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LittleBlackCloud posted:What's with so called M-L people who are obsessed with how anyone in the us military can't be radicalized. LittleBlackCloud posted:Anyone who has North Korea in avatar and self identifies as a tankie is a cosplayer. uncop posted:From my exp they're mainly subcultural, ppl grouping up on the internet or in little debate clubs can convince themselves of anything. So far as there's psyops, it's in putting those people on a pedestal and pointing at the like "look, this is what leftists are like!" It would take real skill to believably roleplay one of em as a regular boring person. You know how shallow right-wing attempts to impersonate feminists and so on are.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:28
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Sep 3, 2020 06:28
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the DPRK is not a Chinese puppet. China has allowed the UN sanction North Korea multiple times. They've broken those sanctions at times, but North Korea still faces huge hurdles in trading with the rest of the world. The racial purity stuff is propaganda, the country has a long history of participating in anti-colonial struggles. North Korean pilots were sent to fight in the Yom Kippur War against Israel for example. Even the western outlets admit that North Korea and African nations have close relationships. quote:In Namibia, a country once occupied by Germany then subsequently by neighboring South Africa, Che interviewed a war veteran who said North Koreans trained people like himself in "karate" in the 1970s, when the People's Liberation Army of Namibia, a guerrilla group, was entrenched in an armed struggle for independence. "We will never forget you people," he told Che on camera. Members of the armed wing of the South West Africa People's Organization were sent to Pyongyang to receive military training. When Che probed Namibian veterans off-camera, they said their North Korean instructors were "strong, fast, scary and intimidating." South Africa eventually agreed to end its occupation in 1988, and Namibia and North Korea maintain close relations to this day. That relationship was the driving force behind several North Korean construction projects in the African state, including Heroes' Acre, a war memorial, and the State House of Namibia, with the latter completed in 2008 at a cost of at least $34.2 million. If North Koreans want to call Americans devils, I'm fine with that. The US bombed the country to pieces and is still technically at war.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:29
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yeah if you watch some of these north korean parades where the soldiers are marching up and down the square, you'll see delegates from other countries in the review stands, and there will be delegates from the DPRK's few allies, uganda, syria, etc. they have more relations with other countries than americans would probably suspect. north korea sent a delegate to AMLO's inauguration in mexico. if you play your cards right you can get a ticket to the really good seats in pyongyang
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Sep 3, 2020 06:38
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Rest in peace, David Graeber.
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Sep 3, 2020 15:48
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GalacticAcid posted:Rest in peace, David Graeber. gently caress  Bullshit Jobs was a great book
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Sep 3, 2020 15:57
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i think people tend to confuse the individual vs. the class or the particular for the general. there's not really any historical evidence to suggest that the american hugo chavez will emerge from the U.S. military along with a bunch of junior officers who support socialist ideology. i'll see some boneheaded propositions online that U.S. soldiers can be radicalized into betraying their own government like this is a viable political strategy. and it's like, maybe, in the event of a major war that the U.S. loses and in which the U.S. military and government collapses, but that doesn't seem too likely. but then people will also think individuals are stamped with their class forever, with the military being like a class, and that no one in the military or who was ever in the military can be a radical, which is just silly nonsense I don't think the us military enlisted is anywhere dissatisfied with the government to do anything about it. I just think that some people that were in the military can be radicalized to the left.
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Sep 3, 2020 16:28
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i mean people who were in the military can become radical socialists, obviously. i know some personally
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Sep 3, 2020 16:44
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THS posted:i mean people who were in the military can become radical socialists, obviously. i know some personally Def a group of people on the internet who disagree with this. https://twitter.com/a_lutacontinua/status/1301178239151464448 LittleBlackCloud fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 16:45
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well they’re cspam modded
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Sep 3, 2020 16:56
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GalacticAcid posted:Rest in peace, David Graeber. this is me https://twitter.com/ascended_harvey/status/1301529913317634048
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Sep 3, 2020 17:08
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Lmao
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Sep 3, 2020 17:10
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GalacticAcid posted:Rest in peace, David Graeber.
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Sep 3, 2020 17:11
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LittleBlackCloud posted:Def a group of people on the internet who disagree with this. He’s right
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Sep 3, 2020 17:19
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He’s right
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Sep 3, 2020 17:19
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You’ll pry my DSA 10th Mountain Division jokes out of my cold dead hands
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Sep 3, 2020 17:21
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GalacticAcid posted:Rest in peace, David Graeber.
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Sep 3, 2020 17:29
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GalacticAcid posted:Rest in peace, David Graeber.
