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D-Pad posted:Eehhh. Most of what's presented focuses on the elite class like space Marines etc. Whenever you get a look into the average citizens experience it is always about as worse as you can imagine. Poster above did it pretty well but yeah. There is a metric gently caress ton of planets that are fine to live on and even all the hiveworlds aren't complete shitholes. For starters agri planets can be pretty loving nice. Arquinsiel posted:Even before the bad stuff happens it's still pretty drat grim. That's why the thread title used to be "go read Eisenhorn". It shows you how bad everything is everywhere. Eisenhorn isnt the end all representation of life on imperial planets.
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Jun 8, 2020 20:36
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SerCypher posted:We only see the bad worlds of the Imperium because that's where the trouble happens and that's where our heroes go. So says the imperial propaganda that they guy stationed on Buttfuck Nowherius IIV is watching, as the necron tomb beneath him starts to awaken in response to the chaos fleet that just appeared in orbit
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Jun 8, 2020 20:39
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Improbable Lobster posted:So says the imperial propaganda that they guy stationed on Buttfuck Nowherius IIV is watching, as the necron tomb beneath him starts to awaken in response to the chaos fleet that just appeared in orbit Yeah thats the big one. poo poo can happen anywhere.
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Jun 8, 2020 20:44
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah thats the big one. poo poo can happen anywhere. Yes, but it usually doesn't. I mean 9th edition might be the time they turn up the heat and everything is on fire everywhere. I haven't been reading the lore for about a decade so maybe I'm wrong now. However for every chaos fleet that suddenly appears over a planet, it's only sudden because the planet had been chilling out for the past 1000 years and sending its tithe. All over the imperium people are still getting some beers after work, reading novels and doing some prayers. Taking a break from the factory making leman russ shells to smoke a lho stick with your buds and complain about your boss. We just don't see those people though unless it's right before or right after some poo poo goes down.
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Jun 8, 2020 20:57
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Telsa Cola posted:
That's been established in universe as bullshit Imperial propaganda used to entice hivers to move to agri-worlds to toil away in heavily chemically polluted monoculture factory farm planets for the rest of their short miserable lives. Once every ounce of productivity has been squeezed out of said agri-world through the most efficiently unsustainable means, it's left as a wasteland. Part of the point of 40k is that there is no space utopia in the Imperium, even the "paradise planets" are just a facade to cover a massive corrupt infrastructure based on suffering, or secretly hiding a massive chaos cult, or genestealer infestation. Rogue Traders themselves might live a nice life, but then you remember that warp ships are the size of a city block and require crews of thousands of people who live their entire lives in shipboard squalor. 40k is a funhouse mirror of everything wrong with the real world, amplified and distorted.
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Jun 8, 2020 21:20
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SerCypher posted:Yes, but it usually doesn't. Ding ding ding The great goatseing of the eye of terror amped up the bad
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Jun 8, 2020 21:25
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Bucnasti posted:That's been established in universe as bullshit Imperial propaganda used to entice hivers to move to agri-worlds to toil away in heavily chemically polluted monoculture factory farm planets for the rest of their short miserable lives. Once every ounce of productivity has been squeezed out of said agri-world through the most efficiently unsustainable means, it's left as a wasteland. "Home. The mere thought of the word was enough to make him turn his head and look over his shoulder across the swaying rows of ripening grain toward the small collection of farm buildings onthe other side of the field behind him. He saw the old barn with its sloping, wood-shingled roof. He saw the round tower of the grain silo: the ginny-hen coops he had helped build with his father; thesmall stock pen where they kept the draft horses and a herd of half-a-dozen alpacas.Most of all, he saw the farmhouse where he had been born and raised. Two-storeyed, with a low wooden porch out front and the shutters on the windows left open to let in the last of the light. Given the unchanging routines of his familys existence, Larn did not need to see inside to know what was happening within. His mother would be in the kitchen cooking the evening meal, his sisters helping her set the table, his father in the cellar workshop with his tools. Then, just as they did every night,once their chores were done the family would sit down at the table together and eat. Tomorrow night they would do the same again, the pattern of their lives repeating endlessly day after day, varying only with the changing of the seasons." Oh no, the horror. Not all agri-worlds are monoculture horros. Tanith comes to mind. So does Flint. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 21:30
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Yeah, part of the point of the Imperium is that its big enough and diverse enough that you have some worlds that are hellish mono-cultured death zones, some that are gigantic agrarian idyll's from Thomas Jefferson's wet dreams, some are massive factory farms with almost no human involvement, some that are just basically Earth circa 1000AD with spaceports people deliver their tithe to and all of them are counted as 'Agri-worlds' as long as they hit their quotas.
