door leading into the palace of Literature and you need a special key to access it. Good books are not some secret hidden away. Go read a book that has some good reviews or that sounds interesting to you but is outside of your comfort zone. Thats all it takes. TheAardvark posted:Do you actually want to get new people in to seriously looking at literature, or do you want to be superior for already being in to it? Which is more important to you? Neither.
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May 31, 2020 02:30
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Neither. Then why are you here? What is your goal in this forum? Sorry H.A. for talking about posting here, but he is literally saying he has no interest in changing peoples' opinions, but he constantly posts things dragging people. The "never talk about posters" thing just lets him do this forever, and ever, and ever, and makes this an idiotic hole in time to 10 years ago.
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May 31, 2020 02:35
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I want to post what I think about book things and don't give a poo poo if you agree or in convincing you to agree your consent or dissent are both equally meaningless to me friend
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May 31, 2020 02:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:its not even like "LITERATURE" is a big box every agrees on I don't think it's wrong to want a guided entry into a genre, even one as vast and weird as "literature". I'm not asking for a special key, I'm asking for something that the genre threads have the courtesy of doing: "hey you're a new reader check out xyz, they're cool". And "go read a book that has some good reviews" isn't good advice because there is no central repository of reliable book reviews. Goodreads is garbage for a lot of reasons, and then there are book reviews everywhere and like, come on. At least say "hey I like this review blog" so someone has a starting point. I'm really not a fan of this elitist attitude I see in this forum when it comes to non-genre books. Making fun of people for reading "bad" books is in poor form. It also leads to this kind of insular circle-jerk where the only people discussing literature are the same kind of elitist people, and that's not great for discussion.
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May 31, 2020 02:40
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I want to post what I think about book things and don't give a poo poo if you agree or in convincing you to agree Now this is just needlessly hostile.
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May 31, 2020 02:41
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StrixNebulosa posted:I don't think it's wrong to want a guided entry into a genre, even one as vast and weird as "literature". I'm not asking for a special key, I'm asking for something that the genre threads have the courtesy of doing: "hey you're a new reader check out xyz, they're cool". Non-genre fiction is also such a large field that "good reviews" can easily mean that it's only good within the scope of having read a lot of other certain works. Some things need context. That's something that a "newbie lit" thread would be able to help out with.
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May 31, 2020 02:43
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StrixNebulosa posted:I don't think it's wrong to want a guided entry into a genre, even one as vast and weird as "literature". I'm not asking for a special key, I'm asking for something that the genre threads have the courtesy of doing: "hey you're a new reader check out xyz, they're cool". Theres no guide, theres no answer I got into lit by just grabbing books that looked cool. I looked at what was winning prizes. I listened to names that came up. I found Saramago because I thought it had a neat cover. You don't need a Virgil for this journey just take it
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May 31, 2020 02:45
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If you are reading a book because you want outside validation that what you are reading is meaningful you are doing it wrong
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May 31, 2020 02:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If you are reading a book because you want outside validation that what you are reading is meaningful you are doing it wrong Nobody said that. We're genre readers who are interested in some more complex/meaningful works, and would like help getting in to them. If anything, your opposition to that supports the fact that you just want outside validation for liking things casual readers don't.
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May 31, 2020 02:49
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I just can't imagine being really interested in something and not being excited about new people taking interest in it.
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May 31, 2020 02:50
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TheAardvark posted:Nobody said that. We're genre readers who are interested in some more complex/meaningful works, and would like help getting in to them. How about this. What are you interested in? What topics interest you? I will tell you what comes to mind. The problem is that you are asking for an entrance to something that doesn't have an entrance. There is no such thing as "helping people get into it" because there is no "it" TheAardvark posted:I just can't imagine being really interested in something and not being excited about new people taking interest in it. The pleasure of text is deeply personal
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May 31, 2020 02:51
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I think it’s a good argument to participate in the botm thread when the book sounds interesting to you (or to make sure you vote on something if it looks interesting). I try to comb the what-have-I-finished thread for recs but it’s not really designed for that. An introductory lit thread is a nice idea but also how anyone participates in something like that, like all threads, is entirely up to them. I don’t mind being called dumb for reading bad books and I don’t want to try to extract book recs from someone who isn’t here to give them.
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May 31, 2020 02:52
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