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pedo conspiracies make for strange bed fellows
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Sep 27, 2020 04:44
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The mind has to be a sieve, not a sponge. But also not throw out credible information solely because of its authorship, or any other thought-stop triggers intended to make you cease your curiosity
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Sep 27, 2020 04:55
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crazy eyes mustafa posted:The mind has to be a sieve, not a sponge. But also not throw out credible information solely because of its authorship, or any other thought-stop triggers intended to make you cease your curiosity ya this is what i was getting at, but as per usual everyone had 2 be rational and not fall for my mental chess trap
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Sep 27, 2020 05:13
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yeah, whitney webb is really unfortunate. being a covid denialist probably in the long run makes her a net negative impact on society, for all the extra dead and organ-damaged followers who could have instead heard the opposite message from her. she certainly has a lot of people's trust due to mastery of some topics. my 9/11 post relied on her observations about the anthrax attacks and the continued careers of officials involved, which seemed to check out on my (admittedly light) follow up. the whole rest of my post was literally just that kitty history song. I filled in some gaps between of course, apparently in a way that hadn't been done yet, but it's almost all right there in the song. trevor moore is good people.
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Sep 27, 2020 05:13
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nut posted:isn't whitney webb's mintpress stuff regularly referenced in this thread as the most comprehensive reporting on epstein? I'm hesitant to call it "comprehensive" because a lot of people would take that to mean it covers everything possible, and I know she has a particular ideological angle which in general means there's potentially lines of questioning she doesn't pursue or even hint at the existence of. She does put an absolute ton of sourced information into context in a way that mostly holds up, though.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:18
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nut posted:In maybe an oblique attempt to rein everything in here, common across JFK, every president, Dulles, and Epstein is a deep-seated belief that they are/were chosen and special to be part of the elite. All based out of Lippmann's notions that democracies do not work as intended because the public at large is idiotic and incapable and needs a small panel of appointed, not elected, technocrats to make sure things happen. This has long become the functional definition of a democracy and, I think, a critical if unconscious belief all of these people hold to justify their supra-governmental status. When challenged as to what makes these people so special, it's insane how flimsy it all is. It's like inheritance and Yale (which go hand in hand anyway). on this note, do any of these books talk about ranks within the ruling class? I just came off the history of Rome, so I have senatorial and equestrian and imperial rank on the mind, I know all poo poo is supposed to be dead and it's all capitalists now but that seems simplistic and incongruous with the thread
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Sep 27, 2020 22:38
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The Denier label is often used on, not on the small percentage of folks who actually deny the existence of, but those who question the severity of the conspiracy. It's lazy clownboat bullshit but it works on this forum.
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Sep 28, 2020 03:58
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You've got a point, individual responsibility is perfectly sufficient to prevent Americans from killing each other with COVID. Plague lockdowns are an unnecessary conspiracy that no other country uses \/\/ I think they were replying to me with a driveby defense of Webb, based on how I just above used the word denialist. Of course, it's hard to tell because they did not use the quote button Happy Thread has issued a correction as of 09:05 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 07:06
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Happy Thread posted:You've got a point, individual responsibility is perfectly sufficient to prevent Americans from killing each other with COVID. Plague lockdowns are an unnecessary conspiracy that no other country uses I THINK they meant the alleged exaggerations regarding the more serial killer-y details of the Holocaust and the accusations of anti-semitism for questioning anything about it at all, respectively.
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Sep 28, 2020 08:29
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https://twitter.com/CaseyBriggs/status/1309826779146629122
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Sep 28, 2020 12:18
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is that why tiktok is getting shut down?
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Sep 28, 2020 12:33
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jkf is 100 percent confirmed recategorize it lady.
