|
MRC48B posted:The other advantage of screws is easy removal. Why are you removing your house frame? Something that leads me to use screws where nails would probably be more appropriate is a mild background fear that I'm going to gently caress up and have to redo something. Never had to do framing, though.
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
If you're like me, you'll get the occasional mis-driven nail that has to be pried out, but it's not generally a big deal. I would be concerned about flex with screws. House frames don't move much but they do move some, and fasteners that can't move with them may get weakened and eventually break. That's all supposition on my part though. Nails are also easier to deal with than screws when it comes to demolition. You can whack a 2x4 with a sledgehammer and gradually break it free from the boards it's nailed to, but each screw has to be removed individually. There's also the fact that installing walls on a wooden subfloor is usually done by nailing the wall to the subfloor while the wall is lying flat, then raising it up into position (bending the nails in the process) and securing it with more nails. Stuff like that isn't feasible with screws, so you're always going to need at least some nails on the jobsite.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 19:33
|
|
|
Decks are just frames and you build decks with screws.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 19:46
|
|
|
DreadLlama posted:Decks are just frames and you build decks with screws. Decks aren't under anything like the same loads as houses.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Nails are also easier to deal with than screws when it comes to demolition. You can whack a 2x4 with a sledgehammer and gradually break it free from the boards it's nailed to, but each screw has to be removed individually. Sounds like you're not whacking hard enough. TooMuchAbstraction posted:There's also the fact that installing walls on a wooden subfloor is usually done by nailing the wall to the subfloor while the wall is lying flat, then raising it up into position (bending the nails in the process) and securing it with more nails. Stuff like that isn't feasible with screws, so you're always going to need at least some nails on the jobsite. Why would it be done that way?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 20:33
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:Why would it be done that way? The initial nails make it easy to line up the wall in the right place, and help hold it in place when you first lift it into place. You don't want to be trying to nudge a wall 1/4" over after you've already raised it into position. Like, it's doable, but why would you when there's an easier way?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 20:39
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:From everything I've been reading recently it's a little from column "code", a little from column "2000 nails are cheaper than 2000 screws" and a little from column "screws tend to break when nails bend" Framing nailers are as safe as the user. If you've used a finish nailer, it's just bigger. I've used them for decades, and they're glorious on a big job. There's no reason to use screws unless you're anal about windshear, etc and then you've got a whole nother can of worms. You never clarified whether you're actually doing timber framing- in which case both nails and screws are not feasible, you're then talking spikes or lag bolts. So I assume you're doing stick framing, because unless you can mill your own timber, it's loving expensive. As far as shear strength, nail gun nails come in those plasticky arrays of 20-30 as you know. What you may not know is that some of that plastic merely spaces the nails apart for rapid fire; the nail coating is heat-activated epoxy which the friction of the nail entering wood (at high speed) melts to add a glue bond.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
wesleywillis posted:Probably not the best thread for this question but since we're on the subject of framing. Cost aside, can you use the appropriate sized screws rather than nails for framing a house? Like I understand different jurisdictions = different building codes, but is the reason people don't use screws for framing a function of "nails are cheaper, and faster and we don't have the budget", or is there some other reason like screws bend/break easier? Screws shear, nails don't. If you're using screws large enough to compensate, you're likely going to cause the framing to split or weaken. But also, nails are a fuckton cheaper than screws, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 03:44
|
|
|
Hubis posted:That is just gorgeous Thanks! 
