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To be fair to him, Giorno winning because of a load of confidently stated nonsensical bullshit is pretty much his thing. Why expect a statisfying conclusion after an entire arc of 'actually because of animals I win now, bye'?
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Jul 27, 2020 21:54
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| # ? May 26, 2024 06:18 |
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re: recent events in part 8, tooru listening to his own stand's song breaks my brain more than anything else in this part so far like, who does that
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Jul 27, 2020 22:31
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Crusader posted:re: recent events in part 8, tooru listening to his own stand's song breaks my brain more than anything else in this part so far He's just cementing his villain credentials by doing something despicable. It's classic JoJo.
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Jul 27, 2020 22:35
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CodfishCartographer posted:Don't Rock humans have super long lifespans, or did my brain just invent that? I think they live as long as humans do if you dont count all thier periods of stasis hibernation
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Jul 28, 2020 01:52
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i can't believe poor tom is 89 years old!?
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Jul 28, 2020 01:56
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multijoe posted:To be fair to him, Giorno winning because of a load of confidently stated nonsensical bullshit is pretty much his thing. Why expect a statisfying conclusion after an entire arc of 'actually because of animals I win now, bye'? I disagree and feel that Giorno's wins follow along with his given powers pretty well and I believe that if you look at what he can do and how his powers are defined, you'll find that there isn't as much to the "Giorno's powers are nonsensical and bullshit" argument as you initially thought.
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Jul 28, 2020 06:35
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Kind of but the sheer blinding brilliance of brick snake overshadows the many reasonable and useful applications of his stand (e.g the car frogs)
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Jul 28, 2020 06:44
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Giorno's powers of animation are comparable to Dio's own and I do not think that is on accident given how much Giorno specifically pulls from having 3 parents and inheriting so much from both Dio and Jonathan.
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Jul 28, 2020 07:02
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Pretty much every one of Giorno's fights just end with him revealing an animal did a thing, because its such an open ended power he doesn't ever do anything actually genuinely clever, it's all just 'a snake is a vaccine now', 'a piranha is a chestburster now', 'a different snake is a homing missle now', it's just nonsense.
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Jul 28, 2020 08:37
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In a series where characters use quick thinking and strategy to win fights where even the strongest Stand can be overpowered by a clever rat, a fight ending because the main character gets a power literally no one can beat is pretty boring. Doesn't matter how many times the characters hammered in the point of "Whoever gets the Arrow wins!" it's still out of place and kind of lame.
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Jul 28, 2020 10:32
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multijoe posted:Pretty much every one of Giorno's fights just end with him revealing an animal did a thing No they don't. They do, however, largely end in Giorno having to deal with some kind of self-sacrifice, calling on his roots as the son of Jonathan Joestar. For those that he didn't make some kind of self-sacrifice to end, he made sacrifices along the way knowing well that he may very well end up crippling or killing himself in the process. And even for the fights that do end with animal antics, reducing it down to "an animal did a thing" is overly reductive and is more or less a bad faith argument because it reduces all of his actions down to saying he used his power to do a thing. You can apply that same logic to everything in jojo, be it "a stand did a thing" or "joseph played a trick" or "josuke fixed a thing" or "jotaro punched a thing" and so on and so forth. e: TheLoneStar posted:In a series where characters use quick thinking and strategy to win fights where even the strongest Stand can be overpowered by a clever rat, a fight ending because the main character gets a power literally no one can beat is pretty boring. Doesn't matter how many times the characters hammered in the point of "Whoever gets the Arrow wins!" it's still out of place and kind of lame. This is a legit gripe though since while the ability that manifests from the arrow is the win button of the fight, it suffers from the fact that the fight itself is over getting the arrow so once Giorno gets it, we know he has won but the fight is continuing and while what happens to Diavolo is just absolutely horrifying and interesting, I totally feel why someone would go through that section expecting there to be more of a fight once Giorno gets the arrow and uses it instead of the arrow being the win condition all on its own. In a way, it's almost too appropriate that Giorno's requiem just ends the fight and cuts straight to the consequences and just ignores any potential adventure to reach that ending. FirstAidKite fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 10:52
