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NihilCredo posted:I haven't read the Horus Heresy snippet being alluded to, but the only way I can see it making any sense would be if DAOT humanity had used their godlike tech to build a clone of the Sol system, perhaps after some catastrophe befell the original. And it would still be a huge stretch to describe that as "making any sense". It's been over a decade since I read the first HH novels, but are people referring to the opening battle in Horus Rising ("I was there when Horus slew the Emperor") and the psyker calling himself 'The Emperor' rules a world that believes it's the centre of humanity? Because that would just be a standard non-compliant world in 40k
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Jun 15, 2020 16:19
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moths posted:There's a strong case to be made that our Earth, Dark Future, Chainsaw Warrior, Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, and then AoS all take place in the same universe. Shame on you for forgetting Event Horizon and the DooM series.
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Jun 15, 2020 16:58
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moths posted:There's a strong case to be made that our Earth, Dark Future, Chainsaw Warrior, Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, and then AoS all take place in the same universe. I always thought the prevailing fan theory is that Sigmar was one of the unknown primarchs.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:02
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The "Sigmar is a Primarch!" thing doesn't actually work because Sigmar was a regular guy who built the empire, befriended dwarfs, killed orcs, and then went away. There's no mention of him being nine feet tall or having superhuman physiology, he was just a cool guy. Later he was deified as a household god of the Empire, and then AoS, uh, escalated that somewhat. Plus we know that the two redacted primarchs were known at some point, which rules out that one landed in a different game that was never discovered. The other big support was the Chaos gods lore books, where a seer in the Fantasy setting gets crazy revelations and visions from both settings. The common assumption is that the 40k stuff is the future, but it only makes sense if it's the past. (Because Slaanesh is around, for example.)
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Jun 15, 2020 17:27
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SerCypher posted:I always thought the prevailing fan theory is that Sigmar was one of the unknown primarchs. The biggest problem with the "WFB is an isolated planet in 40k" is just how much is on that one planet. Mutants, chaos, vampires, zombies, medieval eldar, etc. If the inquisition ever came across it they'd order the entire sector destroyed. Interesting theory about it being the END of 40k though. That does fit a lot better and Sigmar could then be a missing primarch, a reborn Emperor, etc EDIT - good point about the missing primarchs being known to the others. Scratch that moths posted:
That's probably just GW power creeping again. I remember the early 40k having the Emperor and the primarchs as normal sized (in an utterly jacked fantasy sense) guys Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jun 15, 2020 |
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Jun 15, 2020 17:29
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WHFB was obviously meant to be revealed as part of the wider 40k universe at some point, but I guess wiser heads at GW (read: coked up) decided against it at some point.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:30
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Might not have been planned, I think it was probably some writers head canon and people enjoyed Easter eggs hinting at it. I can't imagine ever actually thinking it's a good idea to do it officially but the writers used to have a much more relaxed attitude to canon a la 2000AD where poo poo that makes no sense exists alongside semi-hard sci-fi because different writers wanted to tell very different stories in the same 'universe'.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:41
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We always seem to forget that 40k was a joke that got way the gently caress out of hand. It was literally "lol what if D&D in space?" and then they all did some 80s-grade coke and woke up in a basement with lead poisoning, a bunch of miniature orcs with guns and a load of John Blanche drawings and thought "can we sell this?". Much like the Imperium, nobody really remembers how all this started. Just that there's now complete and utter insanity treated as normality and everyone keeps adding more to it and if you speak out you get burnt to death Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jun 15, 2020 |
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Jun 15, 2020 17:50
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MrNemo posted:Might not have been planned, I think it was probably some writers head canon and people enjoyed Easter eggs hinting at it. Oh definitely, I love that laid-back approach from the early days and it seems like they put plenty of Easter eggs in hinting that the timeline was switched - like the "space slaan" poster in the old FB buildings set. I doubt they'll ever ever officially connect them, but it's a fun thing to think about.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:56
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Dog_Meat posted:The biggest problem with the "WFB is an isolated planet in 40k" is just how much is on that one planet. Mutants, chaos, vampires, zombies, medieval eldar, etc. If the inquisition ever came across it they'd order the entire sector destroyed. I could see it as some sort of flotsam planet. Somehow you can't get to it normally through the warp. Any ship's that get too close get dashed on the rocks and deposited. So you could have ancient refugees from all these races. On a side note being the end of 40k, I was sort of depressed by the end of the Old World, because unlike 40k it was a more hopeful universe. Technology was advancing, humankind was friends with the Dorfs and the Elves. Sigmar's faith wasn't as destructive as the Emperors and allowed other gods to fill the gaps in theology.
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Jun 15, 2020 18:31
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The end times, as stupid as they were, revealed that Warhammer operates on multiverse theory and cycles of death and rebirth. So they are connected through the Warp, but as abstract realities separate from one another.
