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Shinjobi posted:I remember the first time I heard about pixie whatever girl what with Garden State, and then it came back around the time of 500 Days of Summer, and the big issue I have with it is that the phrase in its original meaning was an attack on the writer. That the concept of the quirky perfect girl for whatever the plot demanded main character needed was lazy. I mean, in 500 Days of Summer the whole trope is kinda...bitterly destroyed, but even then I remember others using the term pixie girl instead as a criticism of the actress or character? Used the same language to miss the point entirely. The problem I have is largely claiming that using these terms at all is a sexist slur (which is a for-real banworthy activity on these forums so that's a significantly more serious accusation, especially when a mod is agreeing that it is sexist.) The bulk of these terms tend to be a shorthand criticism of shallow or lazy writing and criticism thereof. The simple terms tend to quickly and effectively communicate ideas and the fact that some people misuse them is going to be unavoidable because it happens with any terms people use. (See stuff like 'safe space' or 'trigger warning' for most blatant examples.) Trying to claim that people uses these terms are engaging in sexist slurs is a goddamn serious claim, especially because those terms are frequently used in a number of spaces on the regular. (And yes, lovely terms are used in a lot of places on the regular, but I mean places where sexist slurs are 100% not accepted in even the most barest sense. I know places that ban the word Mary Sue which still use Fridging.) "Fridging" for good or ill has come to convey a very easily understood idea and it has been applied outside of just female characters. I was having a discussion literally earlier about how gay love interests tend to be killed off for the dual purpose of a cheap easy motivation and to have diversity without actually having to write a gay couple in a romantic pairing. You can do it without using that term but the term has become a quick and effective shorthand for a universally understood idea and to claim everyone using it is actually being sexist and using slurs rather than communicating in a commonly understood language is not something I think is really fair. It's fine if you, personally, dislike the term, but to ascribe slur-usage to everyone using them regardless of the circumstances is entirely a step too far for me.
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Jul 18, 2020 00:21
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TBF the gundam thread is the perfect place to discuss misogyny in anime
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Jul 18, 2020 00:34
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Stairmaster posted:TBF the gundam thread is the perfect place to discuss misogyny in anime I mean I can't deny that.
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Jul 18, 2020 00:41
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Stairmaster posted:TBF the gundam thread is the perfect place to discuss misogyny in anime At first glance I was going to say this whole discourse was a bit much and then I remembered the entirety of Gundam but also Victory.
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Jul 18, 2020 00:48
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Shinjobi posted:At first glance I was going to say this whole discourse was a bit much and then I remembered the entirety of Gundam but also Victory. "Gundam Wing has one of the most well-rounded and respected group of women in the entirety of Gundam" is absolutely a phrase you can unironically say which I think says a lot.
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Jul 18, 2020 00:52
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Yeah, that was my bad saying there aren't terms to describe men, though I would say a lot of the ones that go beyond casual descriptors still suck. I think you misinterpreted my post. I didn't claim the term "fridging" was a sexist slur, I was saying that the framework that is used to employ the term is inherently one based on the concept of being able to reduce the worth of a character down to a plot device in service of other characters, which is removing any possible nuance or agency a character may have, even minor. Applying that sort of mentality I was also intending to point out that its original use was strictly with regards to female characters, and not the equivalent male characters. I do appreciate you pointing out that the term does receive wider use than just in reference to female characters, though you don't often hear it described as such. I just think the term "fridging" is a reductionist way of looking at characters that isn't very useful except to try to smear the character and the writer of that character.
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Jul 18, 2020 01:37
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I mean it seems fair to me to use a reductionist term if the character actually is just a thinly written nothing character that only exists to get murdered and provide pathos for the male character that the story is about. Like I don't know if it's warranted in this particular example but the idea that all characters inherently need to be respected by the audience seems weird, some characters are just poorly written stereotypes or vehicles for delivery of clichéd and lazy storytelling.
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Jul 18, 2020 01:47
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Julias posted:I think you misinterpreted my post. I didn't claim the term "fridging" was a sexist slur, I was saying that the framework that is used to employ the term is inherently one based on the concept of being able to reduce the worth of a character down to a plot device in service of other characters, which is removing any possible nuance or agency a character may have, even minor. Applying that sort of mentality I was also intending to point out that its original use was strictly with regards to female characters, and not the equivalent male characters. I do appreciate you pointing out that the term does receive wider use than just in reference to female characters, though you don't often hear it described as such. Well, you didn't but Endorph did.