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Jun 8, 2020 21:39
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Even the Eisenhorn series visits pretty nice planets. Gregor settles on Gudrun because it's a pleasant place, and what we see of it as he travels around it incognito seems to confirm it's not just on the surface. Ravenor usually takes a random mind-walk through each new planet to get a sense of what it's like, and while we see some awful poo poo on the acid-rain Administrum hive, another one is a sunny low-tech world that feels like a sleepy Mediterranean town.
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Jun 8, 2020 21:40
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Telsa Cola posted:a one page description of the main character's homeworld, inserted into a book about how the main character can expect to live 15 hours to provide dramatic contrast it is genuinely funny to see someone fall for imperial propaganda irl his world isn't an agri-world, it's designed to produce idiots like him as guard-fodder of course it's pretty on the surface
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Jun 8, 2020 21:41
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The RPG books seem to have gone whole hog in the "Everything is 300% grim" but the actual books seems to have gone with "There are about a million different flavors of how poo poo works".
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Jun 8, 2020 21:43
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Where's that agri-world post from that death guard book
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Jun 8, 2020 21:44
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Relevant Tangent posted:it is genuinely funny to see someone fall for imperial propaganda irl Thats not really how guard foundings work, so no? The planet got picked/called to raise two regiments. Most imperial planets of most tithe grades can have that happen to them. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 21:45
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Improbable Lobster posted:Where's that agri-world post from that death guard book Not sure the thousands of years old religious fanatic plague monster is a reliable source of information on the wider scope of the imperium.
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Jun 8, 2020 21:48
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The scale of the Imperium allows for nice things to exist in it, as the minority. It's pretty dumb to argue that it's always awful everywhere at all times since that's just boring bad writing. There are probably still cool places inside the Eye of Terror itself, but like elsewhere, it becomes a poo poo show whenever a Chaos warband visits. The Imperium is just the biggest Chaos warband in the universe.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:01
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Telsa Cola posted:For starters agri planets can be pretty loving nice. I see you haven't read Lords Of Silence. But also there is a straight classification of "Paradise World" so it's not all poo poo, I guess.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:03
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Inspector_666 posted:I see you haven't read Lords Of Silence. Some agri-worlds suck, some do not. This isn't a crazy stance. There is at least one agri-world where their entire tithe is basically all the nomadic herders bringing their animals to a spacesport and selling some/trading others. Paradise worlds are likely fairly lovely for whatever servant class there is I imagine. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 22:08
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Inspector_666 posted:How the hell is Roboute Surcouf not on this page? I definitely don't know who that is. The only rogue trader I've read about personally is the one from Eisenhorn.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The scale of the Imperium allows for nice things to exist in it, as the minority. It's pretty dumb to argue that it's always awful everywhere at all times since that's just boring bad writing. It's this. You have to have nice worlds so that it's more of a tragedy when a million hungry bugs fall from the sky. To be fair, even the nice worlds are by definition under the grip of a facist theocracy. It just varies how that's expressed.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:13
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D-Pad posted:You've fallen for Imperial propoganda. From Chris Wraight in Lords of Silence:
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Jun 8, 2020 22:41
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The scale of the Imperium allows for nice things to exist in it, as the minority. It's pretty dumb to argue that it's always awful everywhere at all times since that's just boring bad writing. There are probably still cool places inside the Eye of Terror itself, but like elsewhere, it becomes a poo poo show whenever a Chaos warband visits. Everywhere in the Eye of Terror is cool. Except the Daemoculaba.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:45
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Telsa Cola posted:Which is funny because Mars has a huge hard on for necron tech. Well, they entirely backtracked (probably Alan Bligh led) on the sub-story of ‘Is Ferrus Manus actually The Dragon, playing the ultimate long con?’ probably because it would have totally affected the upcoming Horus Heresy books. It was a cute idea, but definitely got shot in the head as a plot.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:07
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 Not whats actually represented in the books and not actually correct since not all agri-worlds are for crop growing. Also as someone said likely not the most honest POV lol. Edit: If you want I can find one of the 100 million text excerpts proclaiming the nobility, elegance and class of spacemarines and then we can then all ignore the dozens of chapters that don't fit that bill. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 23:16
