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Mat Cauthon posted:The Olver/Gaidal thing really feels like another one of those plot lines where RJ got spooked by so many people figuring it out and expecting it to happen that he pulled a switcheroo instead. Possibly but rhe timelines just don't add up.
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Jun 20, 2020 02:30
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IIRC the definitive evidence that he's not Gaidal is that we've already met Olver by the time Birgitte mentions that Gaidal's been missing from Telaranrhiod for a while, so he must've been spun out, right? And that's fairly early on - book 4? So unless time in the dream world is much wackier than we can discern from the books, it can't be Olver. Which is fine, how it played out isn't a mark against the ending IMO. Shame we'll never get a follow-up about Olver Hornsounder though.
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Jun 20, 2020 02:39
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Isn't it said that gaidol is always younger than Birgitte. And it ended up that way even though it seemed weird to Birgitte when she was in the dream. Almost like it was willed by the wheel to work that way. At least that's how I read it. Edit: I thought we met him when he was young a bit after she said he was spun out. So it doesn't quite line up but I thought it was the dream time shenanigans. And gaidol always seems to be a shadow early in the books and so maybe he's not fully in the dream. Artonos fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 02:45
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Gaidol is always older than Birgitte. Gaidol being spun out into the pattern meant that Birgitte was due to be spun out soon, but she was kicked out instead for not sticking to the precepts. The reason we don't see Gaidol at all in Tel'aran'rhiod is because he does stick to the precepts.
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Jun 20, 2020 03:41
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Ahhhh you're right. I've only read through once and am not quite as sharp on some of the details. But that kind of does explain why it lines up with my interpretation that it isn't spelled out completely but olver is still gaidol. Just not spelled out to the characters that we follow.
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Jun 20, 2020 04:07
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bell jar posted:Gaidol is always older than Birgitte. Gaidol being spun out into the pattern meant that Birgitte was due to be spun out soon, but she was kicked out instead for not sticking to the precepts. The reason we don't see Gaidol at all in Tel'aran'rhiod is because he does stick to the precepts. We do see Gaidal Cain once in TAR, not to mention seeing him the first time the Horn was blown. Both of which have to have happened after Olver's birth given the timeline of the series being around two years and Olver being older than that. This means that it is impossible for Olver to ever have been intended to be Cain without some major time fuckery that was never hinted at, and which is completely contradicted by the text. quote:“You’re the heroine of a hundred tales,” Nynaeve said. “And I saw what your arrows did at Falme. Seanchan channeling did not touch you. Birgitte, we face near a dozen of the Black Ajah. And one of the Forsaken as well, it seems. We could use your help.”
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Jun 20, 2020 09:52
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Gnoman posted:We do see Gaidal Cain once in TAR, not to mention seeing him the first time the Horn was blown. Both of which have to have happened after Olver's birth given the timeline of the series being around two years and Olver being older than that. This means that it is impossible for Olver to ever have been intended to be Cain without some major time fuckery that was never hinted at, and which is completely contradicted by the text. quote:..for the grave is no bar to my call. I don't see why life would bar the call either.
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Jun 20, 2020 17:56
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shirunei posted:I don't see why life would bar the call either. Because the soul is already spun out. Can't be in two places at once. ONE YEAR LATER posted:Because Rand wasn't summoned when the horn was blown at Falme. .... that
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Jun 20, 2020 18:16
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Because Rand wasn't summoned when the horn was blown at Falme.
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Jun 20, 2020 18:17
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I always figured that the Dragon being bound to the Horn was something that could backfire if the Forsaken ever stopped being bumblers. Surely Ishamael of all people could find a way to use it to either keep the Dragon from being spun out or remove him from the Pattern completely. I do wonder what it looks like for Rand, since he has some new powers by the end. Probably safe to assume he's not functionally immortal, since that would cause some issues. Also is the Dragon always male in every incarnation?