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Jun 15, 2020 18:43
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moths posted:The "Sigmar is a Primarch!" thing doesn't actually work because Sigmar was a regular guy who built the empire, befriended dwarfs, killed orcs, and then went away.
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Jun 15, 2020 19:27
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moths posted:
After Slaanesh was born, it has always existed in every time. ~the warp~
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Jun 16, 2020 09:25
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Oh no, that's the dumbest thing in the lore. It also gave rise to a dumber thing where Bobby G using the Emperor's Sword to kill Abadon's sword Drach'nyen would retroactively win the heresy. Because of Warp omnipresence, if the spirit of the first murder dies it would get snuffed out across all time, and wouldn't be there 10,000 years ago when it mattered. BoLS did a whole piece on it and it's mostly a strong case for GW leaking blurry photos again.
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Jun 16, 2020 12:44
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....haven't a whole bunch of demons been given a true death throughout the series without weird timeline bullshit occuring?
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Jun 16, 2020 12:47
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Telsa Cola posted:....haven't a whole bunch of demons been given a true death throughout the series without weird timeline bullshit occuring? A demon here and there, sure. The spirit of the very first murder ? No.
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Jun 16, 2020 12:52
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The Chaos gods exist outside of time so Slaanesh existing says zero about when WFB takes place wrt the 40k setting.
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Jun 16, 2020 12:59
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hopterque posted:After Slaanesh was born, it has always existed in every time. ~the warp~ This. There were absolutely servants of the Prince(ss) of Pleasure before the Eldar got their murderfuck on hard enough to collapse the hedonism waveform into Slaanesh.
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Jun 16, 2020 13:03
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It's like if you took all the sloppy storytelling of time travel and then made it worse with magic swords erasing the setting's pivotal event.
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Jun 16, 2020 13:03
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moths posted:It's like if you took all the sloppy storytelling of time travel and then made it worse with magic swords erasing the setting's pivotal event. And creating a whole new setting to profit off of.
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Jun 16, 2020 14:41
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The theory I heard around the tables at my FLGS (of blessed memory) was that Fantasy was a planet on the edge of the Eye of Terror. The idea of Sigmar-as-Primarch is more difficult because we know that he had an literal mother (Griselda). But, when dealing with royalty there's always the possibility King Björn was more into dudes (or bears) and the story was cooked up after they found him, Kal El style?  E: Of course, it's also possible we're doing a Mythopoeic thing and Björn/Griselda are just metaphors? Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 16, 2020 |
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Jun 16, 2020 14:42
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NihilCredo posted:Close - they were three Soviet toy rockets. But their survival only requires that our Earth existed at some point in the 40k timeline; it doesn't need it to have become Holy Terra. i always kinda of assumed the Sol system got moved in the golden age from the old sol area to a better spot. idk the alterted earth names was because Mad max happened for like 7 thousand years and knowledge on terra was burned away.
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Jun 16, 2020 14:57
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It's possible there are a lot of "Earths" out there which got seeded during the DAoT and think they're actually Terra. Dune has the Panoplia Propheticus thing where a lot of stuff gets written into primitive folk lore (in this case to protect Bene Gesserit but it's entirely possible there's something similar going on with these "Earths").
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Jun 16, 2020 15:11
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The Alpha Legion is definitely the funniest. I'm reading Scars again by Wraight and it's hilarious how annoyed everyone is to fight them. Multiple Space Wolves comment on how unfun it is, nobody knows what side they are on, even themselves, they use fake battlebarges, they say nothing in combat or while dying until the very end, where they throw out a "for the emperor" and just piss everyone off again. It's even better when you get to the 40k books and the alpha legion is just clowning on chapters with elaborate plots that just wipe them out.
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Jun 16, 2020 16:40
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Relevant Tangent posted:This. There were absolutely servants of the Prince(ss) of Pleasure before the Eldar got their murderfuck on hard enough to collapse the hedonism waveform into Slaanesh. It's fun to look at the current ynnarri and work backwards with that idea. Before slaneshs true birth there were probably disciples and an avatar running around within eldar society.
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Jun 16, 2020 17:20
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mllaneza posted:A demon here and there, sure. The spirit of the very first murder ? No. There have definitely been demons that have been fairly plot relevant whose true death should have caused some timeline shenanigans though.
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Jun 16, 2020 18:20
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Telsa Cola posted:There have definitely been demons that have been fairly plot relevant whose true death should have caused some timeline shenanigans though. You're still thinking linear time when demons aren't bound to such things. Like AT ALL.
