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BonHair posted:It's impossible to know really. But we do get something related in deaf communities, where the spoken language isn't much of an influence. Generally speaking parents of deaf children in communities without an established sign language will make some poo poo up to communicate with their child. And since vocal grammar and phonetics translate poorly to gestures, the results are essentially novel, meaning we have a bunch of actual unrelated languages in the world. They do have similarities though, and borrowing signs occurs. thats interesting, i did forget that signing is a language. im guessing the way sign language was codified didnt happen until recently? now i wanna know about like, ancient egyptians having their own distinct sign langauge...thatd be cool as heck
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Dec 13, 2020 22:01
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Some sign languages are hundreds of years old at this point, but they aren't super old as far as I know. But there is some fun stuff happening in the first couple of generations, because the parents are essentially speaking a second language, the (deaf) kids learn a pretty rudimentary language as a first language and build on it, and the third generation get brought up with a much fuller first language that their parents are native in. Obviously, getting to the third generation requires a society that can accept deaf people and brings then together in a community, so it requires a pretty advanced society or a lot of deaf kids. But you can actually observe the above in some places in this very day. Meanwhile, deaf culture in Denmark is critically endangered by modern medical technology, because deaf kids get hearing aids now.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:15
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BonHair posted:Meanwhile, deaf culture in Denmark is critically endangered by modern medical technology, because deaf kids get hearing aids now. from what I've read, a lot of deaf people see this as an absolute net negative. I'm not sure what tact to take about it myself.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:17
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Tweezer Reprise posted:from what I've read, a lot of deaf people see this as an absolute net negative. I'm not sure what tact to take about it myself. Definitely. It's not at all uncontroversial, as it's essentially the state erasing a culture, much like what was done to native Americans and Australians and countless others in sure. On the other hand, being able to hear and speak with the vast majority of the world is kind of a good thing, and in theory you can keep the sign language community going without requiring people to be deaf (you can't, the kids aren't going to bother). I haven't quite made up my mind either.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:23
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I was deaf in one ear for a while and nearly got flattened by a forklift coming up to me from that side so I don't think culture is the primary consideration here.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:26
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BonHair posted:English Sign Language has essentially no relation to American Sign Language from what I remember. ASL is largely based on French Sign Language.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:48
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Sign languages of the world. Quite a few are based on American Sign Language. The "no data" countries reflect how poorly-documented some local sign languages are -- even if they're not using something formal and documented, deaf Iranians are definitely communicating somehow. As noted by others, there are issues with the map
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Dec 13, 2020 23:09
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Sign languages of the world. Quite a few are based on American Sign Language. The "no data" countries reflect how poorly-documented some local sign languages are -- even if they're not using something formal and documented, deaf Iranians are definitely communicating somehow. Hm, strange that it shows no data for Flanders and Netherlands. What I do know is that Netherlands has its own sign language (Nederlandse Gebarentaal), and the government is working on giving it official government language status. On the other hand, Flemish Sign Language (Vlaamse Gebarentaal, from the Belgian Dutch-speaking region) is not related to Nederlandse Gebarentaal at all. Instead, it's closely related to the French Belgian sign language which is a member of the French sign language family. That said, Flemish and French Belgian sign language are considered distinct languages. E: Wikipedia has this handy graph.  E2: Another interesting fact is that Nederlandse Gebarentaal (NGT) has a different grammar from Dutch. Dutch is subject - verb - object, (I take a book), but NGT is subject - object - verb (I book take). That's just an example, there's way more differences. That's why people who learn sign language as a 2nd language later in their life, and have a hard time getting the hang of NGT grammer often use a semi-official in-between form called "Dutch with Signs" (Nederlands met Gebaren; NmG). This is literally spoken Dutch translated word by word into signs, and while ungrammatical in NGT, it's apparently not that hard for NGT speakers to understand. Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Dec 13, 2020 |
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Dec 13, 2020 23:19
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Theres that one bedouin community deep in the desert of the west bank that just had a bunch of deaf kids because of inbreeding of a remote community without learning israeli sign language because its so remote and has had half its population be anthropologists studying the deaf kids as their sign language grows slowly more complex each generation.
