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Also, thinking back to Angron dressing down Guilmon always reminds me of this quote. 
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Dec 29, 2020 22:21
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm a pretty big Undivided guy, at least of the more 'religious" type like the Word Bearers so this is extra incentive to read the story. I was asking about if AOS had an equivalent to a Dark Apostle and was told it does have priests and the like. Warshrines, Slaughterpriests, etc.. When you read the book I request that you post your impressions.
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Dec 29, 2020 22:50
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GW makes way more money off the tabletop than books, but they've finally realized how valuable and important the lore is to the whole thing with the new management that came in 5-6 years ago and have put more resources behind BL. The Angron discussion is actually very relevant here. The incorrect viewpoint the poster on the last page had was actually correct for the first 20-30 years of 40k when the lore was incredibly wide but very shallow. Since the HH series was started, and especially in the last five years, GW and BL have really started digging deeper and providing much more story and context to the existing lore. Angron used to just be the angry primarch who had tech in his head that made him angry, but they have since went back and added so much richness and nuance to the story the old viewpoint just isn't true anymore. The other effect of this is GW started the animation/production house and we are getting the upcoming shows including Eisenhorn. I think they saw what Marvel did and realized they had something analogous and could print money if they could do even a quarter as well as marvel has done with their IP.
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Dec 29, 2020 22:56
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Plus a lot of the more notable new books seem to be shying away from straight bolter porn and exploring the weirder sides of the 40K universe. You still have your mythic era Heresy battles among gods but then you have stuff like the Vaults of Terra which have more of a mood to them.
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Dec 29, 2020 23:21
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Improbable Lobster posted:Hard disagree, the books make it pretty clear that if Angron wasn't utterly broken and in control of himself he would have told big E to shove it This. He tells it to Russ pretty convincingly, and had no reason to lie or porture. Hell, Russ was calling him a _heretic_, decades before the actual heresy, for daring to doubt that the Crusade was about anything but the liberation of humankind. His closing statement was basically "I am a butcher now because I stopped caring. If I still did, I'd be killing our dad, the biggest tyrant around." And in Nuceria, when he was arguably at his most crazed and nails-damaged, he was still pointing out to Guilliman that big blue landed in a world that made him prince and put him in power, while Angron was mentally mutilated, enslaved and fed poo poo. Asking him to just forget the past and get with the program was pretty much akin to telling a tetraplegic to pull himself up by the bootstraps and go train for the Crique du Soleil like his brothers. Maybe it could have been different. Rescuing his slave army could be a way. His bond with other broken slaves could then be expanded into a bond with his legion and the rest of Humanity. But that wouldn't be grimdark, and that is WAY better parentage than the Big E is willing to offer. Also, funny non-related tidbit. In Saturnine, they mention that Nuceria has been glassed by Guilliman now that he is on his way. Given that that world was already reaved clean of life by Lorgar and Angron genociding it, a massive three-legion battle, and then a capital ship crashing into it, was there anything left to destroy? Some planets just have the worst luck!
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Dec 29, 2020 23:54
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Question how long before the Heresy did Logar and Horus turn. I know Curze went rogue and abandoned the crusade about 20 years prior, but what about the other traitors.
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Dec 30, 2020 00:01
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I'm pretty sure it says in First Heretic that Lorgar had his religious epiphany 30 years before the Dropsite Massacre...
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Dec 30, 2020 00:09
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MariusLecter posted:Also, thinking back to Angron dressing down Guilmon always reminds me of this quote. Angron declares rebellion: “I don’t need any of you! I’ll make my own empire, with blackjack and mountains of skulls!” Sephyr posted:Also, funny non-related tidbit. In Saturnine, they mention that Nuceria has been glassed by Guilliman now that he is on his way. Given that that world was already reaved clean of life by Lorgar and Angron genociding it, a massive three-legion battle, and then a capital ship crashing into it, was there anything left to destroy? Some planets just have the worst luck! If it’s anything like the Devastation of Baal, Angron probably left a huge pile of skulls or a monument to Khorne with all the bones. That sort of thing has ritual power and significance, even if the world is a lifeless husk. It would’ve owned if Angron had suddenly faltered, wounded, during the final battle, and we only found out later that it’s because his Sacred Mountain of Skulls got vaped.