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Sep 28, 2020 12:34
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nut posted:rand is also where packet switching was invented and played a key role in technologically revolutionizing military action from Phoenix program onwards What does packet switching have to do with the Pheonix program, a CIA Special Forces torture and assasination program? I feel like ppl in this thread spam their replies with interesting concepts that are jammed together into incoherence.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:04
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Suplex Liberace posted:is that why tiktok is getting shut down? ChiCom was using it to spread covid
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Sep 28, 2020 13:04
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Backweb posted:To be fair though, King Salman just needed to say "Qatar is a MUSLIM country" and president brainworms would obsess over it for the next few months. He has brainworms, you see. Apparently the head of Blackstone, a behemoth hedge fund specializing in real estate LLCs engineered the visit with Kushner. They also had a hand in writing the Trump tax bill in 2017 that largely lifted all taxes on real estate LLCs.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:07
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gradenko_2000 posted:Mossadegh and Abd-Al Karim Qasim weren't communists either, but you gotta call them all commies if you're gonna get the sign-off on couping them. Still trying to figure out why the US didnt back Britains invasion of Egypt in 56 over the nationalization of the Suez Canal. Was it too overt? A changeover from imperialism being about invasions of foreign powers (lol Gulf War 2) to covert actions and monetary pressure? Dunno.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:10
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Ike lacked the coronas to go toe to toe with big Nasser
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Sep 28, 2020 13:28
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Shageletic posted:Still trying to figure out why the US didnt back Britains invasion of Egypt in 56 over the nationalization of the Suez Canal. Was it too overt? A changeover from imperialism being about invasions of foreign powers (lol Gulf War 2) to covert actions and monetary pressure? Dunno. The US was supposed to finance Nasser's Aswan High Dam project. When the US got word that Egypt had struck a deal with Czechoslovakia for arms, the US pulled-out of the Dam financing arrangement. The nationalization of the Suez Canal was retaliation for that. The Suez Canal was owned by the UK and France, so they had the primary interest in stopping Nasser. They approached the US for help, but between the exposure that it was their actions that triggered Nasser's moves in the first place, coupled with the demand that the US prop up the UK's currency while this was going on, they refused. The British-French intervention petered out quickly after there was too much pressure on British finances, and that was that. Supposedly it was John Foster Dulles who had a hand in all this: he was the one that was outraged at the arms deal because the Czech guns were commie guns, and he was also the one who advised Eisenhower to not help the Brits, and this soured British opinion of him to the point where they started calling him "John Twister Dulles"
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Sep 28, 2020 14:20
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Shageletic posted:What does packet switching have to do with the Pheonix program, a CIA Special Forces torture and assasination program? sorry i shouldn't have conflated the ops names, but Phoenix wasn't the only program the CIA was running in Vietnam, it was just the old tried and trued approach of kidnap and kill. Contemporaneous with it was Project Agile, which involved technological approaches to both counterinsurgency and the collation of massive and growing intel files. Operation Igloo white (an attempt to bug the entirety of the Ho Chi Minh trail by dropping microphones and receivers all over it) and Operation Ranch Hand (largescale defoliation via Agent Orange and the other colours) both came out of Project Agile. RAND was contracted to oversee much of the tech side of it, including developing systems to analyze battlefield data but also transmit it wirelessly elsewhere in the world.
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Sep 28, 2020 14:24
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Vietnam was the first computerized war.
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Sep 28, 2020 14:40
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this is more of an 'anthropology of conspiracy theories' thing, and maybe it's more of a Trump thread thing, but this seems like the kind of thing you lot might know about: where did the Trumpian notion of the 'deep state' come from? like, when, specifically, did it make that jump over from 'specific term used to describe Turkish politics' to 'mortal enemy of one particular POTUS? I'm a lot more familiar with the notion of the 'deep state' in Turkey, whose existence isn't super controversial. The idea that there are persistent, self-perpetuating groups of actors within state civil services, intelligence communities, and armed forces, that exist on a largely unaccountable basis outside civilian control, and typically exist to smash leftist movements, secure themselves, etc. is pretty clear there, and I think you could make a similar case for a lot of other countries. A lot of pretty standard ideas about the military industrial complex, about FPA/studies bureaucratic politics, etc. touch on similar areas - you could easily point out similar (maybe not as cohesive, but very real) phenomena in the UK/USA etc. So it's something of a shock* (as a non-American) to see how far that term has become a kind of exclusively Trump-supporter notion that's seen as basically the same as talking about ZOG, 5G corona Soros, or other antisemitic rubbish (as per that video above, but more broadly too). Where did this come from/how did this happen? Is it just a matter of an evocative-sounding term reaching public consciousness being misused as a right-wing talking point, or is there some sort of long-term history of it being used by the Heritage Foundation or whatever?