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Speaking of Rogue Traders, one detail I like is that in some cases being made a Rogue Trader is basically done to political rivals or military officers that might be regarded as becoming a little too successful and popular - since it's nominally an honour, you can't exactly refuse, so go get a ship and fly off into the great unknown where you can't bother anyone on Terra or Necromunda or wherever it is in the Imperium proper they want you gone from, where you will probably die.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:41
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abrosheen posted:I definitely don't know who that is. The only rogue trader I've read about personally is the one from Eisenhorn. He's one of the main characters of the Forges Of Mars trilogy, a Rogue Trader whose real goal is to finally get the hell out of the galaxy so he can explore without the yoke of the Imperium at all.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:45
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Speaking of Ferrus Manus, what's his/his legions deal anyway? I don't think I've ever even read anything with him or any of his guys in it. Afaik he's just the primarch so lovely lorgar managed to dunk on him so hard he died without even having an epic battle.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:05
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Sextro posted:Speaking of Ferrus Manus, what's his/his legions deal anyway? I don't think I've ever even read anything with him or any of his guys in it. Weird liquid metal hands and cybernetics. Legion speciality is crippling body dysmorphia to the point that the marines basically try to be as cyborged up as possible. This results in them barely have any emotion (besides hate and self loathing) and warp signature. They are also brutal as gently caress as a result of their self hatred and lack of emotion. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 00:10
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Telsa Cola posted:Weird liquid metal hands and cybernetics. Legion speciality is crippling body dysmorphia to the point that the marines basically try to be as cyborged up as possible. Any good books?
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Jun 9, 2020 00:13
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Sextro posted:Any good books? Imo not really but Wrath of Iron is one that showcases them being huge assholes fairly well.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:22
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Sextro posted:Speaking of Ferrus Manus, what's his/his legions deal anyway? I don't think I've ever even read anything with him or any of his guys in it. Ferrus Manus was decapitated by Fulgrim. Beforehand they were gay BFFs and Ferrus's death was what tipped Fulgrim into daemonhood. The Iron Hands are my baby boys. Before the heresy they were all about straightforward, efficient warfare and had ties to the Mechanicus. They used bionics to improve themselves but Ferrus intended to break his legion of their reliance on augmentation before his death. Post heresy the Iron Hands blame themselves for their Primarch's death, but they also blame humanity as a whole for the weakness of emotion that lead the rage that kept Manus from retreating from his death. These are expressed by body dysmorphia that they try to cure by replacing body parts with bionics and a casual disregard for the lives of their allies respectively. The chapter is ruled by the Iron Council, made up of marines that have been elected on called Iron Fathers. Each Iron Father receives techmarine training but returns to their original rank with their new title when they're finished. The Iron Council also includes representatives from Mars, as they still have extremely close ties to the Mechanicus. They elect their chapter master by vote in times of crisis, and are currently led by Kardan Stronos. If you'd like to know more, try reading Wrath of Iron and the currently released two thirds of the Iron Hands trilogy, The Voice of Mars and The Eye of Medusa. Iron Hands and their successors are repressed LGBT+ AF but in a different way than the Dark Angels Improbable Lobster fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 00:24
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Telsa Cola posted:Imo not really but Wrath of Iron is one that showcases them being huge assholes fairly well. Eye of Medusa and Voice of Mars are both quite good imho but I'm biased
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Jun 9, 2020 00:26
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:To be fair, even the nice worlds are by definition under the grip of a facist theocracy. It just varies how that's expressed. Not really. The nicest worlds are mostly forgotten by the Imperium and aren't under that grip. That's why they end up on purge lists when they take hold again.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:50
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I'm pretty sure we just had this discussion in another thread... The 40k universe is at it's heart satire. The Imperium of man ruins everything it touches through it's own stupidity stubbornness, and short-sightedness. The tagline is literally "In The Grim Darkness Of The Far Future is Only War", everything in the setting leads to war, even the things that appear good and nice. Resource Worlds are all mined/farmed/exploited until they are wastelands. Hivewords are overcrowded cesspits full of uneducated masses competing for scraps while a small number of corrupt elites lord over their excess. Paradise worlds are full of slaves who's only purpose is to serve the privileged guests who visit. Starships are crewed by thousands of disposable crewmembers who die by the hundreds in every battle. And if there by some reason is someplace that is not a horribly corrupt shithole, it gets devoured by an alien horde, a chaos warband or exterminata'd by a pissy inquisitor. Eisenhorn went to some places that seemed ok, that's because he's an inquisitor with near limitless resources, just like the super wealthy in the real world who don't understand what it's like to be poor. Everyplace is lovely by design of a bunch of British 80's gamer punks who really loved Judge Dread and 2000AD comics and really hated the government of the time. The only good guys in 40k are the Orks, not because they are benevolent, but because they don't lie to themselves about who they are.