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Jun 17, 2020 06:41
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MariusLecter posted:You're still thinking linear time when demons aren't bound to such things. Like AT ALL. The argument presented by the theory/ that article is that since demons exist at all times simultaneously then the true death of the first murder demon in the future would ripple back and kill them in the past, thus eliminating a key player in the heresy, possibly preventing it and other butterfly effect poo poo. No? Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 08:13
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If a warp entity exists before it is born, there’s no reason it should stop existing after it is killed. Still constrained by that linear time thinking.
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Jun 17, 2020 09:09
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moths posted:Oh no, that's the dumbest thing in the lore. That's a dumb theory that, to me nukes a central point from master of mankind big E couldn't destroy the echo of the first murder when they met in the webway & could only possess one of his own custodians with drach'nyen because He can't kill what is destined to finally lay him low, that one demon being able to rebuff the Emperor, a being who (arguable depending on how you look at it) was able to hoodwink the whole pantheon of chaos god's seems ridiculous to me it's been a while since I read MoM but I have a vague memory that He even says something to that effect. Girlyman being able to use one of dad's swords to reverse the entire HH 10,000 years after the fact is one hell of a stretch. The BoLs article author even references MoM but doesn't seem to understand how timey wimey poo poo "works" in uh, thistimey wimey sci-fi? Its complete bollocks. GW have been telegraphing that Abaddon & his sword would finally do the deed for sometime now. They just can't decide on when it gets done, I.e. how many books(&rulebooks/codexes/tabletop editions) before they pull the trigger.
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Jun 17, 2020 10:04
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Speaking of timeywimey stuff. Which book had the Dark Angels deploy a secret armory of Dark Age of Technology weapons the Big E only trusted The Lion and his legion with? One of them fired bolt shells that erased people with warp magic? Like the Dark Angel who fired on some guys had a vague recollection that he had just fired on some people but I guess they get a whopping hit of dejavu every time or something. Think it's also the same work where they bust out that the 1st Legion is 'The Final Solution'.
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Jun 17, 2020 13:37
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What if E didn't snuff Drach'nyen because He knew He was going to be stuck on the golden throne some how and someone was going to come and kill him with Drach'nyen in the future. The Emperor is a perpetual. Abaddon finally gathers enough power make it down to the inner palace and kills the Emperor which makes all hell breaks loose (new edition) then one day in the Imperium's darkest hour when chaos is about to destroy the last of the Imperial forces and maybe Guilliman dies, Russ and Valdor burst out of the warp with the newly reborn Emperor in tow. (new edition)
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Jun 17, 2020 13:43
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Telsa Cola posted:The argument presented by the theory/ that article is that since demons exist at all times simultaneously then the true death of the first murder demon in the future would ripple back and kill them in the past, thus eliminating a key player in the heresy, possibly preventing it and other butterfly effect poo poo. No? It’s paradox because by virtue of the first murder happening in the first place is proof it cannot be killed in the future and retroactively not happen Because it would have never happened in the first place It’s occurrence at all means it either cannot be destroyed in the future or it’s destruction doesn’t change its occurring.
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Jun 17, 2020 13:54
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MariusLecter posted:Speaking of timeywimey stuff. It was the Lion's primarch book, Lord of the First
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Jun 17, 2020 14:02
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Noblesse Obliged posted:It’s paradox because by virtue of the first murder happening in the first place is proof it cannot be killed in the future and retroactively not happen I mean the warp doesnt give a poo poo about a paradoxes but the point I am making (poorly) is that other demons have been given true deaths and we havent seen any evidence that weird timeline poo poo actually occurs, leading me to believe the theory is bullshit. The article basically forgets that true death is not a new concept in the series. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 16:47
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Demons are an emotional echo of an event, giving them true death doesn't rewrite time just stops them from acting. The first murder created the demon but doesn't actually have anything to do with the demon. Plus there's probably a demon of the first murder for eldar running around somewhere too. As the one in master of mankind was implied to be a specifically human centric murder demon.
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Jun 17, 2020 16:59
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Yes fair enough the murder would happen but the demon wouldn’t have been created and so the demon sword would never have existed to be destroyed in the first place.
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Jun 17, 2020 17:17
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Noblesse Obliged posted:Yes fair enough the murder would happen but the demon wouldn’t have been created and so the demon sword would never have existed to be destroyed in the first place. Abbadon would just have a real neat sword
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Jun 17, 2020 18:51
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Improbable Lobster posted:Abbadon would just have a real neat sword “Funny. I swear this sword used to talk to me about saving money on my car insurance”
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Jun 17, 2020 21:30
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Zasze posted:Demons are an emotional echo of an event, giving them true death doesn't rewrite time just stops them from acting. The first murder created the demon but doesn't actually have anything to do with the demon. Another thing to keep in mind is the demon's title "The End of Empires". The Custodes nearly killed it in the beginning (or AdMech, I forget which), but it gave the "Emperor of Mankind" all kinds of trouble. Demons are symbolic, more than anything else.
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Jun 17, 2020 21:45
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