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Jun 20, 2020 18:59
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I thought in the last book one of the heroes of the horn says just because the horn summons them doesn't mean they have to fight for whomever blows it, if a darkfriend blew it horn they wouldn't fight for the shadow. e:. Wait I misread what you were saying, but did I misremember what I posted? It's been a number of years since I read the last few books.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:10
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I thought in the last book one of the heroes of the horn says just because the horn summons them doesn't mean they have to fight for whomever blows it, if a darkfriend blew it horn they wouldn't fight for the shadow. Yeah that was a vicious rumor, disproven by the heroes themselves. Maybe by Artur himself, I forget who.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:25
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No you're correct, they won't fight for the Shadow. But Hawkwing himself says that the Shadow forces know how to harm them, incapacitate them, or force them back into the dream, so good thing that the Horn was effectively safeguarded all those years of the binding. Also heroes can refuse to be bound to the Horn apparently, which is an interesting development.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:25
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Mat Cauthon posted:I always figured that the Dragon being bound to the Horn was something that could backfire if the Forsaken ever stopped being bumblers. Surely Ishamael of all people could find a way to use it to either keep the Dragon from being spun out or remove him from the Pattern completely. Which reinforces my theory that it is completely impossible to remove a soul from the Wheel/weaving. You can burn a soul out of the Pattern, but it'll just come back the next time it's called upon by the Wheel. Doesn't seem like you can do much with just the Horn of Valere--whether or not a Hero is spun out is dependent entirely upon the Wheel, which is not really something you can touch with any Power (consider that a lot of Wheel/weaving-related things are unaffected by One Power or True Power. Ta'veren-ness, Heroes of the Horn.) You can steal it and prevent it from being used at key moments.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:31
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Invalid Validation posted:Remember borderlanders are the only ones who have fought Trollocs in centuries. Most people don’t think they’re real. They're obliquely mentioned a bunch of times, but it's in passing almost every time. RJ/Sanderson had plans to flush out the storyline a little bit more, but figured things were bloated enough and it ruined the surprise. It works very well on a reread when you're actively looking for them Edit: wow, I was behind a while
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Jun 20, 2020 19:35
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I think the Sharan would have been better if he would have introduced them with a Domandred point of view a book or two earlier. But when it is thrown into the last book it’s really jarring.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:51
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They...were introduced at least once or twice, and mentioned a number of times, but I guess you mean seen in numbers? I honestly don't think they would have been seen like that before the end even had Jordan not died.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:54
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It even fits well with the "Demandred is not Taim" situation, since in the scene where Graendal is shown to have a pair of Sharan rulers as pets (and gives the most detailed description of their society so far), it's implied that she's working with Demandred.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:59
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He was quite menacing for a forsaken, I wish we would have seen him more. Him just wanting nothing more than to kill Lews Therin is a pretty good motivation. I bet he also looked rad as hell in a golden coin armor suit.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:21
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Vavrek posted:It even fits well with the "Demandred is not Taim" situation, since in the scene where Graendal is shown to have a pair of Sharan rulers as pets (and gives the most detailed description of their society so far), it's implied that she's working with Demandred. Yeah, the major Forsaken coalition was Graendal, Semirhage, Demandred, and Mesaana. Though they didn't spend much time together (such as the sequences of Graendal manipulating the poo poo out of Rahvin, or Lanfear dragging Asmodean into the Waste) every so often, aside from their usual tea socials, you'd get a POV of one of them doing something for one of the others. Graendal's collection of Sharan rulers, in retrospect, fits that pattern very well.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:22
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Noo, Graendal had aligned (in some fashion) with Sammael. It was the other three that worked together.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:04
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silvergoose posted:Noo, Graendal had aligned (in some fashion) with Sammael. It was the other three that worked together. Yeah to correct my post, Graendal was screwing with Sammael, not Rahvin. And she is not strictly speaking in Semirhage, Demandred, and Mesaana's group. I suppose my post really is down to the fact that she was one of the remaining loose Forsaken that had not been balefired or mindtrapped or whatever, and so she was available for the general Forsaken socials.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:44
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silvergoose posted:Noo, Graendal had aligned (in some fashion) with Sammael. It was the other three that worked together. From Lord of Chaos, chapter 6: [Sammael POV; 'she' is Graendal, 'he' Sammael] quote:She stared at him, gathering herself, eyes glittering with enmity. Finally she said, “Little enough.” She would not forget that he had seen her lose control. None of her anger came out in her voice; her tone was smooth, even offhand. “Semirhage missed the last gathering; I don’t know why, and I do not think Mesaana or Demandred does either. Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it. She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said the same every time. She was sure Be’lal would kill or capture him in Tear; she was very proud of that trap. Demandred warns you to be careful.” Graendal either wants an alliance with Sammael, or wants Sammael to think she does, to whatever depth of recursive plotting, but that's a side deal for her from also being associated with the other three. edit: VVV Ahh. Some day, I plan on going through the series and keeping notes on everybody, looking up characters as I go, that sort of thing. That day is not this day. Vavrek fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 21:49
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Vavrek posted:Graendal either wants an alliance with Sammael, or wants Sammael to think she does, to whatever depth of recursive plotting, but that's a side deal for her from also being associated with the other three. Yeah, but she was not "deep in their council" or whatever at that point, for example she didn't actually know where Mesaana was working. Later on she may have ingratiated herself into that group, but I think at that point she was the only loose unaligned Forsaken so probably decided strength in numbers.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:53
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She was at the gathering and the two others there were a little confused and annoyed that she was, wasn't it?