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Jul 18, 2020 01:52
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Julias posted:I just think the term "fridging" is a reductionist way of looking at characters that isn't very useful except to try to smear the character and the writer of that character. I can understand that but I think it's less to smear and more to point out the inherent flaw in such a thing. Inevitably a character's death is going to motivate a character because it is one of the driving motivating forces behind a lot of human action. That doesn't mean the character can't feel like a character instead of a Plot Point basically. Usually when fridging comes up it's trying to reference the idea that a character exists *just* for that and otherwise has the barest minimum development to them as a person. I admit I'm not watching Re:Rises because the idea of having to watch Build Divers first makes me want to jam a knife in my thigh, but I think it's the difference between say Ple dying versus Lu Anon dying. Ple dies in a tragic way that serves to motivate people but it also involves her own characterization and choices, whereas Lu Anon appears for two episodes to be tragic and waifish and then dies entirely to motivate the male lead. That doesn't necessarily mean Ple is a good character but she is a character who is rounded and exists on her own merits, whereas Gundam as a whole has a problem with characters who exist largely for the latter. (Though AGE is the worst at it.) It's a thin line to walk because "this character died" isn't inherently bad writing as many characters are motivated by people's deaths. Gun x Sword for example is pretty much entirely about a dude motivated by his wife's death. Gun x Sword handles it well though by making that a central point of his character and sprinkling bits of information about his wife and her own life throughout the series, which makes her feel less like a plot device to make Van super angry and more like he genuinely lost someone special to him. In comparison Mayu from SEED Destiny has no personality and no existence beyond Shin looking at a cell phone and being sad. She died so Shin had a reason to look at a cell phone and be sad and no effort was given to make her anything more, and that feels like a genuine waste. (Especially since the show tries to compare her to Stella but Stella is a borderline insane human weapon who acts like an infant when she isn't stabbing people to death so any comparison between the two is hard to draw.) There's also the similar problem of well-rounded and interesting characters being killed off just to motivate someone else and Gundam can be pretty bad about this. Even if a character's death is a necessary tragedy it's very possible to feel it devalues them as a character. A big neon example here is Marida Cruz where people will disagree heavily on if her death ruined a good character or was a necessary tragedy, which also kind of emphasizes that not everyone is going to agree on every issue. But I do think it's fair to point out that Gundam as a whole has a serious issue with killing characters instead of dealing with consequences that might be difficult and due to the nature of how Gundam handles archetypes that falls very often on its female cast. Honestly if it is a criticism on a writer I think a big part of it is criticism for being unwilling to come up with something more interesting. I admit I am a big fan of redeeming villains for example and I really hate the trope of "this person redeems themselves and then dies instantly" because I think it is a lazy writing shortcut to avoid having to deal with the actual consequences of someone who did terrible things having to come to terms with it. Gundam as a franchise has a bad habit of going for the safe and easy path and while individual versions of that might be good stories, the more often it is repeated the more often it feels like it devalues the characters and the story. A war story isn't going to be able to avoid deaths that motivate people but it hits so much harder if those deaths are characters instead of cell phones. Julias posted:I think you misinterpreted my post. I didn't claim the term "fridging" was a sexist slur, Ier. You didn't, I'm sorry. I was more referring to the other conversation in this case. I didn't mean to mix them. Edit: Also I am probably blabbing overly much, I apologize. I'm trying to keep my brain distracted from RL stuff and am taking that out via longwinded dumb typing. I apologize. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 02:12
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ImpAtom posted:Edit: Also I am probably blabbing overly much, I apologize. I'm trying to keep my brain distracted from RL stuff and am taking that out via longwinded dumb typing. I apologize. Oh, I don't mind reading a bunch of words as long as they're meaningful. I thought your posts were helpful, and I appreciated them. Thanks.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:28
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ImpAtom posted:"Gundam Wing has one of the most well-rounded and respected group of women in the entirety of Gundam" is absolutely a phrase you can unironically say which I think says a lot. I'd argue Turn A and G-Reco are probably better, but yeah.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:30
