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I feel bad for one inmate in that super jail: america Glad its free again 
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Jan 18, 2021 04:26
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Aurora posted:she's just in superjail bro, not every villain has guns trained at them 24/7 like the literal epitome of villainy in the world of mha I think the intent in this chapter with the presentation of the jail is clearly intended to make us feel uneasy about it... but not about using it for AfO. Because seriously. That guy has it coming.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:43
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It might also help the audience feel a little less bad about watching the prison get utterly rolled and everyone who worked there murdered. There was plenty of time to pluck heartstrings over the sacrifices of the Heroes and the suffering of the civilians caught up in the big battle. The story's looking to blow through these guys in two chapters so we can focus on the implications of AFO running free, so having the prison itself be pretty questionable lets us gloss them over a bit. It's kind of like how the League got pitted against other villains a lot so it'd be easier to focus on where the story's heading instead of sympathizing with whoever they're up against.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:08
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SKULL.GIF posted:It's a little strange that people are focusing on the one guard being unsympathetic and the conditions of the prison given that the rest of the chapter proves him correct with the prisoners killing people by the dozen and breaking out the moment they were able to use their quirks. Treat people like monsters and they turn into monsters. Also, there are a lot of people in that prison, as all the doors and stuff show; so far we've only seen people we already knew were killers going and, well, killing, though. The rest have all been running (or getting skewered by Moonfish, who seems a bit indiscriminate in his murder). Many of the rest may well not be nearly as bad. Remember Twice? If Hawks hadn't killed him and he had been captured instead, he'd have 100% been put in Tartarus as well, given the government's view on how dangerous he could be. Do you think that's a good thing? Do you think that Twice deserved to be locked up in a room without anything to do or any other human contact for the rest of his life? How about Toga, or Spinner? If Overhaul's ideology is enough to get him put in there despite not being able to use his quirk anymore, then someone who's a fervent follower of Stain (who is also in Tartarus despite his objectively weak quirk) and has been part of the League of Villains for so long would absolutely get thrown in the pit forever as well. Is this a good or just outcome? What about people who aren't actually guilty, but were framed by someone else or railroaded by corrupt government officials (which seems especially easy when you can apparently bypass the legal system entirely when throwing people in there); is that acceptable? Because you can't avoid that kind of thing if you want an institution like Tartarus to exist; perfection isn't possible. How many eggs are you willing to break so you can make your unaccountable forever-prison omelette? Aurora posted:gotta say it's a weird tack to take that they're being too harsh on afo, somehow. I don't think anyone's actually said that; the one person who pointed out that the conditions AFO are in are literally torture argued that it'd be better to just kill him, and my own post was about everyone else, including the explicitly not-actually-sentenced people that the comic outright states are there. If the government decides to put you there, you don't get a trial and you don't get out. That is a bad thing, even if there are some legitimately evil and unbelievably dangerous people also being locked up there. You're being intentionally obtuse and ignoring what people are actually saying so you can go "wow a lot of people here love AFO", which makes your complaints about other people being insufferable especially ironic. If I wanted to argue like you, I'd do something like point out that you and others are defending what's effectively Guantanamo Bay But With Superpowers as a good and necessary institution, then use that to make inferences about your character and opinions on torture, possibly over three or more back-to-back posts for some reason, but that would be a very foolish thing to do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 05:11
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The main issue with super power criminals is you need a super power prison to keep people in. Impel Down has a lot of fantastical elements to it to show how it's a crazy place to keep even crazier people, and seastone to nullify powers is an additional assurance on top of that. Tartarus is, like, a regular prison, and they use guns on criminals even though we had Muscular outright state that those don't really work on him. Are there other quirk guards to help out? If you shove a load of supervillains in one place with not much to really keep them in check then it seems like it's a really big time bomb waiting for people to break them out. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much and we won't really see it much after this chapter.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:12
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"If only those fools had just tried to rehabilitate poor misunderstood souls such as Muscular/Moonfish/Stain/Overhaul/AfO with the healing power of hugs and building birdhouses, we would need no more prisons! ...what's that? Moonfish is going to coach my kid's little league team?! Give him the chair!" -everyone who grandstands about "even the worst killers can be made into safe, productive citizens" both in fiction and real life
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Jan 18, 2021 05:12
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i think the electric lady looks neat
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Jan 18, 2021 05:15
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sorry if this ruffles any feathers
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Jan 18, 2021 05:19
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Funky Valentine posted:The height of comedy would be All For One getting acquitted because there's no actual evidence of him being Shadow Emperor of Japan. I think it’s more the leveling a city block that got him imprisoned, and that was on TV.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:21
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Roland Jones posted:Treat people like monsters and they turn into monsters. Also, there are a lot of people in that prison, as all the doors and stuff show; so far we've only seen people we already knew were killers going and, well, killing, though. The rest have all been running (or getting skewered by Moonfish, who seems a bit indiscriminate in his murder). Many of the rest may well not be nearly as bad. drat dude you really tried
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Jan 18, 2021 05:25
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if i wanted to argue like you but I DEFINITELY DON'T but here's how it sounds lmao
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Jan 18, 2021 05:30
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RatHat posted:I think it’s more the leveling a city block that got him imprisoned, and that was on TV. You'd think that, but it was actually for the securities fraud. Rintaro Nakabo really didn't want to let that case go.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:46
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RatHat posted:I think it’s more the leveling a city block that got him imprisoned, and that was on TV. *in extremely Law and Order SVU defense attorney voice* My client was only driven to destroy that city block because All Might exists.