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Dec 14, 2020 01:35
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BonHair posted:Definitely. It's not at all uncontroversial, as it's essentially the state erasing a culture, much like what was done to native Americans and Australians and countless others in sure. On the other hand, being able to hear and speak with the vast majority of the world is kind of a good thing, and in theory you can keep the sign language community going without requiring people to be deaf (you can't, the kids aren't going to bother). I haven't quite made up my mind either. As someone who has suffered from disability issues and continues to deal with it (blindness) I can confidently say gently caress YOU to anyone who says we need to preserve "deaf culture" or "blind culture" or whatever. It's fetishizing people. People don't exist so you can feel good about yourself for pitying them. Do we need to preserve Smallpox so we can gawk at the survivors bonding and supporting each other over their disfigurements? Choosing to harm children so you can have fun with sign language is evil, objectively. You should feel ashamed for even considering it.
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Dec 14, 2020 01:36
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galagazombie posted:As someone who has suffered from disability issues and continues to deal with it (blindness) I can confidently say gently caress YOU to anyone who says we need to preserve "deaf culture" or "blind culture" or whatever. It's fetishizing people. People don't exist so you can feel good about yourself for pitying them. Do we need to preserve Smallpox so we can gawk at the survivors bonding and supporting each other over their disfigurements? Choosing to harm children so you can have fun with sign language is evil, objectively. You should feel ashamed for even considering it. Reminder that about 100% of American goons think children are more or less the property of their parents, so they won't agree with what you're saying because it's a completely foreign concept to them that children are persons.
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Dec 14, 2020 01:44
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Theres that one bedouin community deep in the desert of the west bank that just had a bunch of deaf kids because of inbreeding of a remote community without learning israeli sign language because its so remote and has had half its population be anthropologists studying the deaf kids as their sign language grows slowly more complex each generation. galagazombie posted:As someone who has suffered from disability issues and continues to deal with it (blindness) I can confidently say gently caress YOU to anyone who says we need to preserve "deaf culture" or "blind culture" or whatever.
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Dec 14, 2020 01:54
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ulmont posted:That would be my general take ab initio. However most of the people I have seen with this opinion on the deaf side have been deaf themselves. Have they been the children getting the hearing aids saying it?
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Dec 14, 2020 01:59
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BonHair posted:It depends on where you draw the line for what constitutes a language. I am not aware of any animal that can produce a novel meaning not directly related to a current situation. Like, I can say "your dad is a car", which you hopefully haven't heard before, and still be understood. Animals generally just have a set of "words" tied to one meaning each, relating to something in the world like "danger" or "food" or "cont gently caress me". Cont?
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Dec 14, 2020 02:50
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I hear the americans eat at taco bell too. Can you believe those people.
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Dec 14, 2020 02:50
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One of our less objectionable qualities imo
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Dec 14, 2020 02:52
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galagazombie posted:As someone who has suffered from disability issues and continues to deal with it (blindness) I can confidently say gently caress YOU to anyone who says we need to preserve "deaf culture" or "blind culture" or whatever. It's fetishizing people. People don't exist so you can feel good about yourself for pitying them. Do we need to preserve Smallpox so we can gawk at the survivors bonding and supporting each other over their disfigurements? Choosing to harm children so you can have fun with sign language is evil, objectively. You should feel ashamed for even considering it. This is the exact same argument that people made a hundred+ years ago in support of the cultural genocide of various Native American tribes. Like literally, they saw Native culture/language as a disability/disfigurement/harm, something that Native people needed to be freed from in order to be whole and complete people. (The below is from a speech about how the federal government should force Natives into assimilating and giving up their culture.) If that's how you see your disability, that's totally fine! I myself also have a disability (ulcerative colitis) and I would definitely totally rid myself of it if I could. But if having a disability has taught me one thing, it's that whenever society tries to make broad, universal assumptions about one "best way" that should be mandatory for everybody, that has really bad consequences for people who don't fit into those narrow boxes. You shouldn't assume that other people experience their disability as a negative, any more than urban planners should assume that they don't need to provide public toilets. In both cases, that kind of assumption leads to some bad poo poo. ""Kill the Indian, and Save the Man" posted:It is a great mistake to think that the Indian is born an inevitable savage. He is born a blank, like all the rest of us. Left in the surroundings of savagery, he grows to possess a savage language, superstition, and life. We, left in the surroundings of civilization, grow to possess a civilized language, life, and purpose. Transfer the infant white to the savage surroundings, he will grow to possess a savage language, superstition, and habit. Transfer the savage-born infant to the surroundings of civilization, and he will grow to possess a civilized language and habit. These results have been established over and over again beyond all question; and it is also well established that those advanced in life, even to maturity, of either class, lose already acquired qualities belonging to the side of their birth, and gradually take on those of the side to which they have been transferred....