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
DreadLlama posted:Decks are just frames and you build decks with screws. You use "deck screws" for the decking on top (where the screw is serving to squeeze the board onto the joist). For everything else, you'd better be using nails or lag/through-bolts. Also nails are even easier for demolition because they aren't hardened like screws, so you can just sawzall right through them without screwing up your blade. E: code explanation Hubis fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jun 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 04:54
|
|
|
What's the honest purpose of something like a box of 4" #8 hot dipped galvanized screws in that case? Honeypot for idiots?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 18:01
|
|
|
Mr. Mambold posted:Framing nailers are as safe as the user. If you've used a finish nailer, it's just bigger. I've used them for decades, and they're glorious on a big job. There's no reason to use screws unless you're anal about windshear, etc and then you've got a whole nother can of worms. You never clarified whether you're actually doing timber framing- in which case both nails and screws are not feasible, you're then talking spikes or lag bolts. So I assume you're doing stick framing, because unless you can mill your own timber, it's loving expensive. As you understand it yes I'm talking stick framing. I'm going to build a little 8'x12' office in the back yard which while isn't a large amount of framing by any means is going to go slowly hammering by hand. I also remembered/realised the floor is going to be put together with joist hangers which have to be hand nailed with little twist nails, so the more I think about it the less I actually need a nail gun for, the bulk of it is the 4 walls and roof. I'll screw the osb sheathing on too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 18:32
|
|
|
DreadLlama posted:What's the honest purpose of something like a box of 4" #8 hot dipped galvanized screws in that case? Honeypot for idiots? Wooden frame fences for one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 19:53
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:I also remembered/realised the floor is going to be put together with joist hangers which have to be hand nailed with little twist nails, so the more I think about it the less I actually need a nail gun for, the bulk of it is the 4 walls and roof. There's a reason framing nailers often come packaged with a palm nailer. They're freaking awesome for tico nails into joist hangers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
Motronic posted:There's a reason framing nailers often come packaged with a palm nailer. They're freaking awesome for tico nails into joist hangers. Let's not talk him out of it. He's totally into swinging that big dick 24oz hammer until his shoulder blows out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
Mr. Mambold posted:Wooden frame fences for one. I used them to good effect building planter boxes too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
Screws carry much higher shear, pull out, and load values than nails ever could. As you all have been talking about with decking, nails displace the substrate by design, where screws become part of the substrate by design. Nails, either hand drive or pneumatic, are MUCH cheaper than screws and the pneumatic tools drive much faster. For residential housing that is driven by cost, you will of course see these labor savings used. The strength values aren't even close, but for stick framing the nails meet code. Even with more nails required, still obviously a lot cheaper than screws. If I were just trying to build a tryhard house I would still do key structural connections with screws to add strength (trusses, ridgepoles, floor joists, sub floors) but would use pneumatic nails for the general interior framing and screws for the sub floor, rafter connections, exterior sheathing, and of course all the drywall.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 20:08
|
|
|
Mr. Mambold posted:Let's not talk him out of it. He's totally into swinging that big dick 24oz hammer until his shoulder blows out. Don't know where you're getting that idea or attitude but I just want to build this glorified shed without spending more on tools than materials and beer, I'll use screws if that's the right thing to use for the frame.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 20:26
|
|
|
Hed posted:Screws carry much [url=http://www.grabberman.com/Media/TechnicalData/4733.pdf]higher shear I had no idea. I've ever snapped a nail but have popped plenty of screws, so I just assumed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
Mr. Mambold posted:Let's not talk him out of it. He's totally into swinging that big dick 24oz hammer until his shoulder blows out. It's a shame that they didn't have those fancy titanium hammers back when you had to do framing work by hand.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
GnarlyCharlie4u posted:I had no idea. We also frame houses in such a way as to not rely hugely on the shear strength of metal fasteners. This was more true when joists were notched into or laid on top of sills/foundations-less so now that we use joist hangers- but most of the important stuff is in compression. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jun 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:Don't know where you're getting that idea or attitude but I just want to build this glorified shed without spending more on tools than materials and beer, I'll use screws if that's the right thing to use for the frame. Just providing negative incentive, bro. coathat posted:It's a shame that they didn't have those fancy titanium hammers back when you had to do framing work by hand. Real men didn't need hammers, they just punched those nails home
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
So, not to disrupt all this nail/screw talk, but. does anyone have any finish nailer brand/model suggestions? I’m new to the nailer world ( ) and not sure if the guidance on a Senco pin nailer I’ve received helps me w/r/t finish nailers. I really doubt I’d be doing much other than trim work with it ever, but as generally useful as I can go would be great.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
So what I'm getting from this discussion is that nails are the right thing to use but they need to be screwed in by pelvic thrusting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:So what I'm getting from this discussion is that nails are the right thing to use but they need to be screwed in by pelvic thrusting. If you don't have the right tool at hand, a 6" rigid nipple makes a decent improvised driver.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
I think I'm out of my depth, maybe I should dig a hole instead, would the thread recommend a soup or dessert spoon?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:I think I'm out of my depth, maybe I should dig a hole instead, would the thread recommend a soup or dessert spoon? desert spoon if it's sandy soil