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Turn-A is probably the best with it's female characters. Lily, for example, is clearly a better diplomat and politician than Guin and the show goes out of it's way to point that out. Off the top of my head, Lily is able repeatedly negotiate with and be taken seriously by various Moon factions while Guin is there to be set dressing.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:37
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:I mean it seems fair to me to use a reductionist term if the character actually is just a thinly written nothing character that only exists to get murdered and provide pathos for the male character that the story is about. Like I don't know if it's warranted in this particular example but the idea that all characters inherently need to be respected by the audience seems weird, some characters are just poorly written stereotypes or vehicles for delivery of clichéd and lazy storytelling. Eve's problems come from literally being Sarah dialed to 11; She exists to be fawned over by Hiroto, never interacts with anyone else, and her character design is intended to make her the focus of any scene she's in, with explosive amounts of bright blonde hair and a massive frilly dress (that's fundamentally a fancier version of Sarah's outfit) standing next to Hiroto's darker colour palette and simpler clothing (ie; every scene she's in). Even in that one frame where she's in the audience of a tournament, she sticks out like a sore thumb. Her personality is also only two notes; Gunpla (Hiroto by association), and Sarah. The latter just falls flat because it presumes to place her importance ahead of Sarah's from a plot standpoint for Sarah's own show, and the former is just rehashing Sarah as a character verbatim with lots of flowery language about how happy You'll notice that we've never once referred to May the same way, despite being a literal doll in the real world; It's anchored in the dumb concept from the last show, and her frilly doll dresses make sense on their own merit because have you met her guardian?  In GBN her fashion choices are much more suited to her character's preferences; Simple and practical for a wide range of movement, with a muted colour palette that still follows a design style similar to Sarah's while being wholly her own. She's a practical person, and a capable fighter, with an independent streak a mile wide learning to interact with others for the first time.Hinata's also got similar trappings to Eve in that she's a fairly Hiroto-focused character from the point of the audience. The difference for her is it's grounded in the way she treats him gently out of being a long-time friend who's well aware he's got some kind of GBN-centric trauma, even if she doesn't know what it is, and wants to help him just be happy on his own terms. She also has a life of her own outside of Hiroto with archery as a hobby, interacting with Hiroto's parents, and her own circle of friends.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:40
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Stairmaster posted:TBF the gundam thread is the perfect place to discuss misogyny in anime I think it was bound to come to this sooner or later. When I explain Gundam to people, I have to explain that for every good take it has on war, trauma, the environment, and sometimes even capitalism, there's a big stinking garbage pile where it handles women, and not in the typical anime style of gratuitous panty shots and groping. (Which is the whole reason I often claim Gundam is the only anime I like, as somewhat hyperbolic as that might be.) Something used above was pointing out how characterizations like "a Char" exists, and I think these are distinct from tropes against women like fridging and the MPDG. There's something to be said both for "Char" being an archtype that other traits are hung upon, as well as how such classifications are viewed when applied to male characters vs female characters. I think there is something to be said for the fact that women bare the brunt of negative character tropes that reduce their worth. But I think that is the evidence of systemic sexism in writing, not evidence that the words used to identify a particular sexist action are slurs. We've been working on this poo poo for over ten years now (Tropes vs. Women is as relevant today as it was in 2011). MonsieurChoc posted:I'd argue Turn A and G-Reco are probably better, but yeah. Turn A for sure, but I'm not so sure about G-Reco. Aida and Raraiya are not exactly given a rosy treatment (though I think this is only really apparent through errata that talks about the intent of the writers). I do remember specifically Aida baring the brunt of some negative effects in the plot because she slept with her superior officer off-screen, as explained by one of the writers.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:55
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Eve's problems come from literally being Sarah dialed to 11; She exists to be fawned over by Hiroto, never interacts with anyone else, and her character design is intended to make her the focus of any scene she's in, with explosive amounts of bright blonde hair and a massive frilly dress (that's fundamentally a fancier version of Sarah's outfit) standing next to Hiroto's darker colour palette and simpler clothing (ie; every scene she's in). Even in that one frame where she's in the audience of a tournament, she sticks out like a sore thumb. Her personality is also only two notes; Gunpla (Hiroto by association), and Sarah. The latter just falls flat because it presumes to place her importance ahead of Sarah's from a plot standpoint for Sarah's own show, and the former is just rehashing Sarah as