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multijoe posted:To be fair to him, Giorno winning because of a load of confidently stated nonsensical bullshit is pretty much his thing. Why expect a statisfying conclusion after an entire arc of 'actually because of animals I win now, bye'? Yeah, some of those are a bit out there, but those moments also don't last for entire arcs. Jojo can be stupid, but it's either for comical effect, or just to be cool, the latter of which it usually explains fairly alright. Everything that happens from the moment we start smelling souls, up until Rolling Stones is just dumb. The series where battles are often won through logic and 4D chess not only pulls so much out of its rear end that it becomes impossible to follow, but also doesn't explain the only thing it needed to. How hard would it be to rewrite the "chase" so that the conclusion of "It's a shadow that gives each of us a light therefore its actual placement is unknown" (I may be forgetting some specifics) would come gradually and had explanation? Instead we have a boring villain who screams about a soul and punches an invisible lightbulb. Everything feels like Araki actually wrote himself into a corner. The moments where Mista tries to adjust Trish's underwear and the like don't help. And then we cut to a much better story of all these characters finally spending some time together, which was a breath of fresh air. But enough of that, credits roll. I know many people consider Part 6 to be weaker, and I honestly can't understand why. I don't think anything before or since has been this bad. A few sub-par battles, sure, but not entire climactic arcs where poo poo just happens all around for no reason. Speaking of, can't wait for Part 6 aka best part to be animated 
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Jul 28, 2020 11:54
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FirstAidKite posted:No they don't. The animal did a thing endings suck because they don't have any rules or limitations and almost always feel like asspulls. Like Bruno launching himself and Proscuttio out of the train is a really clever and logical application of his Stand in that situation, as is Josuke's antics on the motorbike or Jotaro pitching Iggy at N'Doul and so on. Gold Experience being a complete Swiss army knife of a power means it never really seems he out-thought his opponent, he just reveals he turned the bullet into a beetle or made a vaccine snake or whatever and the fight is over. Its stuff neither the enemy or viewer could ever see coming and usually completely arbitrary bullshit that only works because of author fiat. And GER is just a bigger version of that with 'animals' replaced by 'reality'. Giorno does have some good scenes where he puts himself out and places his faith in his allies, but they're all fights where he eats poo poo and the focus is on the other members of the cast. Every time he takes centre stage it's pretty much a guarantee that the resolution will be very stupid and feature an entirely new application of Gold Experience's endless capabilities.
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Jul 28, 2020 12:04
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Right, that's my problem with Gold Experience. Every other JoJo power, it feels like they just genuinely thought of a clever application of their stand, and that had you thought about it, you could have come up with it too. But Gold Experience is so vague, you never get the sense of "Giorno could win if he just did X". It's why it's a universal rule that the most interesting stands are the ones with clearly defined rules. "Crazy Diamond can return anything to a previous state but it can't heal Josuke himself or bring things back from the dead" etc.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:07
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A good GE power resolution was at the beginning of the Ghiaccio fight, where Giorno needed the kinetic energy from Mista's bullets to get anything done. That felt like a clever bit for me at least. The biological transformations weren't the win-buttons themselves but allowed him to engage with the enemy stand user a bit better.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:22