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Dec 14, 2020 07:24
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So, is the best solution to allow children born with deafness to decide which remedies to take later in life, even if it means the quality of said remedies will be worse? I can't think of a strictly better way.
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Dec 14, 2020 08:00
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It's not at all like genocide. If an analogy must be made, its more like Jehova's witnesses or the anti-vaxxer 'community' preventing their children from receiving standard medical treatment in the name of culture.
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Dec 14, 2020 08:32
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It's iffy because not being able to hear is an obvious disadvantage in everyday life (so is being a native American because of systemic racism). But at the same time, fixing the disability removes the person from their cultural background, which is why it's mainly deaf people arguing against implants. As for waiting till adulthood with the implants: the trouble is that you don't get to learn spoken language as a child then. Imagine the difference between the way you learned your native language and the way you learned whatever foreign language in high school, only you have to start from "what is sound?". A further complication is that the implant isn't actually a 100% fix, the sound quality is terrible, so you're still effectively hard of hearing and thus behind compared to people born with hearing.
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Dec 14, 2020 08:44
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Milo and POTUS posted:Cont? It's an abbreviation of Continue.
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Dec 14, 2020 09:34
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Family Values posted:It's not at all like genocide. If an analogy must be made, its more like Jehova's witnesses or the anti-vaxxer 'community' preventing their children from receiving standard medical treatment in the name of culture. Or like African Americans being weary of medical trials after the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the deaf community especially in the US have a history of forcible experimental medical procedures being carried out on them and their children 'for the greater good' Rumda fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 12:28
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Everyone even the hearing, should get as many implants as possible until the average person is more machine than man.
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Dec 14, 2020 12:30
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Good old "slippery slope" eugenics argument to be had around this poo poo, always goes well.
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Dec 14, 2020 12:38
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sebzilla posted:Good old "slippery slope" eugenics argument to be had around this poo poo, always goes well. It's not even slippery slope, deaf people were targeted for forced sterilisation as part of the mid century US eugenics efforts
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Dec 14, 2020 13:11
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Tweezer Reprise posted:So, is the best solution to allow children born with deafness to decide which remedies to take later in life, even if it means the quality of said remedies will be worse? I can't think of a strictly better way. No a guy with ulcerative colitis should decide, because giving Danish kids free hearing aids will genocide one or more peoples. 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 13:36
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Are hearing aids genocide? This hot take and more from a very healthy society.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:45
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Rebel Blob posted:I'd recommend to anyone interested reading this article from the Smithsonian Magazine, especially if you haven't read 1491. Thanks that has been a cool read
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Dec 14, 2020 13:51
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Rumda posted:Or like African Americans being weary of medical trials after the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the deaf community especially in the US have a history of forcible experimental medical procedures being carried out on them and their children 'for the greater good'
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Dec 14, 2020 15:30
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Zedhe Khoja posted:Are hearing aids genocide? This hot take and more from a very healthy society. It depends on where you draw the line for genocide really. No people are actually killed obviously, but the whole culture based on sign language and deafness, which is pretty well functioning and sustainable unlike slavery, will pretty certainly be erased within s few generations. No one of saying we definitely shouldn't do it either, but it's a relevant ethical dilemma.
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Dec 14, 2020 15:49
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Please tell me this is just an American thing. Surely there are no actual people saying that we shouldn't let children hear just because they didn't have hearing aids 2000 years ago or something. Right? Right??