a character verbatim with lots of flowery language about how happy In fact, I think we've seen more of Hinata interacting with people who are not Hiroto recently than we've seen of the opposite. She's exploring what is happening with Masaki in the real world through her interacting with his sister. Her existance is not dependent on Hiroto in the narrative. As a thought experiment, swap Hiroto for Kazami and reexamine their relationship. Would Hinata have to be altered to maintain her role as a character? Probably not. Would Eve, on the other hand, have to be changed? Almost certainly. While on the subject of Kazami, compare his relationship with Maiya vs Hiroto's relationship with Eve. Maiya very clearly exists independent of Kazami. She shows us much about the daily life of the Eldorans, gives them personality. She has motivations (keeping the kids and Stola out of trouble, taking care of the farm, etc) and a life outside her interactions with Kazami and the Build DiVERS in general. Eve does not have motivations, nor does she interact with anyone other than Hiroto. There's a level of dependence on Hiroto that Eve has and Hinata or Maiya do not. edit: I suppose a useful litmus test would be to erase the male character from the plot and check of the female character continues to have a role. Maiya? Yes. Hinata? Yes. Eve? No. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 03:07
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Eve also has basically nothing to say but "I love GBN" like she's the Mr. Burns alien or something.
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Jul 18, 2020 04:03
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On the topic of Gundam and how it treats it's female cast members, I'd say G Gundam does it surprisingly well
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Jul 18, 2020 04:31
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Well, aside from the time poor Rain always gets gut slammed into unconsciousness....
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Jul 18, 2020 04:42
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its cool when rain gets in the goop
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Jul 18, 2020 04:43
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drrockso20 posted:On the topic of Gundam and how it treats it's female cast members, I'd say G Gundam does it surprisingly well Eh. Pretty much every single female character is defined by "Is (x's) girlfriend" and while some come off better than others they're still largely that. Rain is a good character but also has the weird thing where she's kidnapped and trapped naked inside of the main enemy who is more powerful entirely because she has a womb. Besides Rain you have Allenby whose plot arc revolves almost entirely around being brainwashed and mind controlled or lusting after Domon. It's certainly not the worst thing ever and characters can still be cool in that situation, but it is very much a Manly Men Have Manly Feelings show.
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Jul 18, 2020 04:43
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yeah i really can't say G is particularly inspiring in how it handles the barely handful of female characters it even has. it's beyond the level of regularly indulging early UC "lol the women can't fly gundams!" or having them exist to die like Zeta, but i think the bar should be higher when we do have actual good examples in the franchise
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Jul 18, 2020 04:50
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I'm a huge Allenby stan, and even I'll admit she is not handled well in the grand scheme of things. Rain, while being a 3-dimensional character, is still primarily there to make Domon open up about his feelings and grow as a man, which is a point we've already worked over hard. Together, they pretty much exist to push Domon along. In fact, I'm pretty sure Allenby qualifies as a static character, because she doesn't actually change in any meaningful way throughout the Finals arc. And then there's Rain being used as a biological CPU within a metal vagina to symbolize that only women could give life and 
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Jul 18, 2020 05:25
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This would put Gundam X straight in the middle.
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Jul 18, 2020 06:11
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It's really hosed up how they went out of their way to give nobel Gundam hair but then didn't match it with it's pilot's.
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Jul 18, 2020 06:48
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Noble Gundam is basically Sailor Moon but a Gundam and I'm okay with it. Just startes rewatching 0083 now and it's animation is amazing, the music is great, but knowing that Nina and Gato dated but she still didn't realize he was the one stealing a Gundam is hard to miss for me.
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Jul 18, 2020 06:52
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There are other sailor scouts it could have been...
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Jul 18, 2020 06:53
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Noble Gundam is in this weird place as a design cause it's in an uneasy middle ground between the Mobile Suit girls art (that lead to the Galaxy Fraueline Yuna games/anime) and designs like Virtual On's Fei-yen and doesn't really stand out cause of it.