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Sep 28, 2020 15:26
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The American "deep state" is the international criminal cabal that enforces capitalism across the globe. No idea when it first came up, but we know about the deep state because the exact same motherfuckers are always starting wars that they profit off of while violently repressing any dissent. Cheney, Bush, their buddies and their buddies' buddies, loving obviously Obama, etc. The military-industrial complex and the deep state may as well be synonyms for how much difference there is between their actions and motives. The powers that be have a strong incentive to tether all of the actual conspiracies to antisemitism so that the whole thing can be ignored and speaking out against it means you hates Jews and want to hug and kiss the Holocaust. Tubgoat has issued a correction as of 15:40 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 15:38
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Tubgoat posted:The American "deep state" is the international criminal cabal that enforces capitalism across the globe. yeah I have no doubt that it exists! like, that is obvious to anyone who looks at it (although I think it's a bit more specific as a term than, just, global capital more broadly - that's a system, whereas the DS is specifically people). but when did the term specifically become the Republican talking point of choice for identifying a very limited part of it? like yes, some of the people that are typically referred to by the Republicans as 'the Deep State' are such, but when Trump et al. talk about it they're much more concerned with, like, the Clintons, intelligence agency heads/military officials they don't like. There's not the same focus on, like, RAND/Halliburton/Raytheon/etc. (I know he mentioned arms manufacturers' role in war a few weeks ago - but that was a relatively off-handed one-off remark), and the more deep-seated organisational biases of the alphabet agencies that you and I would identify as the deep state(s) in the US. Where did this happen? Why did this happen? I guess you could trace out the idea that it entered popular discourse as a deliberate way of tarring all discussion of long-standing non-accountable bodies within governments as akin to ludicrous antisemitic stuff, but how/when did this happen? Who promoted it? Is it deliberate theatre by the 'powers that be' setting up a fake attack against themselves? Not asking rhetorical questions here - genuinely interested. I think we definitely agree that there's something there, I'm just trying to get a handle on how this very weirdly curtailed version of the idea got recycled into 'fake anti-paedo culture war'.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:07
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I’m sure it’s just one small part of something that came far before, but in the early 20th century Walter Lippmann debated with John Dewey about how a democracy must be run. they both agreed that society had gotten too complex for citizens to act in their own best interest, in part because it would be impossible for them to understand everything important that needed legislating. Lippmann’s solution was to introduce a panel of experts who were smart and would do all the tough deciding for citizens who could stay dumb. Lippmann and Edward Bernays furthered this approach by promoting the use of propaganda to allay citizen concerns about politics and get them to support technocratic decisions, most famously in the Creel Commissions incredibly successful propagandizing of the American public to enter ww1, something they did want at all originally. like I said, there’s no way this is the birth of the deep state, but it seems like an important formalizing of it to politically justify its use. keep in mind these people thought the deep state was a good and just thing that was needed to run a society. they also all assumed that they were experts and would naturally sit on decision making citizens unlike normal citizens who they thought were dumb and animalistic. this line of thinking also supported the restricting of vote power by making citizens choices oversimplified stereotypes of 2-3 choices that don’t reflect anywhere near the spectrum of possibility (rep/dem)