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Dec 30, 2020 00:11
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Lorgar was the only pre-istvaan traitor and he turned, along with his legion, about 50 years prior. The word bearers were working in the background that entire time preparing for the heresy by laying groundwork like the lodges. Horus fell on Davin and pretty shortly after Istvaan happened. Cruze may have abandoned the Crusade before the HH but he wasn't an outright traitor to the Imperium at that point.
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Dec 30, 2020 00:36
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D-Pad posted:Cruze may have abandoned the Crusade before the HH but he wasn't an outright traitor to the Imperium at that point. Well he was by definition a traitor at that point, but from what I can tell he just never went full on Chaos traitor. From what little I know even when he teamed up with all the other Chaos primarchs, he never personally fell to chaos or even really gave a poo poo about it.
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Dec 30, 2020 02:09
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I know that angron often says (notably, only in situations where he’s already locked in a fight with fellow legions) that he’s rebelling against the emperor’s tyranny, but the strong impression that I get is that that’s a lie he tells himself to try to make what he’s doing more noble. Maybe there is a speck of the noble warrior he could have been hidden inside him, and before he gets daemonized that speck is driving his self loathing. But his actions indicate that he doesn’t really care much about freedom or tyranny as abstract concepts, only how they apply to him and his legion. He was perfectly happy to eat worlds for the Emperor and he seamlessly switched over to doing it for Horus, without any indication that Horus would be an less of a murderous tyrant. The whole Night of the Wolf only happened because Angron was going murdercrazy on innocents, not because he was too principled for the Crusade. So no, I don’t think Nails-less Angron would really stand up to the Emperor, any more than Jaghatai Khan did (who had a much more caring and noble upbringing but still existed in the same milieu i.e. a member of a low tech outcast group relentlessly hunted and murdered by high tech elites). Still, it’s a counterfactual. It would be nice to see an alternate history where Angron lands somewhere else and we get to see what he’s like without the Nails in his brain. There are plenty of alternate 40k histories, it might be fun to scramble all the Primarchs’ landing locations and see what changes. Some were more shaped by their upbringing than others, but Nuceria, Barbarus, Nostramo and Colchis really seem like they’d badly screw up whoever landed there.
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Dec 30, 2020 02:14
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D-Pad posted:GW makes way more money off the tabletop than books, but they've finally realized how valuable and important the lore is to the whole thing with the new management that came in 5-6 years ago and have put more resources behind BL.
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Dec 30, 2020 03:44
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Arquinsiel posted:They realised that a lot of their 80's and 90's era fans now had stability and cash and their prior model of targeting 12 year olds for one off big purchases wasn't sustainable in the long run. Watching the "stupid yellow mouse" they mocked in the early 2000's as a passing trend and not a threat to them at all as it was a mascot at a world cup decades later was a bit of a wakeup call. What's the mouse? I don't get this reference.
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Dec 30, 2020 03:50
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D-Pad posted:What's the mouse? I don't get this reference. Pikachu.
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Dec 30, 2020 03:55
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Arquinsiel posted:They realised that a lot of their 80's and 90's era fans now had stability and cash and their prior model of targeting 12 year olds for one off big purchases wasn't sustainable in the long run. Watching the "stupid yellow mouse" they mocked in the early 2000's as a passing trend and not a threat to them at all as it was a mascot at a world cup decades later was a bit of a wakeup call. I still don't get Pokemon. I'm about 5 years to old to have been in the first craze. My kids went to school and one day came home and loving loved Pokemon. It is really weird because I don't think they or I understand why, it is just because other kids also like it as best I can tell.
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Dec 30, 2020 09:28
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I mean... It's got collection reward, a fun basic RPG style battle system and the reward aspect from evolving Pokemon's that can feel a little like a loot box. That's without going into some fun design aspects for the Pokemon's that make it easy to have a favourite or whatever. I can definitely understand asking why Pokemon is the favourite rather than some other games with similar mechanics but ultimately it's giving you something very fun to collect. I say this not really being a huge Pokemon fan, I was at the age to get the first game and enjoyed it. It was also the first Gameboy thing I was aware of that let you interact with other people in that you could swap cartridges and swap monsters (I am hazy on the mechanics of it but I swear you could).