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Jun 9, 2020 01:51
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^^^^ And the reason Eisenhorn and Ravenor end up on those "nice" worlds is there's someone doing something heretical on all of them. Telsa Cola posted:
Also this is what the most commonly referred to meat livestock look like. It's comparable in size to an elephant.
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Jun 9, 2020 01:56
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Nice planets only exist for a character to tragically hail from
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Jun 9, 2020 02:14
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Improbable Lobster quoted my own post I was going to quote about Agri-worlds. Somebody else posted the 15 hours excerpt. While they are both called Agri-worlds in their respective book they are not the same thing. An Agri-world is an official designation and largely follows the hellish template Wraight laid out in Lords of Silence. They are carefully managed for maximum production. The world in 15 Hours gets referred to as an Agri-world, but would be more rightly termed an agrarian world. They do exist, and they are quite nice but they are few and far between. Their main tithe is not mass produced mono-culture grain but things like guard regiments. There is probably some overlap here with planets designated feudal world's. Basically just low tech planets. Someone also mentioned a livestock Agri-world, which I believe was from one of the Ravenor books. It actually sounds like poo poo when you read about it and the book talks about how it has also suffered from heartless exploitation when it goes into detail about how the livestock used to be like brontosaurus massive but now are closer to Auroch size because they are never allowed to mature before being slaughtered. It's also said the planet and/or herd genetics (or some factor I can't remember) means they only have a few generations before they are no longer able to produce enough and traders will stop coming and the people will be left to rot. The sheer size of the Imperium means there are (relatively) good planets, but they really aren't that common. Yes, there is a bias effect because there typically isn't a reason to show those places in the books we get but they aren't as common as a few in this thread seem to think. Hive cities are without exception shitholes so I am not sure where somebody got that idea.
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Jun 9, 2020 04:05
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I always liked in the oldest Codexes, like the 2nd Ed Tyranids one, there were items on the map that basically are Space Cthulhu or whatever. Like, some Crusade rocks up to a world, finds out the whole world is just one alien monstrosity, or hegemonising swarm, or just a civilisation straight up so high tech it murders the Imperials casually and isn't interested in chasing, and all that happens eventually is the Inquisition turns up, they erect 'Here Be Dragons' signs and just pretend they never saw it. Space is big, there's room for some fuckups. Like, the setting allows for the fact that somewhere there's a Dyson Sphere floating about, and after obliterating some Imperial ships, they just pretend it never happened, murder everyone who knew about it and hope it never comes back.
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Jun 9, 2020 04:53
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Shockeh posted:I always liked in the oldest Codexes, like the 2nd Ed Tyranids one, there were items on the map that basically are Space Cthulhu or whatever. Look at Murder. Imperium found it, Interex showed up and was like "What the gently caress are you idiots doing?!" and they never went back because it loving sucked so hard.
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Jun 9, 2020 04:55
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A better argument would be that the agri-world planet designation is wider than the monoscape hell people have been saying it is, given that all the designation means is that the planet is mostly devoted to agriculture of some kind. Again, Tanith was an canonly a agri-world and you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the verdant forest world was an ecological poo poo hole. The agrarian world designation seems kind stupid given that the world is still devoted to agricultural purposes and population density would be relatively low for dedicated guard raising. Feudal and Civilized designated planets are what you would want to go for since they are relatively self contained planets with decent population densities and growth. If you can actually point to a planet in canon with that designation that would be great. I will concede the Flint (The world in ravenor) argument though after checking the book again. D-Pad posted:
This is basically my argument though I would argue (like you suggest with the bias effect) there are quite a bit more than are shown. Its absurd to assert that no good planets exist when they have been repeatedly shown to exist, even if rare/uncommon. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 05:13
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That was cool little world I liked it alot and the Interx interaction was cool too Wonder what happened to those guys
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Jun 9, 2020 05:13
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