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Sep 28, 2020 16:09
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nut posted:sorry i shouldn't have conflated the ops names, but Phoenix wasn't the only program the CIA was running in Vietnam, it was just the old tried and trued approach of kidnap and kill. Contemporaneous with it was Project Agile, which involved technological approaches to both counterinsurgency and the collation of massive and growing intel files. Operation Igloo white (an attempt to bug the entirety of the Ho Chi Minh trail by dropping microphones and receivers all over it) and Operation Ranch Hand (largescale defoliation via Agent Orange and the other colours) both came out of Project Agile. Igloo White also played a major role in the development of Silicon Valley as it was the fixed price contracts that both incentivized development of cheaper electronics but then gave the companies massive profits when they did. Spending millions in 70s dollars on disposable radio transmitters gave a big kick start to the consumer electronics industry and lithium battery research.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:15
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nut posted:I’m sure it’s just one small part of something that came far before, but in the early 20th century Walter Lippmann debated with John Dewey about how a democracy must be run. they both agreed that society had gotten too complex for citizens to act in their own best interest, in part because it would be impossible for them to understand everything important that needed legislating. Lippmann’s solution was to introduce a panel of experts who were smart and would do all the tough deciding for citizens who could stay dumb. Lippmann and Edward Bernays furthered this approach by promoting the use of propaganda to allay citizen concerns about politics and get them to support technocratic decisions, most famously in the Creel Commissions incredibly successful propagandizing of the American public to enter ww1, something they did want at all originally. oh absolutely (and yeah, thank you for the note about increasing technocracy - that's definitely an important part along with the kind of individualised 'old-boys-anti-communist-network' stuff). I definitely need to improve my reading on this, especially as it relates to the way that approaches to governing changes post ww2. I think I'm more focused on the presentation of it though (am probably not wording things very well) - like, as an non-US outsider, it seems that a lot of people/their supposed political representatives claim to care about the issue, using this specific language, more now than in the past. They don't, in fact, but that's besides the point. Has there always been a tradition of popular push-back against the state-within-a-state? Like, popular opposition to the MIC (which I think Eisenhower came up with as a term?) represents a similar set of beliefs, but left-wing/anti-war, but I don't know if you can draw a direct family tree straight from that to current political discourse.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:22
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Only some kind of sicko freak would live in america imho. I do not recommend.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:27
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Suplex Liberace posted:Only some kind of sicko freak would live in america imho. I do not recommend. greatest country in the usa baby 
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Sep 28, 2020 16:33
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Shageletic posted:Apparently the head of Blackstone, a behemoth hedge fund specializing in real estate LLCs engineered the visit with Kushner. They also had a hand in writing the Trump tax bill in 2017 that largely lifted all taxes on real estate LLCs. Steve Schwartzman? You mean the guy whose former housekeeper was pushed under a subway right after Trump got elected?