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Jan 18, 2021 06:17
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I in fact argue that their first mistake was not killing AFO immediately. And that they're correct that they should make Machia start eating missiles and end him.
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Jan 18, 2021 06:20
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Funky Valentine posted:*in extremely Law and Order SVU defense attorney voice* My client was only driven to destroy that city block because All Might exists. Ah, the Lex Luthor defense. 
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Jan 18, 2021 06:21
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Wow, turns out the unique psychic connection between AfO and Shigaraki has allowed him to no longer be imprisoned. He's out on bond.
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Jan 18, 2021 06:22
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kidcoelacanth posted:i think the electric lady looks neat I’m guessing the electric lady is gonna be a secret good guy or defect because there have been basically 0 conventionally attractive villains so far and there’s not much reason to doubt that streak’s gonna hold. (Overhaul might count except he wears an idiot beak all the time so the rule still holds, IMO) E: There were maybe 2 of the propaganda people from the PLA but one got splattered by Toga instantly, so if anything she’s the exception that proved the rule TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 06:37
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I think you're ALL right  But seriously I think part of the problem is that Tartarus exists as some weird kind of half-measure. There are people in there that can and should be held in regular non-gitmo prisons and simply aren't whether that's a lack of belief in rehabilitation or for entirely political reasons and there are also people like AfO who have murdered in broad daylight and (like Muscular) will tell you happily about all the times they've done it, and are one power outage away from breaking out and being supervillains and should probably just be executed (and yes, I'm against the death penalty in the real world where ssuperpowers don't exist) instead Tartarus exists as this kind of in-between limbo that doesn't handle either group particularly well.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:53
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super prison is kinda interesting conceptually in a super powered society because how do you humanely imprison criminals like a4o or gigantomachia but mostly they just exist to be broken out of. if there's a super prison mentioned somewhere, you know someone's breaking out of it eventually
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Jan 18, 2021 08:06
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That prison and the attitude of the guards in it has done more to destroy heroic society than anything else in the manga. Go to gulag, no trial for you.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:27
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In conclusion Overhaul was right (except for the child abuse)
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Jan 18, 2021 08:32
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All for one hasn't committed any crimes it was twice and toga impersonating him
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Jan 18, 2021 10:34
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It's possible to feel like quirk society needs to imprison or outright kill the most dangerous criminals, while also acknowledging that it's been applied too harshly and helped create an entire criminal class that's literally about to flood the entire country.
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Jan 18, 2021 12:44
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:It's possible to feel like quirk society needs to imprison or outright kill the most dangerous criminals, while also acknowledging that it's been applied too harshly and helped create an entire criminal class that's literally about to flood the entire country. However they do have all the pieces in place to create a situation where super-duper criminals like AFO or Machia could have their Quirks removed, and potentially restored after trial or serving a penal term. Which has its own issues, of course, but as with Mr. Kills-all-life in the example above: That guy probably WOULD like to not have his mutant "power."
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Jan 18, 2021 13:16
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Nessus posted:However they do have all the pieces in place to create a situation where super-duper criminals like AFO or Machia could have their Quirks removed, and potentially restored after trial or serving a penal term. Which has its own issues, of course, but as with Mr. Kills-all-life in the example above: That guy probably WOULD like to not have his mutant "power." You mean by reverse engineering the quirk eraser bullets, and potentially having Eri restore them later? I doubt mass producing the quirk erasers would be very popular, and I'm not sure people sho aren't the doctor/AFO would even have the expertise to reverse engineer them any time soon anyway. Also lol at the people actually defending an incredibly inhumane super prison for the government to unperson undesirables in. It would be far easier to execute people like AFO who can't be held without measures like that. There's no way that holding them is actually Tartarus's primary purpose, they're just an excuse.
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Jan 18, 2021 15:00
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Staltran posted:Also lol at the people actually defending an incredibly inhumane super prison for the government to unperson undesirables in. It would be far easier to execute people like AFO who can't be held without measures like that. There's no way that holding them is actually Tartarus's primary purpose, they're just an excuse. Yes, but how exactly would this kind of execution work? Unless you literary mean "heroes/police/other government officials can decide that a criminal is impossible to hold/too big a danger for the society and thus can be killed on spot" giving them powers of judge jury and executioner and opening whole another can of worms that equals Tartarus in the ways you can abuse it, you didn't really solve anything? Because if you want execution with a trial or some other mechanisms of accountability, you need some place that is able to hold those criminals until said mechanisms/trials take place and are concluded - in other words, a place like Tartarus, getting us back to square 1.
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Jan 18, 2021 15:50
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Worm's take on a super prison was interesting: Once you go in you never* come out, but the inmates have free rein as long as they don't damage the structure. They ended up sorting themselves into gangs. AfO would have thrived in that environment.
