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BFC posted:I genuinely feel like the majority of extra bad stuff that has happened in chainsaw man is on account of Makima messing up and she is, good or bad, the antagonist. Who knows how much was planned but The Control Devil ultimately being a toxic influence on Denji's self-actualization just makes sense. Like, a consistent theme is intimacy and having someone who is used to manipulating everyone to their whims being most interested in the person who has the most resistance doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for a genuinely healthy dynamic. I'd argue that someone with mind control powers would have the healthiest dynamics with someone she couldn't control. Sure, it's nowhere near healthy (Denji's a minor, she's his boss, she murdered his last girlfriend...), but he's one of the only people who can have an actual relationship with her rather than just fear and control. And you stepped right onto a thing that's been interesting about Denji's relationship with Makima. She's been his main contact for his character growth, and it hasn't just been in directions that directly benefit her. Denji at the start of the series wouldn't have turned down a trip to Enoshima to look after Power. It could be similar to the perfect puppet stuff... but Makima seems to like that Denji is independent. Right now, the cleanest fit for her actions is that she wants Denji to grow to a well rounded person. She even tends to introduce her little bits of life advice with phrases like "probably" and "in my experience", leaving room for doubt and revision later on. It's... interesting. NickRoweFillea posted:Change the thread title to Chainsaw Man: Under no circumstances does “the future rule” I'm sorry, but I won't change the thread title to a lie.
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Jul 13, 2020 09:00
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I'm guessing that even if Makima doesn't have the ability to directly control Denji, that she is actually legit good at controlling people through regular, old-fashioned manipulation. She tends to show up to interact with Denji whenever he's at his most uncertain or confused- I wouldn't say that she has said anything patently untrue (if anything what she says is pretty nice/helpful- about how bad experiences are just part of experiencing new things, movies being able to change your life, etc) but she definitely tries to keep him on rails. Also, I can't believe I didn't think about this but it's incredibly obvious: Makima cannot control Denji's heart, because Pochita is his heart. Her chains when she goes full control mode seem to attach to her thrall's hearts. Also checked the first chapter for fun- I think here is when Makima realizes she cannot command Denji: 
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Jul 13, 2020 13:36
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Makima has clearly been a villain since she killed Reze, who by the standards for this series, did nothing wrong.
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Jul 13, 2020 16:54
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Man, there are some top flight wacky assassins in this comic. Tarantino should be envious.
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Jul 13, 2020 17:02
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Fabricated posted:
Makes sense, Makima hasn't demonstrated the ability to control hybrids thus far. Barring Denji, she's either murdered or captured every hybrid that's been encountered and they haven't resurfaced as brainwashed minions. Raises the question about how Aki escaped since he's a Fiend and not a hybrid
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Jul 13, 2020 17:11
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yum posted:Makes sense, Makima hasn't demonstrated the ability to control hybrids thus far. Barring Denji, she's either murdered or captured every hybrid that's been encountered and they haven't resurfaced as brainwashed minions. Yup, he definitely escaped, and this is definitely not Makima field-testing the Chainsaw Devil for a rematch against the Gun Devil. That's definitely what's happening here.
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Jul 13, 2020 17:18
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Darth Walrus posted:Yup, he definitely escaped, and this is definitely not Makima field-testing the Chainsaw Devil for a rematch against the Gun Devil. That's definitely what's happening here. Well, Makima also wasn't able to control the Darkness devil so perhaps her ability is limited to things weaker than her. This would mean that a defeated 20% Gun Fiend, who diluted its powers by becoming a fiend, is stronger than Makima. Or maybe there was outside influence from a rival country that let it escape, since we've noted that Makima kind of just rolls with things
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Jul 13, 2020 17:38
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yum posted:Well, Makima also wasn't able to control the Darkness devil so perhaps her ability is limited to things weaker than her. This would mean that a defeated 20% Gun Fiend, who diluted its powers by becoming a fiend, is stronger than Makima. Or maybe there was outside influence from a rival country that let it escape, since we've noted that Makima kind of just rolls with things I'm suggesting she was lying, and that whatever fragment of the Gun Devil she squeezed into Aki's corpse is entirely under her control.
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Jul 13, 2020 17:42
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Caught up now. MY THIS IS CERTAINLY QUITE THE RIDE.
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Jul 13, 2020 18:14
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Is anyone else wondering now why this is set in 1997?