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Sep 3, 2020 17:54
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THS posted:i mean people who were in the military can become radical socialists, obviously. i know some personally radical socialists can certainly come from the military but I can't help but feel skeptical of individuals claiming they are such who leverage their military service as if it's a good thing rather than something to be ashamed of. that said i'm i.e. not very skeptical of manning because she mostly just streams poo poo on twitch and has materially suffered for whistleblowing against military brutality. i don't have the best opinions of anarchists but I'm inclined to believe her when she calls herself an anarchist. maybe she's in the pocket of the state or whatever but I'm not convinced of that at all.
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Sep 3, 2020 17:57
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oh yeah the ex-military socialists i know are not bragging about it like it’s a good thing. more like “i saw how evil and hosed up what we were doing was first hand and now i fight against it”
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Sep 3, 2020 18:01
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Algund Eenboom posted:He’s right
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Sep 3, 2020 20:52
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Atrocious Joe posted:the DPRK is not a Chinese puppet. China has allowed the UN sanction North Korea multiple times. They've broken those sanctions at times, but North Korea still faces huge hurdles in trading with the rest of the world. How amusing is it that bumfuck North Korea is going to outlive America lol
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Sep 3, 2020 23:12
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Inshallah
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Sep 4, 2020 03:28
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Leninists, Groucho-Marxists, Bunkertarians, Tankies with our power combined
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Sep 4, 2020 04:26
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T-man posted:Leninists, Groucho-Marxists, Bunkertarians, Tankies we can accomplish almost jack poo poo
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Sep 4, 2020 04:33
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indigi posted:we can accomplish almost jack poo poo
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Sep 4, 2020 06:07
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LittleBlackCloud posted:Def a group of people on the internet who disagree with this. lol i don't care if he's an actual psyop or just a huge lib moron complaining as a socialist, either way this argument is designed to sabatoge solidarity with the pious elitism of libs who stopped caring about wars the moment the draft ended
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Sep 4, 2020 06:33
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Malkina_ posted:How amusing is it that bumfuck North Korea is going to outlive America lol 
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Sep 4, 2020 06:58
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Hodgepodge posted:lol i don't care if he's an actual psyop or just a huge lib moron complaining as a socialist, either way this argument is designed to sabatoge solidarity with the pious elitism of libs who stopped caring about wars the moment the draft ended How about expecting people to become "radicalized" by participating in class struggle against exploiters rather than as their armed representative? Anyone can do it, ex-soldiers aren't excluded! The reason why people "radicalized" by military become 'mass shooters, intel assets, domestic pigs, an assortment of paramilitary fascists, opportunist demsoc candidates, & self-centered chauvinists building careers on the corpses they created “first-hand”' is that while their background may inform them that things are messed up and need to be fixed, it leaves them totally directionless regarding where and how to start the process. Anyone who can feed them an appealing narrative can win them over. Actual socialist/progressive radicals have set up roots among the people, and that "radicalization" process can't even start before they've left the military behind! It follows that the military was holding them back in every respect apart from the initial spark of motivation to begin the process and teaching them some skills that might be applicable once they have developed to a fairly high level, but which are useless if they never do.
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Sep 4, 2020 11:01
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uncop posted:How about expecting people to become "radicalized" by participating in class struggle against exploiters rather than as their armed representative? Anyone can do it, ex-soldiers aren't excluded! if actual socialists and radicals have actually set up roots among the people, then there's no reason to assume most of the rest of your post. if anyone with an appealing narrative can win them over, then how about this socialism that is capturing the hearts of the people? while the military is very much designed to be fundamentally hostile to socialism, we are now talking about a scenario in which the average soldier is exposed to socialist ideas on a regular basis before, and even to some degree during their time in the military. i wouldn't, like, expect a socialist coup, but if you can turn any number of people with access to the murder machinery that will, if told to, grind whole cities into ash and pulp, as well as information and so forth, you maybe should. in principle, you should have members infiltrating the army. the army isn't going to, like, play nice and not infiltrate you. tye notable thing about the ussr was that the kgb was much better at this than the cia, not their noble stand against ever not calling a serving soldier scum to their face or something.
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Sep 4, 2020 12:10
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peasants and military can never be radicalized as borne out by actually existing material world history
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Sep 4, 2020 12:22
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In almost all successful revolutions parts of the army joined the revolution. And there have been cases of the military protecting protestors from the police. On the other hand, why try recruiting people when you could instead invent some excuses for why they intrinsically unrecruitable. Having supporters who aren't rich failsons goes against everything anglo socialism stands for.