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Jan 18, 2021 16:02
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Lt. Lizard posted:Yes, but how exactly would this kind of execution work? Unless you literary mean "heroes/police/other government officials can decide that a criminal is impossible to hold/too big a danger for the society and thus can be killed on spot" giving them powers of judge jury and executioner and opening whole another can of worms that equals Tartarus in the ways you can abuse it, you didn't really solve anything? Because if you want execution with a trial or some other mechanisms of accountability, you need some place that is able to hold those criminals until said mechanisms/trials take place and are concluded - in other words, a place like Tartarus, getting us back to square 1. Yeah the thing about summarily executing villains who are too dangerous opens up the twofold issue of "who decides someone is dangerous" and "how dangerous is too dangerous to live". It also leads into the uncomfortable "would you really want a dude like Endeavor or Nighteye deciding if a 'villain' dies on the spot" problem. Mass murdering megavillains like AfO and Gigantomachia are pretty easy "yes, kill that fuckin dude, he just leveled a city on purpose" takes, but what about someone like Stain? Would Endeavor have been justified in burning him to ashes when they met in the street? What about the petty punks who attacked USJ? They tried to kill/kidnap children, does that make them eligible to get Judge Dredded even if they're not individually powerful? I don't think this discussion really has a comfortable ethical answer, because so much of our real life concept of criminal justice and rehabilitation hinges on the idea that a person can be rendered temporarily harmless to others in a humane manner, which doesn't make the jump cleanly to a world where a person can have the built-in ability to kill or maim everyone around them with no tools or outside assistance. The story is clearly presenting Tartarus as a nightmare shithole and not a good thing at all. I'm curious what a less nightmarish alternative the story might propose. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 16:49
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I mean, we literally just had the Too Dangerous to Live execution, that's what happened to Twice. He was deemed too dangerous to live and too difficult to capture, so he was killed by governmental decision. That's the example of the alternative to Tartarus for some of these people.
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Jan 18, 2021 16:52
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you can send harvey birdman to stab a guy but you can't launch a missile strike against godzilla? this is the problem with hero society
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Jan 18, 2021 16:55
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean, we literally just had the Too Dangerous to Live execution, that's what happened to Twice. He was deemed too dangerous to live and too difficult to capture, so he was killed by governmental decision. That's the example of the alternative to Tartarus for some of these people. That's true - the story has come down pretty hard on the side of "extrajudicial hero murder is not a good thing", and it's also coming down on "ultramax superjails to lock away megavillains are not a good thing", so I want to see what the presented alternative to these things are in-universe besides "if we fix society there will magically never ever be criminals ever again".
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Jan 18, 2021 17:26
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I don't know why missiles are their only choice for killing Gigantomachia. He was taken down by anesthesia so clearly you could probably come up with some kind of way to kill him via lethal injection.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:28
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In Kingdom Come, the Justice League builds a prison (literally called the Gulag) with the help of Mr. Miracle to house all the douchebag 90s antiheroes that have become the dominant superheroes in Superman's retirement. This is portrayed as a bad thing not only for the ethical problems but also because locking a bunch of superpowered jerks in one place is just a a problem waiting to happen, and (shocker) a prison riot starts that turns into a battle and the UN ends up sending a nuke to end it all before World War Super starts. Basically MHA needs a Captain Marvel figure, is what I'm getting at.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:39
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MHA's already got a kid with godlike power willing to blow himself up to save everyone.
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Jan 18, 2021 18:18
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If they come at anyone for child abuse, it should be All "i'll teach this kid how to gently caress up his 14 year old body in 3 months so that he can learn how to constantly break his bones and be near-boneitis before the first semester of high school is done" Might.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:07
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The fun thing about the fantasy/fiction debates over this stuff is that in their worlds it's a genuinely tough question. In a world where people can be born with basically any sort of superpower, what do you do with the ones who have incredibly dangerous powers that decide (and commit entirely to) harming others and destroying society? If you cannot physically constrain them in a manner that isn't consistent with literal torture, what do you do? I don't really got a good answer tbh. Overhaul's dequirking bullets would be the in-world solution for MHA; removing someone's quirk so they can't just blow up whatever prison you put them in with their minds would work well.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:33
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Even the bullets have problems of their own. What is the line you have to cross before you are deemed to dangerous to keep your Quirk and who gets to decide that and what do you do to keep those bullets from falling into the wrong hands?
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Jan 18, 2021 19:43
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Rhonne posted:Even the bullets have problems of their own. What is the line you have to cross before you are deemed to dangerous to keep your Quirk and who gets to decide that and what do you do to keep those bullets from falling into the wrong hands?
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Jan 18, 2021 19:48
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Fabricated posted:Also that's just the problems from our perspective- given that quirks are viewed as a part of your person, would dequirking someone basically be viewed the same as say cutting the hands off of a thief to stop them from stealing? I'm remembering when Aizawa erased the doctor's quirk and he immediately started rapidly aging.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:16
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Rhonne posted:I don't know why missiles are their only choice for killing Gigantomachia. Yeah exactly, where the hell are the railguns in this universe?
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Jan 18, 2021 20:56
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