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Jun 20, 2020 21:56
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silvergoose posted:She was at the gathering and the two others there were a little confused and annoyed that she was, wasn't it? My impression is that Demandred sent her some Outlook meeting invites.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:01
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I distinctly recall Moridin saying "I've let you listen to this meeting" as some kind of favor.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:15
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Well I guess it was nice chatting about my favorite piece of fiction with y'all.
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Jun 24, 2020 12:33
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silvergoose posted:Well I guess it was nice chatting about my favorite piece of fiction with y'all. My first message board experience was actually a Wheel of Time fan site, wotmania. I posted there waaaaay back in high school. It shut down years ago, some of the posters there started a new site, readandfindout.com, but it never really took off. I had moved on to SA by then anyways. I actually discovered this site thanks to a photoshop with an SA watermark somebody had linked in their profile on that site. Apparently readandfindout is still around, but looks like it gets next to no traffic.
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Jun 24, 2020 13:22
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Eh! Frank posted:My first message board experience was actually a Wheel of Time fan site, wotmania. I posted there waaaaay back in high school. It shut down years ago, some of the posters there started a new site, readandfindout.com, but it never really took off. I had moved on to SA by then anyways. I actually discovered this site thanks to a photoshop with an SA watermark somebody had linked in their profile on that site. Same basically.
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Jun 24, 2020 13:42
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My first internet community was alt.fan.robert.jordan. And the Wheel of Time grinds on.
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Jun 24, 2020 13:53
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silvergoose posted:Well I guess it was nice chatting about my favorite piece of fiction with y'all. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the wheel of shitposting. But it was *an* ending.
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Jun 24, 2020 14:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We do already have a Book Barn discord, here's a link:
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Jun 24, 2020 15:46
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Man every one of my regular read threads is like people on a sinking ship with no lifeboats Anyway before we all go under the waves let me just say one thing: gently caress Gawyn
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Jun 24, 2020 17:43
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The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass.
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Jun 24, 2020 17:46
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Just to keep regular chronological forums discussion going while there's still a place to do so on the internet; Apparently the TV show is resuming filming late July / early August, according to some casting calls. Hope poorly paid extras don't get the corona because of this, but I'm eager to get a trailer or some such out of this, maybe this year still. I imagine the first trailer will tell us a lot about how they're approaching the book split.
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Jun 24, 2020 18:44
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bloom posted:Anyway before we all go under the waves let me just say one thing: gently caress Gawyn
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Jun 24, 2020 18:51
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quote:And the Shadow fell upon the land, and the world was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Lowtax.
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Jun 24, 2020 19:29
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Just to keep regular chronological forums discussion going while there's still a place to do so on the internet; They're filming in Europe, a place that is taking corona seriously, so they're probably safer than most of us in the US.
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Jun 24, 2020 19:34
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Is there any good fantasy books with characters like Mat?
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Jun 24, 2020 19:45
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