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Jul 18, 2020 06:59
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As a swede I must insist you all refer to it by its proper name: Nobell Gundam.
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Jul 18, 2020 07:11
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Stairmaster posted:There are other sailor scouts it could have been... Like Sailor Venus, the one it's clearly based on?
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Jul 18, 2020 07:48
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I can't stress this enough, gently caress Monsha.
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Jul 18, 2020 08:03
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ImpAtom posted:It's a thin line to walk because "this character died" isn't inherently bad writing as many characters are motivated by people's deaths. Gun x Sword for example is pretty much entirely about a dude motivated by his wife's death. Gun x Sword handles it well though by making that a central point of his character and sprinkling bits of information about his wife and her own life throughout the series, which makes her feel less like a plot device to make Van super angry and more like he genuinely lost someone special to him. Thank you very much for this example, ImpAtom; It helped me get a clearer perspective on what I think about Hiroto and Eve. The show has been clear from the start that Eve is permanently gone, we just didn't know why or how it happened. I think it's an important distinction that the show didn't kill her off all of a sudden, and that Hiroto only talking about it now has probably been planned from the start. Hiroto's actions and motivations stem from losing someone he really cared about, and how he had no idea how to process that trauma. In the first episode, Hinata and one of Hiroto's classmates pointed out that he used to be an open person who would participate in group activities. But Hiroto starts the show being closed off to others, partly from depression and partly because he doesn't have anyone to talk to who might be able to understand. It's the specific combination of becoming closer with the rest of the ReRise crew, finding out that May's an El-Diver, and finding out that the Eldorans are real people that helped Hiroto be able to open up about what happened. He was finally able to find other people who could understand him when he explains that Eve wasn't just some AI, but someone special to him that he lost long ago. And while the flashbacks to Eve in season 1 were kinda cheesy, Eve asking Hiroto if he loves GBN and her treating it as a real world does fit in with Re:Rise's themes. It complements May's explanation of her perspective that she considers GBN to be her actual world, and thinks of Earth and Eldora as alien worlds.
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Jul 18, 2020 09:20
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Turn-A is probably the best with it's female characters. Lily, for example, is clearly a better diplomat and politician than Guin and the show goes out of it's way to point that out. Off the top of my head, Lily is able repeatedly negotiate with and be taken seriously by various Moon factions while Guin is there to be set dressing. I don't know about that. Lily is certainly better as a diplomat in the second half of the show, but she exists mostly to hang off Guin where she does exist in the first half and Guin himself is the more capable diplomat at the time. He was the one who did all the initial leg work of talking to the Moonrace before the show starts, for instance, and helms peace talks from the Earth side several times during the first half; including de-escalating things when tension rises. He's also walking a fine line between peace talks and intimidation tactics, leaving Sochie, Yanny etc. off the leash and clearly intentionally making sure he doesn't know their exact plans but tacitly approving of their harrying of the Moonrace so it lets the Moonrace know that the Amerians have some martial strength and won't just roll over and submit if the Moonrace push a bit harder. Whether that's good or not is up to the viewer, but it's clearly what he's doing regardless. Even in the second half though, Guin does successfully ally himself with Gym, after he realizes that Dianna will never give him access to the technology that he wants (i.e. the Turns), convincing Gym to help his cause, just after Dianna has angered Gym by ordering him to turn over the Turn X. That's the one time he's successful with Gym though, and every subsequent interaction goes increasingly badly for him. I think it's more that Guin had unreasonable goals, and constantly overestimated his reach, while Lily mostly fell in line with Dianna and co. about what the goals should be. Neddy Seagoon posted:You'll notice that we've never once referred to May the same way, despite being a literal doll in the real world; It's anchored in the dumb concept from the last show, and her frilly doll dresses make sense on their own merit because have you met her guardian? I'd say the frilly dresses do less to undercut her character in the real world, than the fact she has a different personality and is much more expressive and prone to anger over minor things. It feels incongruous, and was probably only done to push her as a cute character for one episode. Warmachine posted:Turn A for sure, but I'm not so sure about G-Reco. Aida and Raraiya are not exactly given a rosy treatment (though I think this is only really apparent through errata that talks about the intent of the