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lanfear kind of actively cast aside her name to use the one we know the most, so she was probably a bit of a special case
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Jul 24, 2020 16:40
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Johnny Joestar posted:lanfear kind of actively cast aside her name to use the one we know the most, so she was probably a bit of a special case She did want a third name - casting aside the others and choosing her own was a reaction to that. If the DO hadn't been Satan, she probably would have gotten one, so maybe you could consider Lanfear an honorary third name.
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Jul 25, 2020 13:34
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A cool thing I noticed on this read relating to an earlier tossed off thing and the big final moment from TGS: Moiraine talks about her experiences in Rhuidean in TFoH and notes that one thing that won't work to control or direct Rand is sleeping with him. At the end of TGS, it's the love he shares with the three that allows him to really become the Dragon. If Moiraine had started sleeping with him, it's pretty unlikely that they'd have been in love or that Rand would've gotten on with the other three. I'd bet good money that was Jordan's plan for a while.
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Jul 27, 2020 05:48
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Prairie Bus posted:A cool thing I noticed on this read relating to an earlier tossed off thing and the big final moment from TGS: I don't think that RJ would have wrote Moiraine sleeping with Rand. that would be strange considering Siuan and Moiraine, as well as possibly Thom and Moiraine? were lovers at the time. rather, I think that was probably just a comment about how much power the love triangle would have over him. if he did, it'd be a "drop the book forever" kind of dealbreaker. related, it really sucks on reread that while Jordan has lesbian relationships in his books, it seems to still be written as bored teenagers experimenting, rather then as bi or lesbian. I wish he did more to explore Siuan and Moiraine's relationship.
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Jul 27, 2020 06:27
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I just reread the shadow rising--one thing that wasn't really clear is how Elaida managed to convince the sitters to depose. Does this come up later? The wiki page for tsr says something like "min going to the tower inadvertently set off a chain of events leading to a tower split. " is this explained more later?
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Jul 27, 2020 08:00
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Ghislaineof YOSPOS posted:I just reread the shadow rising--one thing that wasn't really clear is how Elaida managed to convince the sitters to depose. Does this come up later? The wiki page for tsr says something like "min going to the tower inadvertently set off a chain of events leading to a tower split. " is this explained more later? The mere fact that the Amyrlin is working in secret to prop up The Dragon Reborn is alarming enough, basically. Its like an impeachment trial, she doesn't have to have actually broken any law of the Tower. Also recall that Elaida, inadvertently, went to Alviarin for assistance, which probably tipped the scales when Alviarin was able to forewarn her uh political bloc to play everything to their advantage.
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Jul 27, 2020 08:30
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I always felt it was at least implied, but Masema was definitely being influenced by one of the Forsaken, right? I thought he had been driven insane by his time guarding Paden Faine in Fal Dara
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Jul 27, 2020 08:32
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Some of it was politics. The Red sitters probably didn't need much convincing to pull down an Amyrlin from the Blue Ajah, and install one from their own instead. Alviarin brought about the support of her fellow White sitters. Talene from the Green voted with Elaida because she was secretly from the Black Ajah of course. That's already 7 of the 21 votes, or 18 if the Blue were not allowed to vote. Min's presence made Elaida extra distrustful of all that Siuan claimed, and she uncovered evidence that the Amyrlin knew for a long time about Rand's rebirth. And she obviously has not that much control over the Dragon Reborn at that time. So Elaida likely convinced enough of the other sitters that Siuan was unfit for office. We know from internal monologue that Searin voted for Elaida, and probably the other Black Ajah hunters as well. The sitters sent by the Ajah heads to Salidar to hasten reunification probably voted against Elaida, except probably the White sitter? Since we know from the prologue of Fires of Heaven that Alviarin brought unanimous support from the White. I'll dig down deeper into this later, but I have to got to work now.