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Right, that's my problem with Gold Experience. Every other JoJo power, it feels like they just genuinely thought of a clever application of their stand, and that had you thought about it, you could have come up with it too. Well, that's not exactly true. We had a lot of asspulls and weird resolutions, like Star Finger. Their difference is that they're usually used in a comedic or fairly boring fight. Jotaro sucking in Enya's Justice seem to annoy a lot of people, but honestly, he already won. He did the dumbass "Qtaro" thing, and could've easily just punched an old woman, Araki just thought of a funnier scenario. Hermit Purple is another example. A stand used for one thing that can be achieved via smashing a highly specific camera is a funny gag, but it can only work once. Therefore we get television predictions, maps out of nowhere and self x-ray. Araki didn't forget, he just chose to expand the power and allow it more weird uses. Giorno's power at first suffers from Hermit Purple's everchanging nature, which is much worse because he's the main character. Later on, he's at his best when the fight actually revolves around him. Killing a tree is a pretty cool move, turning cars into frogs is hilarious, and bullet-tree and bullet-beetle are fine. Hell, his best fight is probably against Ghiaccio, because his stand is limited there! He is the loving worst when used as deus ex machina. There are fights that barely involve him, like The Man In The Mirror or Clash and Talking Head, where he basically just comes at the end of someone else's struggle with a miracle solution. It's basically that one thing that Araki hates the most: when someone in a desperate situation is suddenly rescued. He used the trope a few times, sure, but even with the most notable example, Polnareff, characters suddenly coming to help him was a part of his arc. Sure, Giorno is still somewhat nearby and he THINKS of a solution, but it ends up feeling like that one famous tweet: "Well, I'd like to see ol Fugo wriggle his way out of THIS jam! *Giorno comes out from the shadows and wriggles his way out of the jam easily. Ah! Well. Nevertheless,"
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Jul 28, 2020 15:46
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It would be okay if Giorno's use of GE was as consistently loving awesome as that snowboard he made for Mista out of grass, but it's just...not.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:36
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Gold Experience is like King Crimson in that we’re clear on what it does, but the specific rules on how it can be used – things like “how long does it last?” or “can you attack people in deleted time?” or “how much influence can Giorno exert over the life he creates?” never get defined answers and so every time they do something they haven’t done before, it feels like a rules change.
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Jul 28, 2020 18:01
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Unfortunately, the only good thing about Giorno is his theme.
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Jul 28, 2020 18:03
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also that time he drank piss
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Jul 28, 2020 18:05
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So when he turned jellyfish back to tooth does that mean his tooth is full of piss now?
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Jul 28, 2020 18:11
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he's saving it as a memorial
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Jul 28, 2020 18:20
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Gold Experience was just a God stand. Creating life is plainly God poo poo. You either accept that very early or ya don't.
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Jul 28, 2020 18:30
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GE is Hamon: the Stand, that should answer all your questions
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Jul 28, 2020 18:36
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Pootybutt posted:Gold Experience was just a God stand. Creating life is plainly God poo poo. You either accept that very early or ya don't. As befits the Son of DIO
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Jul 29, 2020 09:14
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I, FirstAidKite, have a dream. One day, people will look at Giorno and be able to comfortably say "That's bullshit, but I believe it."
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Jul 29, 2020 18:48
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giorno is cool
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Jul 29, 2020 18:54
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Giorno's fights aren't good enough on their own terms to be fun and Araki doesn't commit enough to 'poo poo this kid really has a huge streak of DIO in him' for his meteoric ascent to the top of the underworld and obtaining ultimate Stand power to be as disquieting as it should. For VA to work you really should see more of the monster lurking in him rather than the painfully earnest and boring character who only really shows any of his true colours in the loving climax of the story.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:03
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Giorno isn't a monster though, he's Jonathan's will and belief in the importance of protecting others and his pure altruism and healing powers of the ripple combined with Dio's charisma, brutality, ambition, and ability to give life to the unliving.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:17
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Part 5, where I learned to stop stressin about the rules and learned to love the [R E S O L V E.]