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Sep 28, 2020 16:38
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The problem with this is it claims to be a categorization by realism, but it quickly becomes obvious that it's based on a perceived harm of the belief. For example, we've never found a living dinosaur or near-human primate, but "chemtrails" at least resembles documented cases of populations being dosed via airplane release. WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:but when did the term specifically become the Republican talking point of choice for identifying a very limited part of it? Republicans have been running on similar concepts at least since the advent of the Southern strategy. In the Cold War, liberal politicians were portrayed on one level of discourse as being weak, but consistently another right-wing current would consider them as actually in league with the communists, working against American interests. Something like that has persisted even afterwards. You could say it's because in a two-party system, the right-wing party has to court its extremists who otherwise don't believe in the system. This basic "deep state" notion assures them that they're not wrong to distrust the system, but also that there is a battle that can be won against the system by participating in it. There's a bit of Umberto Eco's definition of Ur-Fascism in there, the enemy being too strong and too weak. The term itself was probably just brought into use by someone like Bannon or Miller.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:51
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Is it deliberate theatre by the 'powers that be' setting up a fake attack against themselves? Qanon was some dumb rear end in a top hat loving around on 4chan. It happened to find purchase in the diseased minds of 4chan users. It metastasised into the real(?) world through such right-wing disinformation outlets as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram(?), etc. I don't doubt that many of the weak-willed goofballs who show up to the physical rallies believe earnestly that they are helping disrupt child trafficking, but it should be loving obvious to them that they're not, based on the fact that they're receiving favorable coverage on network television now!  As I understand it, the Clintons and Trumps are wealthy (or adjacent), very powerful white trash families, who exchange money through various charities and businesses that function as slush funds, receiving money from every other supercriminal in every country (literally, name a country; even the ones we bomb because they're made up of conflicting groups we hate, they're still filled with people we exchange assloads of money/suffering with). Prior to 2016, the Clintons and Trumps were friends; they went to the same parties, they ran in the same social circles, their kids went to the same clubs, etc. Maybe they still are friends. I'd pretend to bitterly hate my best friend in public if it guaranteed us both fuckloads of money and unaccountable power. poo poo, I'd messily blow up at them in newspapers weekly if it meant I never had to work a job with a boss and commutes and being awake ever again. We know for a fact that Trump has raped a 13-year-old, at the very least, and AFTER Epstein did. Allegedly. We know for a fact that Bill Clinton is a rapist, not necessarily of children, but I mean, he hosed his barely-post-college intern, lied about it and slandered her for it. I'm certain he would rape a child if he wanted to and thought he could get away with it. Was Clinton on the flight logs? I can't check right now but I'm pretty sure he is and if he is, that makes the case a mite stronger. It's some "describing the precise evolutionary path of amino acids to homo sapiens" poo poo, but they are for sure members of Epstein's network, who we know for a fact has been trafficking children all over the world, including the U.S., and we know they get help from intelligence agencies such as the CIA, Mossad, MI6, et al, WHO THEMSELVES have been tied to trafficking children for the entertainment of their proxy groups in the Mideast conflict(s), "independently" of any relation to the aforementioned white trash. In recent years, their victims are getting believed, little by little. The Miami Herald did a heroic effortpost on the network's ties to the highest levels of American law enforcement, and the girls who were middle schoolers when they were trafficked by Epstein, and the local police who gaslit the poor girls into blaming themselves to cover for the network, or (separate article, different publication I think) the local police department that was literally the personal security detail who returned an escaped Maria Farmer to her rapist/captor. Let us assume the network is fact. People are figuring out how often the same famous names come up, with or without each other. Kind of like on company boards. Dots are getting connected. Onto the scene storms Qanon! Donald Trump's asininity, sundowning and near-comprehensive* lack of redeeming qualities is really a ruse as he takes down the pedophiles! We're getting censored for getting too close to the truth! It's the deep state! They can't handle Trump shaking up the establishment so they're pulling out all the stops to thwart him! Except, not, because he isn't a threat to their power, even if he somehow ISN'T involved in the actual trafficking conspiracy. The deep state is the group of the same psychopaths who are behind (either literal or close to) every war, deathsquad, coup, invasion, mass human rights violation and ecological disaster since before my grandparents were born. Their origin story? "We can have all the power for ourselves if no one stops us. We'll commit crimes whose very discovery will cause us to be hunted like monsters so we all have dirt on each other, and then we control others by bribing or threatening them as needed!" Origin origin? White supremacy?  