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
^^^ Sand can be abrasive, so it would be best to hardface the spoon first.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 11:20
|
|
|
Yeah be careful or you'll end up with a chafing dish
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 18:06
|
|
|
Thickness planer Q&A time: I went back a bit and didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd ask. I'm looking to get my first thickness planer. I don't feel like I know enough about them to go shopping for a used one. So my questions are, for a fairly casual though increasingly serious woodworker who will use this not only as a planer but also as a jointer with a sled, (and I'm not set on Dewalt, just using them as a base of comparison): 1) What's the difference in quality between the Dewalt 734 and something ~$100 cheaper like this, this, or this? 2) What do you really get for the extra $100+ going from the Dewalt 734 to the 735?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:34
|
|
|
Admiralty Flag posted:Thickness planer Q&A time: I went back a bit and didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd ask. I'm looking to get my first thickness planer. I don't feel like I know enough about them to go shopping for a used one. So my questions are, for a fairly casual though increasingly serious woodworker who will use this not only as a planer but also as a jointer with a sled, (and I'm not set on Dewalt, just using them as a base of comparison): The 735 uses 4 threaded rods on the corners where the 734 uses 2 in the center with guide rods on the corners. You will presumably get less snipe as the head doesn't tilt when the blades hit/come off the wood. The 735 also has 2 speeds which allow for a cleaner finish after hogging off a bunch at slower speed. The 735 is widely regarded as the best of the portable planers, if you have the money to drop on it then it would be worth it. That being said I use an old Central Machinery 12" planer and it does just fine. There are a lot of tricks to minimize snipe and as long as the blades are sharp they cut clean.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
Admiralty Flag posted:Thickness planer Q&A time: I went back a bit and didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd ask. I'm looking to get my first thickness planer. I don't feel like I know enough about them to go shopping for a used one. So my questions are, for a fairly casual though increasingly serious woodworker who will use this not only as a planer but also as a jointer with a sled, (and I'm not set on Dewalt, just using them as a base of comparison): I have a dewalt 734 and it’s good but I haven’t used it a ton. Lunchbox planers are dead simple and I’m not sure you really get a better planer buying a nice name brand. My old shop had a janky af old ryobi and it worked great. I don’t think WEN has a very good reputation, and triton is iirc out of business to some extent, so parts might be hard to come by. I think delta/Porter Cable/Ridgid/deWalt/Makita lunchbox planers are probably all roughly equivalently good, and probably not a huge step up from a harbor freight special. They are all a universal motor attached to some columns, a big screw, 2 feed rollers and a cutter head-there’s just not a ton to gently caress up there. The big fat heavy DeWalt is a bit of a step up and definitely the best portable planer, but it’s also heavy af and expensive and loud. It’s at about the point you might want to start thinking about a 15” machine that doesn’t use a bigass universal motor imo. Snipe can be an issue on all these planers and it is sort of inherent in the design. Someone itt or the woodworking thread recently posted a neat table with slightly angled in/out feed tables to help with snipe but I can’t remember who/where (maybe Jeeves?)
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:34
|
|
|
While I can't recommend a particular planer, carbide inserts would absolutely be my choice over HSS blades. Maybe it was something completely unrelated, but when my makerspace switched from knives to inserts it was a night-and-day kind of difference in both the resulting finish and the LOUD NOISES.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 05:01
|
|
|
Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Snipe can be an issue on all these planers and it is sort of inherent in the design. Someone itt or the woodworking thread recently posted a neat table with slightly angled in/out feed tables to help with snipe but I can’t remember who/where (maybe Jeeves?) Yup that was me, been working great.   Trabant posted:While I can't recommend a particular planer, carbide inserts would absolutely be my choice over HSS blades. Maybe it was something completely unrelated, but when my makerspace switched from knives to inserts it was a night-and-day kind of difference in both the resulting finish and the LOUD NOISES. If you are talking about Helical heads I don't see a huge difference in the cuts TBH. But this on the makerspace Powermatic 209HH that gets a poo poo ton of use (and abuse). The blades get rotated once a month and even that is not enough. It is also about 2-3 hours to rotate them all and make sure they are aligned otherwise you get lines in your surface.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 09:07
|
|
|
Whoever suggested a remote control outlet for dust extractors, I love you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:Whoever suggested a remote control outlet for dust extractors, I love you. That was me too  so simple and cheap, such a vast improvement. Hang the key fobs from the blast gates and never forget to open/close again.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 19:15
|
|
|
My Fluke 87v reads 2 or 3ohm when the leads are shorted (no decimals). I tried cleaning the leads but no luck. It also reads 2 or 3 ohm high when measuring resistance. Any recommendations on where to send it for repair? I looked online and Fluke wants like just $150 to calibrate it. If I had spent $500 on it in the first place I might consider it but I got it used, so it's a $160 tool in my mind.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 15:10
|
|
|
Do you have another set of leads to try before you do anything else?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 16:24
|
|
|
I tried leads from a different meter on the Fluke with the same result. I tried the Fluke leads on the other multimeter and it read 0 when I shorted them so I know it's not the leads. I also cleaned out the connections and no dirt or grit came out so I'm pretty sure it was already spotless in there. I tested again afterwards and got the same result.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
GnarlyCharlie4u posted:I tried leads from a different meter on the Fluke with the same result. Ouch. Yeah, I mean.....you need a calibration tool at this point. And I don't think anybody, even a mail in place, is going to do it got less than $100.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 18:25
|
|