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Jul 27, 2020 08:37
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The Glumslinger posted:I thought he had been driven insane by his time guarding Paden Faine in Fal Dara I don't think he was guarding Fain. It was two other guys who's behavior Egwene mentions changing, iirc they get chopped up and used to decorate the walls when Fain is rescued
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Jul 27, 2020 08:42
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The Glumslinger posted:I thought he had been driven insane by his time guarding Paden Faine in Fal Dara As bloom mentioned, those were two other guys. Masema is notable in Fal Dara and on the hunt for the horn for being a constant dick to Rand because he had bad memories of fighting Aiel. I think he was a bit broken and an extremist in his views already, and who knows what he saw when they traveled via portal stone. Then, at the end of that journey, the object of his disdain turns out to be the dragon reborn and fights what appears to be the dark one in the sky over Toman Head. And in the beginning chapters of of TDR Masema is already talking like a cult leader. He is definitely influenced by a female forsaken later one appears to him as The Lord Dragon and tells him to kill Perrin during the whole get-Faile-back-from-the-Shaido sequence and he is also working with known darkfriends Suroth during that time, but I think he comes to power as the prophet all on his own.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:20
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Torrannor posted:Some of it was politics. The Red sitters probably didn't need much convincing to pull down an Amyrlin from the Blue Ajah, and install one from their own instead. Alviarin brought about the support of her fellow White sitters. Talene from the Green voted with Elaida because she was secretly from the Black Ajah of course. That's already 7 of the 21 votes, or 18 if the Blue were not allowed to vote. I thought the sitters had already voted that rand was the dragon reborn and needed white tower guidance, so the whole taim accusation seemed very strange. The other thing my reread reminded me of is that the shadow rising is the best drat book.
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Jul 27, 2020 15:49
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Famethrowa posted:related, it really sucks on reread that while Jordan has lesbian relationships in his books, it seems to still be written as bored teenagers experimenting, rather then as bi or lesbian. I wish he did more to explore Siuan and Moiraine's relationship. That may have been the case with Siuan and Moiraine's relationship, but both he and Sanderson show that there are both gay and lesbian relationships in the world, they just aren't seen as marriages.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:30
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Ghislaineof YOSPOS posted:I thought the sitters had already voted that rand was the dragon reborn and needed white tower guidance, so the whole taim accusation seemed very strange. They weren't wrong: Suian was a power-mad, lovely Amyrlin. Elaida just turned out to be worse. UltraRed posted:That may have been the case with Siuan and Moiraine's relationship, but both he and Sanderson show that there are both gay and lesbian relationships in the world, they just aren't seen as marriages.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:59
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Hold on now, I've read the early books with Moiraine stuff so many times and I myself am as gay as the day is long. Where did they insinuate they had anything other than a friendship? Like what, I can't believe I missed that unless it's just a fan theory.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:18
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At some point she mentions they were pillow friends.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:21
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Hold on now, I've read the early books with Moiraine stuff so many times and I myself am as gay as the day is long. Where did they insinuate they had anything other than a friendship? It comes up mostly in New Spring which launches into a whole explanation of 'Pillow Friends' who are basically Novices/Accepted who start having relationships on the down low. Moiraine and Siuan also sleep together a lot in the book with slight ambiguity over how sexual it is. They're totally dating though and mostly seem to stop when they have to create public distance as Siuan runs for Amyrlin and Moiraine starts the search for Rand. Elaida also throws it in as evidence when Siuan is deposed. Elaida is also called out as having a pillow friend who she had a really messy breakup with. Zore fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 20:23
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Zore posted:Elaida is also called out as having a pillow friend who she had a really messy breakup with. Was this the same one that was assigned to re-seduce Elaida as a spy later?
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Jul 27, 2020 20:27
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Gnoman posted:Was this the same one that was assigned to re-seduce Elaida as a spy later? Yep
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Jul 27, 2020 20:30
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Which is funny since it seemed like a lot of Aes Sedai had “pillow friends” so nobody would bat an eye.
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Jul 27, 2020 21:45
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There's a minor plot point where some Aes Sedai are blackmailing a married Sea Folk woman who wound up in bed with an Aes Sedai. They don't understand why she's so determined to keep it secret, to the point where she was suspected of murder and being a Darkfriend for awhile because she wouldn't talk about where she was, but they're willng to use it against her.