You trace the Bush crime family back far enough, you might find a precipitating event.Anyway, so, just as you can shut down any criticism by accusing its speaker of ethnic, religious or sexual hatred, you can tie fake hatred to any idea so that, in popular discourse, a violent prejudice is completely inseperable from discussion of the conspiracy. Example: If you want to make sure everyone believes the nazis were running a Bed Bath & Beyond (lampshades, candles, furniture, other weird poo poo I'd never heard of before cuppy tea posted) out of Auschwitz, make it so questioning any detail of the Holocaust is literally exactly the same as saying that Jews made the Holocaust up so they could take over the world. TRY and disprove it. I won't. I already know what will happen if I search ANY query containing the words "holocaust" "details" "evidence". I won't find any primary sources or anything helpful, but I will find shitloads of nazis saying the Holocaust both never happened and kicked rear end, interspersed with foundations established to combat misinformation, and probably some think tanks using the Holocaust to justify the genocide of Palestinians. Do you object to Palestine being Holocausted by a group claiming ancestral right based on a fictional narrative?  THEN YOU WISH HITLER HAD FINISHED THE JOB! Do you object to Kopmala making her bones with the blood of minority mothers and children?  THEN YOU HATE ALL INDIANS (BOTH KINDS, JUST TO BE SAFE), WOMEN AND BLACKS! Do you object to "both sides'" refusal to provide healthcare, education, shelter, meaningful work and time for self-actualisation and family?  THEN YOU WOULDA MURDERED ALL ARE BRAVE TROOPS IN VIETNAM YOURSELF! I could give more examples but I really don't want to. Qanon perfectly masks the literal global pedophile cult in a very similar manner. If you're a fan of Rick and Morty, think "complementary brainwaves." If not, please ignore the show's creators, fanbase and obnoxious merchandising, it is a work of art whose profundity is not constrained by its creators' politics. So all Qanon (the conspiracy is its insane loving cult) has to do is make up completely unhinged bullshit for their own entertainment and they get signal boosted. Or at least it was, for an upsettingly long time. Facebook took down the pages of Palestinian journalists and activists and anyone supporting them, under the guise of fighting hate speech, multiple years before Qanon existed. You could still call for the deaths of Palestinians though.  *Trump's singular good quality is that he triggers the libs so hard they fully unmask Tubgoat has issued a correction as of 17:36 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 17:33
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"Deep state" just means anyone in government who isn't elected. People with degrees like Masters in Public Administration who serve the city/county/DMV without explicit allegiance to a party. Trump demonizes them because they aren't explicitly Republican/pro-Trump, ergo they must be Democrat-aligned, right? 
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Sep 28, 2020 17:52
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crazy eyes mustafa posted:"Deep state" just means anyone in government who isn't elected. People with degrees like Masters in Public Administration who serve the city/county/DMV without explicit allegiance to a party. Trump demonizes them because they aren't explicitly Republican/pro-Trump, ergo they must be Democrat-aligned, right? Not even; "the deep state," "socialists," "communists," and "democrats" are all literally synonyms as far as Trump and his fanbase are concerned.
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Sep 28, 2020 17:59
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Tubgoat posted:Good poo poo mainlined into my veins Preemptive FREE TUBGOAT
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Sep 28, 2020 18:00
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Tubgoat posted:Not even; "the deep state," "socialists," "communists," and "democrats" are all literally synonyms as far as Trump and his fanbase are concerned.
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Sep 28, 2020 18:04
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Backweb posted:Preemptive FREE TUBGOAT
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Sep 28, 2020 18:17
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:this is more of an 'anthropology of conspiracy theories' thing, and maybe it's more of a Trump thread thing, but this seems like the kind of thing you lot might know about : It traces back to Peter Dale Scott, an ancient former Canadian diplomat and academic who straddles the line between respectable academic and conspiracy theorist. He's written several books on what he terms "Deep Politics" and how they to relate to the major conspiracies of the last half century.
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Sep 28, 2020 18:27
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Suplex Liberace posted:is that why tiktok is getting shut down? yes their algorithm works and isn't stuck on the local maximum of optimizing for anger
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Sep 28, 2020 18:31
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It's 'cause some teens hijacked the ticket supply to a Trump rally one time and like 40 people showed up to a place that'd seat a couple thousand or something.
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Sep 28, 2020 18:33
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qanon is just beyond me, what did they think trump was doing back when he owned beauty pageants and walked in on underaged teens dressing? Checking for pedophiles?
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Sep 28, 2020 18:35
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