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Jul 13, 2020 18:22
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I Am Fowl posted:Is anyone else wondering now why this is set in 1997? I'm not reading TOO much into it, it could just be 20-year-nostalgia since that's a common nostalgia cycle, but also could be set in that time period so it's relatively modern but there's no smart phones tying everything together. Although it may be more important than that, who knows
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Jul 13, 2020 18:53
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It's set two years before Phantom Menace released and the whole manga so far is a set up to prevent the time line where the Star Wars prequels come out
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Jul 13, 2020 19:18
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HenryEx posted:It's set two years before Phantom Menace released and the whole manga so far is a set up to prevent the time line where the Star Wars prequels come out
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Jul 13, 2020 19:22
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Fabricated posted:There is a non-zero chance this is true Reminder that a big plot point in Fire Punch is that someone wanted civilization to get to the point they could finish making star wars sequels, so I'd actually put this at 50/50
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Jul 13, 2020 19:44
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Halloween 1999 is when EP1 is officially canceled.
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Jul 13, 2020 19:48
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chiasaur11 posted:I'd argue that someone with mind control powers would have the healthiest dynamics with someone she couldn't control. This is a plot point in the comic series Mind MGMT by Matt Kindt which is about secret psychic organizations going to war. One of the main characters has a backstory where he's such a powerful psychic that his subconscious constantly biases everyone towards him. Obviously this leaves him completely unable to trust anyone's motivations, including his own wife and child.
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Jul 13, 2020 20:54
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Fabricated posted:Also checked the first chapter for fun- I think here is when Makima realizes she cannot command Denji: I thought so too. The really interesting bit is the next panel, when we see Makima's response to knowing there's a powerful devil of some kind who she can't control. After the shock, I mean. She's smiling, with her eyes closed, looking happier and more at peace than we see at almost any other time.
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Jul 13, 2020 23:43
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Re-reading because of you guys posting these old panels and just confirming this manga rules.
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Jul 14, 2020 00:43
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Darth Walrus posted:I'm suggesting she was lying, and that whatever fragment of the Gun Devil she squeezed into Aki's corpse is entirely under her control. I don't think she's lying. Makima doesn't lie to Denji much. Omitting details, though? That she has less issue with. Just in this chapter, she obviously omitted the reason it'd come to his door. Flat out no response when Denji asked. So, figuring out what happened isn't a matter of assuming Makima lied. It's focusing on what she skipped over that happened in those missing five seconds. Her lines: 1) "The Gun Devil appeared without warning". So far so good. 2) "We failed to defeat it". Which probably means she didn't take it down and hijack it, because, as mentioned, Makima doesn't tend to lie to Denji. I'd also think that a controlled Gun Devil would be more useful than just giving Denji more field testing. 3) "It took over a dead body and got away". Now here is the interesting detail skipping. Obviously she didn't mention the body it took... but we also know that fiends are weaker than pure devils, and that they get influenced by their hosts. And Aki is such a useful body for that. Makima knows how Aki thinks, has some leverage over him, and he's fresh enough that his memories are going to be strong enough to do something. Which makes him perfect bait. In other words, I don't think that she just no-difficulty'd Gun. (Her fight with Darkness shows she's nowhere near the strongest thing in the setting). It seems more like she's playing very dirty to down it while maybe getting Denji some on the job training in the bargain. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 01:51
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atrus50 posted:Give DEATH FRENZY a try. it's totally humorless but it's pretty influential for most of these gorepunk cartoonists, and it's a scathing takedown of facism on some salo type beat https://mangadex.org/title/3273/shigurui I just gotta say I burned through this in a day and what a ride. This is really really top notch gut wrenching leaving you with thoughts stuff. I def would recommend it if you have the stomach for it.
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Jul 14, 2020 02:13
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maybe makima wanted to help aki get some cool new arms
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Jul 14, 2020 03:04
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Maybe Makima is grooming Denji to kill her because no one else can and she is sick of dealing with poo poo on earth?
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Jul 14, 2020 04:34
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Hamelekim posted:Maybe Makima is grooming Denji to kill her because no one else can and she is sick of dealing with poo poo on earth? Counterargument: Earth has movies.
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Jul 14, 2020 04:53
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On reread the Kishibe line about working with Makima as long as "is on humanitys" side makes a lot more sense, and Makimas stated goal is to "save humanity from devil's".
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Jul 14, 2020 04:54
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Credit to Fujimoto as I am still racking my brain for a way that this can all work out in the end. I haven’t done that for characters in a long time.
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Jul 14, 2020 06:06
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Jerkface posted:On reread the Kishibe line about working with Makima as long as "is on humanitys" side makes a lot more sense, and Makimas stated goal is to "save humanity from devil's". Kinda wondering if her ideal situation at this point isn't just one where devils continue to exist and do their thing to just such a degree that "humanity" (not literally every single human [tho who knows!!!], but essentially world powers) has to rely on her and thus assent to her being their superior, while still keeping devils and specifically the worst of them under control if not directly under her thumb. I can definitely see why she would view the Gun devil as especially important to sideline: by its nature it kills a ridiculous amount of people and as such lessens the reach of her control.