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Dec 30, 2020 09:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:
It’s interesting to see GW write a world that doesn’t balance on the knife edge of apocalypse, but they clearly don’t know how to write it interestingly. AoS suffers the same issues that all super high fantasy loving about with planes does - magical planes are consequence free in DnD, MtG and AoS. Oh no! The plane of fire is being invaded by monsters from the plane of being a pillock! Who cares? There’s no relatable touchstone (countries, planets, areas of defined size which can be grasped in relation to others), and no rules of the world in AoS that provides any grounding or consequence. The unfolding narrative is fiddling around the edges of a theoretically infinite plane of chooseanoun where hyphen-objects are contested by adjective noun verbs. AoS as a game is much much better than it was, but as a setting for stories it has much less ongoing impact and narrative significance than other, similar, settings. I think a good example is the three Warhammer horror anthologies - each contains some good and some bad AoS stories, but none have any worldbuilding threads that scream AoS because there simply aren’t any beyond mention of specific model ranges, the worlds are functionally infinite and run on magic that is never given any limiting or bounding constructs. 40k and the old world are both weird and completely bizarre places that function on magic, but they have touchstones, structures and rules, which is why they work as settings for fiction. lenoon fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Dec 30, 2020 |
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Dec 30, 2020 12:16
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Some of the new AoS factions are really striking aesthetically so that's something.
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Dec 30, 2020 12:58
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The best AoS factions are the weird Warcry warbands that aren't as blatantly themed after the big four Chaos gods but are still recognisably Chaos.
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Dec 30, 2020 13:01
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lenoon posted:AoS suffers the same issues that all super high fantasy loving about with planes does - magical planes are consequence free in DnD, MtG and AoS. Oh no! The plane of fire is being invaded by monsters from the plane of being a pillock! Who cares? There’s no relatable touchstone (countries, planets, areas of defined size which can be grasped in relation to others) I know nothing about AoS, but the issue you describe usually boils down not to countries or other features but to characters. If the Plane of Fire had a bunch of well-loved stories set in it, and some major characters who consider it their home, then its destruction will be felt no matter how metaphysical it gets. And viceversa, nobody cares about a world that's just a map of random borders.
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Dec 30, 2020 14:34
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Agreed on characters, but you can empathise far more easily with fantastical characters when the setting is relatable - we know what a planet is, a country, a city etc, we can’t grasp what a AoS realm is. The setting is an empty void - Gotrek works because he’s wandering around going what the gently caress is this, while the realm gate wars are turgid because there’s no actual grounding stakes that exist within the rules of the world. Hell there are no rules!
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Dec 30, 2020 15:03
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Ii in n Edit: no idea what happened here. Buttposting.
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Dec 30, 2020 15:06
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Gotrek works because his response is literally the reader reaponse going "What the actual gently caress is all this then". I do need to read more AoS books, because I honestly cannot think of a single location in the setting that sticks out to me as much as say, Nuln, Altdorf, Praag, etc etc.
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Dec 30, 2020 16:39
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Angron had given up after he was "rescued" by the big E and his family was eliminated. He knew he was the brutal enforcer of a tyrant and had resigned himself to that. The only option he had to stop the pain in his head and feel anything was to be the jackboot of an authoritarian dictator. His only other option was suicide or death in combat. He didn't give a poo poo about his legion and their desire to become close to him by implanting a fisherprice version of the nails. His legion was only a way to get to a fight so he could suicide by alien/titan/nuke.
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Dec 30, 2020 18:22
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The best AoS factions are the weird Warcry warbands that aren't as blatantly themed after the big four Chaos gods but are still recognisably Chaos. Wholly with this take. The random warbands ooze flavor and story potential. The second I saw Corvus Cabal spoiled I knew I was buying into the game just for those models.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:11
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lenoon posted:It’s interesting to see GW write a world that doesn’t balance on the knife edge of apocalypse, but they clearly don’t know how to write it interestingly. So you saying this just means you don't know the setting. Cause countries, areas of semi defined size that can be grasped in relation to each other do exist. And yes there are rules for the world in AoS that provide grounding. Like the 40k universe a good chunk of the map is left vague but we know a great deal about the chunks that have been expanded on.