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Dec 14, 2020 16:25
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Darkest Auer posted:Please tell me this is just an American thing. Surely there are no actual people saying that we shouldn't let children hear just because they didn't have hearing aids 2000 years ago or something. Right? Right?? The actual pushback is from the deaf community pushing back about automatically having kids fitted with a cochlear implant without asking the parents, whcih is in line with older practices of treating deaf people as if they cannot give consent. This is a community who have suffered decades of medical abuse in living memory.
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Dec 14, 2020 16:32
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Rumda posted:The actual pushback is from the deaf community pushing back about automatically having kids fitted with a cochlear implant without asking the parents, whcih is in line with older practices of treating deaf people as if they cannot give consent. I fail to see how this is relevant in any way. Just because a child's parent is a bitter rear end in a top hat doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to loving hear things.
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Dec 14, 2020 16:39
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Requiring parental consent for major surgery on minors is a simple thing that I think most people should agree with in general. Demanding that a procedure to correct what is objectively a health defect shouldn't exist and shouldn't be done at all is absurd. It's also a massive assumption that all deafness is hereditary and part of its own culture, because it's not. It's a condition that can develop in a variety of situations. Having an ability also doesn't cut you off from sign language and it doesn't restrict your ability to associate with your family or friends or the people around you. Therefore, parents should be able to refuse implant surgery, but if they do it on the grounds that they don't want their child to have opportunity or stray from their community, they're assholes on the level of insular religious fundamentalists trying to shut themselves off from the rest of the world.
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Dec 14, 2020 17:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Therefore, parents should be able to refuse implant surgery, but if they do it on the grounds that they don't want their child to have opportunity or stray from their community, they're assholes on the level of insular religious fundamentalists trying to shut themselves off from the rest of the world. Are they assholes or are they committing horrible child abuse?
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Dec 14, 2020 17:27
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So you won't join my campaign against the erasure of high cholesterol culture?
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Dec 14, 2020 18:02
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So I'm hearing but both my parents were born deaf. My mum has literally holes for ears, she simply physically cannot hear. When she was in school they followed "oralist" principles which is basically get deaf people to be hearing people. She had to go to special boarding schools and was moved around alot which she hated being so far away from her family. The teachers constantly tried to get her to talk which she was incapable of. She and her friends would use sign language and would be beaten by the teachers when they were found out. My father also had to go to boarding schools but he was able to use hearing aids to hear some things and was placed with hearing kids unlike my mother. He found school a real struggle, he wasn't able to hear the teacher as well as the hearing kids and suffered a lot. His parents tried thier best to improve things but were far away from his school, there was only so much they could do. Both my parents had objectively bad education and came out with no qualifications and both worked in factories (thier bosses loved that they couldn't talk to the other employees). They are both very intelligent people but were failed by the oralist system. So you can see why deaf people might think just slapping a hearing aid or implant on a kid to make them an inferior version of a hearing kid and saying "great job done" is not what they want. Is it so bad that they might want thier kids to learn sign language? This isn't that long ago, it was the 70s in the UK. Clapham Omnibus fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 18:12
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Another angle to this is that to automatically put in the implants without consulting the parents - to pathologize deafness the same way that we would pathologize a leaky heart valve or a childhood illness, e.g. - perpetuates stigma against the deaf parents. In other words "we need to fix your kids" says to them "you are a broken and incomplete human and a burden to society," which obviously isn't true. Given the history of institutionalization and abuse that deaf (and blind and otherwise disabled persons) have suffered in the US (and frankly continue to suffer), it's not surprising that there's pushback. People should be allowed to have autonomy over lives, and the parents should be allowed to be able to have input on their child's medical care. There's also no easy answer - that's what makes it an ethical problem. Anyway isn't Georgian a language isolate too?
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Dec 14, 2020 18:33
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CommonShore posted:Anyway isn't Georgian a language isolate too? Looks like there are three living languages related to Georgian, all endangered. 
Vivian Darkbloom fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 18:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:Demanding that a procedure to correct what is objectively a health defect labeling completely functional people as defective is kinda gross
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Dec 14, 2020 18:55
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