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Jul 14, 2020 06:17
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I mean Makima's not even the head of public security. I don't think that's really restraining her or anything but I don't think "I want to control humanity!!" is really her goal when she's not even in charge of her place of work.
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Jul 14, 2020 06:25
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I thought at first that she might just be using her lower position as cover but I think it's just that she is ultimately the one calling the shots and doesn't really care about what rank she's called. Alternatively, there are more powerful people higher up? Either way, I think Makima can't control all devils and only humans, therefore the more humans make contracts with devils the more power she gets. Hell, it's entirely possible she made the organization from the ground up just so she'd have ammo in... whatever it is she ultimately wants to do. Gwen fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 07:50
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Makima is just trying to complete the pokedex
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Jul 14, 2020 12:28
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Well if Makima is really the control or domination devil, then couldnt one of her goals be working with humanity to weaken/defeat all the other devils, such that she is powerful enough to control all of them? And you know she has her whole thing where if Div 4 does good she gets more power within the human hierarchy. I think so far we can figure that her mind control poo poo doesnt work on humans or hybrids, but does work on fiends & devils (if they are weak). edit: Just got back to the part where Chainsaw rides beam like a horse 
Jerkface fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 17:22
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Makima's powers work on humans and dead humans. They also work on devils. Therefore, they can probably work on fiends too! My guess Makima's plan to save humanity is to turn everyone into her ideal Denji, unthinking and obedient. A mankind without fear can be free of devils!
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Jul 14, 2020 17:35
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Denji is described in chapter 1 who always does what he's told. Is this whole series about a young man finding his independence and choosing to say no to people? The demon stuff is all....uh.......fluff?
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Jul 14, 2020 17:35
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Hypocrisy posted:Makima's powers work on humans and dead humans. They also work on devils. Therefore, they can probably work on fiends too! I don't think they work on humans the way she can work on devils and fiends. She straight up commands Angel in his home town. She clearly has control over Power and the other fiends, but can't get the same obedience from humans. Aki had to agree to give her everything.
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Jul 14, 2020 17:39
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Jerkface posted:I don't think they work on humans the way she can work on devils and fiends. She straight up commands Angel in his home town. She clearly has control over Power and the other fiends, but can't get the same obedience from humans. Aki had to agree to give her everything. Makima ordered Aki to accept that contract. He did not do it of his free will.
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Jul 14, 2020 18:42
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Hypocrisy posted:Makima ordered Aki to accept that contract. He did not do it of his free will. Literally right before that he says he will give all of himself for any contract. Thats inconclusive to me. How can he be ordered to do something that he just said he'd do?
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Jul 14, 2020 18:44
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Jerkface posted:Literally right before that he says he will give all of himself for any contract. Thats inconclusive to me. How can he be ordered to do something that he just said he'd do? he said he'd do anything, which is a normal thing for someone to say in desperate circumstances. makima then compelled him to agree to a contract with her it was strongly implied in the same chapter that he only felt any sort of loyalty for her in the first place due to her influence as the control devil
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Jul 14, 2020 18:58
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Oxxidation posted:he said he'd do anything, which is a normal thing for someone to say in desperate circumstances. makima then compelled him to agree to a contract with her I agree its compelling (get it ha ha), but with the fiends we are shown very clear makima orders->they react panels, including Angel falling down on command instantaneously. There is a flashback cut between makima ordering Aki and him accepting, as well as some interesting close up panels of his eyes.
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Jul 14, 2020 19:11
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Jerkface posted:I don't think they work on humans the way she can work on devils and fiends. She straight up commands Angel in his home town. She clearly has control over Power and the other fiends, but can't get the same obedience from humans. Aki had to agree to give her everything. Not necessarily. She commanded him to agree, and he did. Offering your everything vocally seems to be similar to making a contract with a devil - it's some "rule" that must be honored. She couldn't just forcibly take his everything, but she can (and did) force him to offer everything. She didn't need his permission to force him to say that or anything.
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Jul 14, 2020 19:20
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Ordering Aki also released Angel, so she clearly used her power and whatever conditions it has.
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Jul 14, 2020 20:32
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atrus50 posted:Give DEATH FRENZY a try. it's totally humorless but it's pretty influential for most of these gorepunk cartoonists, and it's a scathing takedown of facism on some salo type beat https://mangadex.org/title/3273/shigurui This was a brutal read, dang.
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Jul 14, 2020 20:42
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