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Jul 27, 2020 22:03
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Gnoman posted:There's a minor plot point where some Aes Sedai are blackmailing a married Sea Folk woman who wound up in bed with an Aes Sedai. They don't understand why she's so determined to keep it secret, to the point where she was suspected of murder and being a Darkfriend for awhile because she wouldn't talk about where she was, but they're willng to use it against her. In that case it wasn’t the sexual preference, but the fact that she cheated and broke an oath to her husband.
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Jul 27, 2020 22:13
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i kinda wish the series handled lgbtq stuff better than weird hush-hush poo poo but i feel like it already has some bigger issues it needs to work out first, lmao or would have. kind of a moot point now, anyways.
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Jul 27, 2020 22:21
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Prairie Bus posted:In that case it wasn’t the sexual preference, but the fact that she cheated and broke an oath to her husband. Yes, that's why she was so ashamed. It still shows that the AS consider pillow-friends to be no big deal even without the "cloistered young women" aspect of novices.
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Jul 27, 2020 22:27
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Gnoman posted:Yes, that's why she was so ashamed. It still shows that the AS consider pillow-friends to be no big deal even without the "cloistered young women" aspect of novices. it seems like Jordan was going for the Aes Sedai having like the classical opinion on same sex relationships: that while they're something young people do, they aren't something that they are in terms of defining your identity as we think of it today, so long as they put them aside when they enter adulthood and behave as expected of them. you can have a pillow friend and it doesn't make you gay, but if you keep up those relationships after you become a full aes sedai, it's obviously looked down on. at least, that's my memory of it, it's disfavored but not like, a thing that gets you arrested or anything -- you might lose some informal political power though. which was pretty progressive considering when jordan was born, who he was, and when these books were first written gay men basically don't exist though lol eke out fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 22:32
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Unless the whole saidin thing was a really oblique metaphor the whole time Rivulet through a midden indeed
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Jul 27, 2020 23:51
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Data Graham posted:Unless the whole saidin thing was a really oblique metaphor the whole time 
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Jul 27, 2020 23:56
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In retrospect they do spend an awful lot of time talking about "the taint."
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Jul 28, 2020 03:06
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That’s true, men are only useful after they cleanse their taint
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Jul 28, 2020 05:43
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Seize saidin (the penis)
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Jul 28, 2020 11:41
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The Forsaken have at least 3 dudes that can't get Rand out of their mind. e: like a republican being obsessed with AOC
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Jul 28, 2020 14:31
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Shageletic posted:The Forsaken have at least 3 dudes that can't get Rand out of their mind. To be fair to Ishamael, eventually it was literal.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:40
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Shageletic posted:The Forsaken have at least 3 dudes that can't get Rand out of their mind. Are you telling me Ben Shapiro is a forsaken?
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Jul 28, 2020 14:47
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RC Cola posted:Are you telling me Ben Shapiro is a forsaken? more of a Jr masema
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Jul 28, 2020 18:01
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RC Cola posted:Are you telling me Ben Shapiro is a forsaken? a forsaken who got compressed under piles of rock the joke is he's short.
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Jul 28, 2020 20:13
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Famethrowa posted:a forsaken who got compressed under piles of rock That would be sammael. Called out in the books, even.
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Jul 28, 2020 20:17
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silvergoose posted:That would be sammael. lol yeah that's right. went to the dark side because he was a manlet.
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Jul 29, 2020 02:23
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Fairly incompetent Nazi nerdlinger, checks out.
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Jul 29, 2020 02:26
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Famethrowa posted:lol yeah that's right. went to the dark side because he was a manlet. Yeah the very direct "and when he realized the Power couldn't make him taller, he started resenting Lews Therin" or whatever it was.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:04
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silvergoose posted:Yeah the very direct "and when he realized the Power couldn't make him taller, he started resenting Lews Therin" or whatever it was. I thought it was more he was second best at everything up to and including being like an inch shorter than Lews Therin. And he was bitterly jealous that he just wasn't good enough in any single area to outshine him
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Jul 29, 2020 03:07
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Zore posted:I thought it was more he was second best at everything up to and including being like an inch shorter than Lews Therin. And he was bitterly jealous that he just wasn't good enough in any single area to outshine him Probably, but I distinctly remember something about "and the Power wasn't enough to get him taller".
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Jul 29, 2020 03:07
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