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Dec 30, 2020 20:08
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I have read none of the AoS books and know next to nothing about the setting, but what I do know seems lamer than the Old World, which was rad. My .02 imperial credits
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Dec 30, 2020 20:23
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lenoon posted:Agreed on characters, but you can empathise far more easily with fantastical characters when the setting is relatable - we know what a planet is, a country, a city etc, we can’t grasp what a AoS realm is. The setting is an empty void - Gotrek works because he’s wandering around going what the gently caress is this, while the realm gate wars are turgid because there’s no actual grounding stakes that exist within the rules of the world. Hell there are no rules! For example of this here is the Great Parch an area about the size of Eurasia, that makes up about 1/10th of the Realm of Fire (The rest left blank for whoever wants to do anything with it). It's probably the most detailed area of the Mortal Realms currently and it serves as the default location for the Age of Sigmar RPG. (Which I heartily recommend for anyone that wants to learn about the setting, or just play a fun tt rpg.)  The northern most Free City there Anvilgard it's one of the major playable cities, has been the setting of novels and stories, and is known as a bit of a hive of scum and villainy city with heavy criminal activity. It recently got an adventure path and guidebook in the RPG. Anvilgard has also as of the latest Campaign book for the Age of Sigmar game has been conquered. When the Daughters of Khaine, a major factions led by Morathi, betrayed the Alliance of Order and invaded it. Granting her a major port in the Realm of Fire and access to it's four Realm Gates (Which are two way portals that lead somewhere else in the Realms for those who don't know.) granting her a backdoor entrance in four other Order fortresses.
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Dec 30, 2020 20:25
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AoS's setting seems neat but it also seems a lot vaguer than the fantasy not-earth of the old world. I do like that it's slightly less colonial than the old world was.
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Dec 30, 2020 20:39
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Improbable Lobster posted:AoS's setting seems neat but it also seems a lot vaguer than the fantasy not-earth of the old world. I do like that it's slightly less colonial than the old world was. Well yes that was on purpose, They wanted more space in the world where people could just do whatever. It's a setting that greatly grew on me once I gave it a chance.
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Dec 30, 2020 20:44
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edit: this is a dumb argument. I’m glad you enjoy AoS!
lenoon fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 30, 2020 |
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Dec 30, 2020 21:52
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So do the various Legions have like a historical theme? I just noticed most of the EC have like Latin or Roman names. Are Magnus' crew supposed to be "Egyptian" with names like Sehkmet Cabal? Or is it all just random cool names? I mean, when they don't just have cartoonish evil name like Fabius Bile. I swear he sounds like a Captain Planet villain.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:01
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NikkolasKing posted:So do the various Legions have like a historical theme? I just noticed most of the EC have like Latin or Roman names. Yes. Magnus and Friends are space Egyptians, space wolves are space Vikings, white scars are space mongols but also ride badass motorcycles, dark angels are the mid-eighties British homosexual scene combined with generic medieval fantasy, blood angels are vampires, ultramarines are the platonic ideal of blandness, etc.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:33
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Iron Hands are gay robots, it's all pretty straightforward
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Dec 31, 2020 00:51
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Bender but he bends dicks
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Dec 31, 2020 01:19
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aphid_licker posted:Bender but he bends dicks And the Iron Warriors are Flexo, which holds.
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Dec 31, 2020 02:10
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IIRC Fabius was his given name, and he's unspecified Northern European, but Bile was a nickname bestowed on him pre-Heresy.
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Dec 31, 2020 12:38
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I think one big counterargument to any sort of nobility claims about Angron was the reaction of the loyalist World Eaters when Angron made landfall on Istvann III. No hesitation, every one of them knew that this was a long time coming and while the other legions' loyalists were regrouping, they all went straight at Angron. As for the AOS setting, I've probably read more AOS books than Old World at this point, but honestly the Old World felt pretty stagnant too. Are you going to have Chaos finally put the boot into Kislev and leave it a warped wasteland and advance the line closer to the Empire? Have the Wood Elves finally take over Bretonnia? Actually explore Cathay? Probably not. At least with AOS you can build up some stuff and then tear it down (see: Anvilguard) and then still have room to work with.
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Dec 31, 2020 19:39
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How many loyalists within the traitor legions actually survived Istvaan III? I know at least one group of Iron Warriors were taken in by the Ultramarines and the Death Guard who fled on the Eisenstein joined with Malcador to form the proto inquisition Ordos.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 19:45
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Arcsquad12 posted:How many loyalists within the traitor legions actually survived Istvaan III? I know at least one group of Iron Warriors were taken in by the Ultramarines and the Death Guard who fled on the Eisenstein joined with Malcador to form the proto inquisition Ordos. probably less than 50 marines total. it was fuckin thorough. e: not all the loyalists were on istvaan, though, especially from the four Drop Site Massacre legions.
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Dec 31, 2020 20:45
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