writers). I do remember specifically Aida baring the brunt of some negative effects in the plot because she slept with her superior officer off-screen, as explained by one of the writers. One thing that always stood out for me with Aida is that in the final episodes she is twice confronted by others with a plea that she step up and assume a leadership role as captain, and while she calmly refuses her father over it, she bursts out in to tears when the Donyell has a scene with her about it, seeking comfort in Steer about how she can't do it; and then there's no actual follow up about it, either with her stepping up to take on a role she didn't think she was capable of handling, or of her rejecting the role for some reason that actually sits with her character. She's implied to be captain of the Megafauna in the epilogue, but it just seems weird that we never get a scene of her confirming to herself that she can do it. Instead, Donyell is still captain of the Megafauna during the final battle, while Aida is a pilot in the G-Arcane and I don't even recall her doing anything of significance besides coming in at the end to tell everyone to go home. Warmachine posted:As a thought experiment, swap Hiroto for Kazami and reexamine their relationship. Would Hinata have to be altered to maintain her role as a character? Probably not. Would Eve, on the other hand, have to be changed? Almost certainly. I'd say it's the opposite. If Eve were to be Kazami's love interest, you wouldn't have to change a thing about her, because she's a one note character who exists purely to be nice and say things about Gunpla. Which works just as well with Kazami as with anyone else, so Kazami could be portrayed as just as receptive to it as Hiroto was without it feeling any different. "Works" being a subjective audience thing, obviously. By contrast, Hinata would have to act different around Kazami, because he has a different personality to Hiroto, being much more boisterous, bombastic and extroverted (before or after Hiroto knew Eve, going by recent episodes), so Hinata would have to be talk and act differently, same as you how everyone speaks or acts somewhat differently with different friends. The fact Sarah and Eve are essentially the same character, and it works both with Riku and Hiroto kind of proves that, really. amigolupus posted:In the first episode, Hinata and one of Hiroto's classmates pointed out that he used to be an open person who would participate in group activities. I don't even recall this, but if it is true, then the flashback is ever worse than I'd thought honestly, because Hiroto pre-Eve seems reluctant to participate in group activities without someone pushing him in to it (in the one case we see, Hinata and the Gunpla Base store owner) and we're told Eve was the one who pushed him in to being more receptive to those things, with Hiroto joining Avalon as the example. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 13:14
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Tulalip Tulips posted:I can't stress this enough, gently caress Monsha. Dammit Monsha is the other exclamation.
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Jul 18, 2020 13:53
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tsob posted:I don't even recall this, but if it is true, then the flashback is ever worse than I'd thought honestly, because Hiroto pre-Eve seems reluctant to participate in group activities without someone pushing him in to it (in the one case we see, Hinata and the Gunpla Base store owner) and we're told Eve was the one who pushed him in to being more receptive to those things, with Hiroto joining Avalon as the example. I didn't see that as reluctance, but him feeling awkward because he didn't bring anything to fight with (He straight up says this), until he realizes that he could use the Speed Grade he and Hinata just got. His reason for not entering the tournament was, "I'm running out of ideas [for new Gunpla]." He's obviously more on the creative side, which is evidenced by the planet armors he and Eve ended up designing. If there was reluctance after that, I think it was the awkwardness of transitioning to the virtual game. He didn't seem thrilled about the change over when Hinata asked him about it.
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Jul 18, 2020 17:14
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Jul 18, 2020 19:47
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Now they're just Transformers/Brave franchise rejects
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Jul 18, 2020 19:51
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Deathscythe, Altron, and Barbatos all work pretty well. Unicorn and grandpa... not so much.
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Jul 18, 2020 20:05
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Warmachine posted:Deathscythe, Altron, and Barbatos all work pretty well. I think the Unicorn is fine too. The pupils just really ruin the RX-78
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Jul 18, 2020 20:13
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I like that even the Unicorn's tongue is made of psycoframe. I wonder if that means it's mute in Unicorn mode.
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Jul 18, 2020 20:22
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Blockhouse posted:Now they're just Transformers/Brave franchise rejects No no. They're Iron Leaguers.  (Iron Leaguer is the best stealth Gundam show.)
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Jul 18, 2020 21:08
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