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Sep 4, 2020 13:09
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The dominant argument is something like, "You wouldn't recruit cops, and troops are just cops for empire." Which I can see on some level but I've never heard of "Ex-Cops for Abolition" or a retired police chief writing a book called "The Carceral State is a Racket" so idk
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Sep 4, 2020 13:37
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Hodgepodge posted:if actual socialists and radicals have actually set up roots among the people, then there's no reason to assume most of the rest of your post. if anyone with an appealing narrative can win them over, then how about this socialism that is capturing the hearts of the people? while the military is very much designed to be fundamentally hostile to socialism, we are now talking about a scenario in which the average soldier is exposed to socialist ideas on a regular basis before, and even to some degree during their time in the military. Holy crap, you're illustrating why it's such brain poison for leftists to talk about "radicalization". No offense meant, the fault is on me for using that stupid word even in scare quotes. The socialist radical and "radicalized" people are entirely different things, claims about one don't imply a single thing about the other. I defined the socialist/progressive radical as someone who has set up roots among the people, meaning that no one who hasn't can be a radical in the progressive sense. This definition is not something I randomly pulled out of my rear end, it's a basic historical one that is based on defining people by what they do rather than what they think (as liberals do). A radical participates in a concrete radical movement, and the extent of their radicalism is measured by what they do within the movement. People who say they were "radicalized" by the military admit that they weren't a radical prior to their service, and it's extremely unlikely for anyone to become a radical during service because the military does all it can to unroot soldiers from society at large. Exposure to "socialist ideas" is entirely beside the point. Any aimless liberal is able to hold "socialist ideas" for their whole life, even as their full time day job, without taking a single step toward becoming a socialist. They can turn "socialist ideas" to oppose socialism, support beating up socialists, support murdering them, even support outright fascism! comedyblissoption posted:peasants and military can never be radicalized as borne out by actually existing material world history Yeah, lol, what was I thinking, how silly of me. How could I forget the aesthetic similarity between the 2020 US soldier and the 1917 Russian soldier? Let me call up the US maoist movement and tell them that the main force of the revolution is the rural farmowner!
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Sep 4, 2020 13:38
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I think the more problematic thing with cops is that socialists are much more likely to be in direct conflict with the cops than the military, so there's lots of good reasons to not trust an "ex" cop
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Sep 4, 2020 13:40
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GunnerJ posted:The dominant argument is something like, "You wouldn't recruit cops, and troops are just cops for empire." Which I can see on some level but I've never heard of "Ex-Cops for Abolition" or a retired police chief writing a book called "The Carceral State is a Racket" so idk I suppose there's Serpico, but you really don't see a lot of Serpico types out there the way you see Veterans for Peace or whatever
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Sep 4, 2020 14:01
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VictualSquid posted:On the other hand, why try recruiting people when you could instead invent some excuses for why they intrinsically unrecruitable. Having supporters who aren't rich failsons goes against everything anglo socialism stands for. Where is this tilting at windmills about people being considered unrecruitable coming from? The point is that military-"radicalized" people are not radical, they're dangerous. Dangerousness can be an asset, but only if it's made into an asset through a long process of development. Anyone who gives a military-"radicalized" recruit more responsibility than a curious liberal recruit is an idiot turning the danger on themselves. Neither of them have made more than the first step toward becoming radicals, "radicalization" is a bourgeois term that refers to another phenomenon entirely.
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Sep 4, 2020 14:26
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recruit them to what lol? like if you’re arguing about recruiting some hypothetical soldier to some hypothetical party we’ll that seems like kind of a waste of time to argue about. if you’re talking about recruiting some real actual human being to some real actual organization or party, then it’s a dialectical question which cannot be answered by some formula of oh you’re a soldier or were a soldier therefore you may/may not join us
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Sep 4, 2020 14:36
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uncop posted:Where is this tilting at windmills about people being considered unrecruitable coming from? The point is that military-"radicalized" people are not radical, they're dangerous. Dangerousness can be an asset, but only if it's made into an asset through a long process of development. Anyone who gives a military-"radicalized" recruit more responsibility than a curious liberal recruit is an idiot turning the danger on themselves. Neither of them have made more than the first step toward becoming radicals, "radicalization" is a bourgeois term that refers to another phenomenon entirely. I have literally no idea what you mean by "radicalized" anymore. And nobody is suggesting that trying to recruit among the military would have them being given more responsibility.
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Sep 4, 2020 14:39
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apropos to nothing posted:recruit them to what lol? like if you’re arguing about recruiting some hypothetical soldier to some hypothetical party we’ll that seems like kind of a waste of time to argue about. if you’re talking about recruiting some real actual human being to some real actual organization or party, then it’s a dialectical question which cannot be answered by some formula of oh you’re a soldier or were a soldier therefore you may/may not join us Unfortunately real organizations are filled with real people who make mistakes in addressing dialectical questions probably more often than not, so they’re forced to develop ugly and inflexible rules that seek to minimize the lasting damage from the daily stream of mistakes. The unfortunate thing about the internet debate is that you can’t tell who’s actually making a useful contribution to something and who’s just debating for the sake of debate. I suppose I’m just debating for the sake of debate though, peace!
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Sep 4, 2020 15:07
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