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Jul 29, 2020 19:42
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Imo, the only weak fight in the whole thing is Babyface, which was arguably better in the manga. I enjoyed the added emphasis on Babyface becoming(and losing bc he was) a shithead teenager stand who tells his "dad" to shut the gently caress up.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:50
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FirstAidKite posted:Giorno isn't a monster though, he's Jonathan's will and belief in the importance of protecting others and his pure altruism and healing powers of the ripple combined with Dio's charisma, brutality, ambition, and ability to give life to the unliving. The story does nothing with most of this and what it does use is barely felt by the audience. Giorno's "resolve" is something pretty much every JoJo has, and his is the most generic in execution.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:51
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I think Giorno would've been a much better and more interesting character if he was shown to be a bit of a monster at times. The only times he's allowed to get really brutal is after araki makes 200% sure that it's totally unambiguous that the victim is a bad person and totally deserves it. I think if there was a little more ambiguity there, like e.g. a tendency to go overboard/over-brutal on the punishment against someone who (maybe) doesn't deserve it, or maybe a hint of megalomania (either current or potential down the road), or anything like that, he'd be a way more interesting jojo. e.g. if araki'd had the stones to replace Ciocolatta with Fugo, and maybe Fugo's conflicted about the fight and doesn't intend for all the collateral damage but Giorno gets angry about the betrayal and keeps pressing him, eventually ending the same way the Ciocolatta fight does. It'd be a lot less cathartic and more like "uh holy poo poo, is Giorno all right? Are the people around him going to be all right?" which would feel like a more appropriate atmosphere to have around a character partly descended from DIO, instead of like two moments where the series goes "LOOK LOOK HE'S DOING THE DIO POSE SON OF DIO" You could probably remove the DIO part of Giorno's character entirely and I'd argue that it wouldn't change a single thing plot or characterwise.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:52
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:You could probably remove the DIO part of Giorno's character entirely and I'd argue that it wouldn't change a single thing plot or characterwise. Exactly. It feels like it's just there because Araki thought it would be fun if the JoJo for the part went MUDAMUDAMUDA, which, fair
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Jul 29, 2020 19:57
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Giorno being DIOs son is treated almost like an Easter egg than an actual character trait. At least that’s how it seemed to me.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:13
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Giorno feels like the most Jonathan-like JoJo since, well, Jonathan, and that isn’t a great thing unfortunately.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:16
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I feel like the comparisons to Jonathan are more incidental than anything you can actually attribute to his lineage. You could describe say Buccialati in the same way and it would be just as relevant. I feel like his more manipulative aspects can be linked to DIO at least, but the whole Jonathan thing has never really felt apt to me. It feels like by the time Jotaro fought him, Araki no longer considered the body at all Jonathan's, and it didn't affect anything he wrote going forward.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:23
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The conclsion to VA is definitely meant to be ambivalent in its tone. Girono literally sentences his enemy to eternal damnation with his newly obtained ultimate power then after Polnareff tells him to cast away the arrow in Mr President for the sake of the world the scene ends with the arrow still in Giorno's hand and his eyes in shadow, before cutting to a ominously silent scene of the dons of Passione paying their fealty to the new king of the underworld with Mista looking on warily. There's a very strong implication he's kept hold of the arrow (and by extension GER) and Giorno may not be the entirely noble and selfless champion of justice he'd previously seemed, or that even if his intentions are pure how long they will remain so after he has seized the power of a god and an international criminal enterprise. The problem is you don't really see any peek into this side of Giorno outside of the opening or the conclusion. Even if he was deliberately decieving the gang we should be seeing glimpses of the potenial megalomaniac his father became in him, but he's continually the very good very polite young man from the time he joins Bruno's crew up until his death, we don't see the cracks in his personality that should be building towards his eventual grasp for power. I guess what I'm saying is Giorno really should have been more like Golden Age Griffith.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:26
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It's funny how common it is to interpet Girono as the Johnathan to Diavolo's Dio when I always read the analogue as the opposite, Giorno being the beautiful Blonde intruder who infiltrates the Boss' station, breaks his poo poo, turns his family against him and ultimately usurps his throne. And GioGio didn't have to murder anyone's pet to do it(unless you count Doppio.)
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Jul 29, 2020 20:45
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| # ? May 26, 2024 06:18 |
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you should count Doppio
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Jul 29, 2020 21:21
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