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I always pictured him as Bruce Spence.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:37
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Spence would be good, but I humbly suggest Nolan North - see Martin Walker or Steven Heck directly why
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Feb 19, 2021 01:05
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Johnny Joestar posted:shai'tan cooties I'm just disappointed, that dagger just looks not so good to me. I still think it looks like a gold-foil wrapped chocolate, which for a show this big with that kind of budget I thought should look better.
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Feb 19, 2021 03:08
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yeah but it being a giant, foil-wrapped chocolate might explain why it was so tempting-looking
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Feb 19, 2021 03:27
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Mat Cauthon posted:The voice acting role H. Jon Benjamin was born to play. "Mierin. Mierin. MIERIN!" "WHAT?!" "cour'souvra" - Baijan’m’hael
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Feb 19, 2021 04:08
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Soysaucebeast posted:There's got to be some sort of voiceover work done for Rand's/Lews' whole thing. I really can't see any way they can do that without having something like a voiceover or an actor onscreen that everyone else can't see or something. There is absolutely no way to convey that via Rand's actor just acting. Depending on how it's done it could come off as cheesy as hell, but I am willing to reserve judgement on this one. Seems like the best way to do it would be to use the visual medium. Do a Beautiful Mind thing, where there's a character that only Rand sees. As it escalates LTT can talk at him until Rand breaks and says something back, cut to the same scene without him there and everyone looking awkward. That kind of deal. Also, that dagger is for sure a steel blade in a gold scabbard. Not sure if that helps anyone, but you aren't supposed to look at that and think it'll cut anybody.
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Feb 19, 2021 17:14
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I mean, that kind of device is so common anymore it almost seems like a no-brainer. BSG for example.
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Feb 19, 2021 17:15
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Data Graham posted:I mean, that kind of device is so common anymore it almost seems like a no-brainer. BSG for example. yeah the only thing that "Lews Therin as an imaginary person only Rand can see on screen" doesn't solve is the way LTT's thoughts casually intrude upon Rand's, without him always noticing, earlier on while he's still more sane but that's not the biggest sacrifice, you can't do everything
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Feb 19, 2021 17:20
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eke out posted:yeah the only thing that "Lews Therin as an imaginary person only Rand can see on screen" doesn't solve is the way LTT's thoughts casually intrude upon Rand's, without him always noticing, earlier on while he's still more sane That and Mat accidentally speaking the old tongue can be done through carefully written dialogue. Can't say yet if it will but it for sure could.
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Feb 19, 2021 17:30
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I hope he just starts using a cheesy Italian accent.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:10
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The tonal shift when he's speaking old tongue can still be done, and then when someone comments do a flash back a minute with him doing the words in the old tongue, sounds pretty easy.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:14
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Have him speak in a different voice, or with voice altering effects like in Preacher, or Jason Lee in Dogma
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Feb 19, 2021 19:16
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Data Graham posted:Have him speak in a different voice, or with voice altering effects like in Preacher, or Jason Lee in Dogma In the book his grammar changed quite a bit when he started speaking the Old Tongue, so for the reveal scene that would be enough. I don't think a fancy effect would really work with it.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:21
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eke out posted:yeah the only thing that "Lews Therin as an imaginary person only Rand can see on screen" doesn't solve is the way LTT's thoughts casually intrude upon Rand's, without him always noticing, earlier on while he's still more sane They intrude because Lews Therin isn't real. It's just Rand saying those crazy thoughts and memories of a past life aren't mine because I'm not crazy, it's the other person in my head that's crazy. Later on when Rand himself is acting unhinged or dangerous and 'Lews Therin' pops in he's usually mentioned and depicted as being rational and sane. Most of their interactions throughout the book are a kid who hears a voice in his head that is usually telling him he should either harm himself or other people. I have no idea how they're going to depict it but I hope they don't go the route that Lews Therin is a magical real person sharing Rand's head and instead show that's just what Rand is telling himself when he is in fact mentally ill.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:22
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uPen posted:I have no idea how they're going to depict it but I hope they don't go the route that Lews Therin is a magical real person sharing Rand's head and instead show that's just what Rand is telling himself when he is in fact mentally ill. (madness spoilers) To be fair, it's explicitly both. Like It's mentioned that hearing past lives is a "common" form of the taint madness, and the person being in fact the real dead person is worse, not better. And LTT definitely and consistently knows things Rand couldn't, so it's not so easy to dismiss it as Semirhage loving with him. Now if you mean that could be dropped for the series due to evolving attitudes, I'd probably agree, although it would require some things be handled differently.
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Feb 19, 2021 21:30
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uPen posted:They intrude because Lews Therin isn't real. It's just Rand saying those crazy thoughts and memories of a past life aren't mine because I'm not crazy, it's the other person in my head that's crazy. Later on when Rand himself is acting unhinged or dangerous and 'Lews Therin' pops in he's usually mentioned and depicted as being rational and sane. Related to the madness, He explicitly is real. He intrudes because of Rand's madness, but it is Lews Therin. The entire Borderlander method of verifying he is the Dragon relies on him having the memories of Lews Therin that he could have gotten no other way. Unless the Saidin madness allows you to know facts that were known to maybe 3 people 3000 years ago, Lews Therin is in Rand's head. Rand is still mentally ill, but that's just how he gets in not the source of the things he says. The Forsaken are aware that this sort of thing can and has happened before, the past life is intruding on the current one as a symptom of the illness but it's still a real person they're hearing.
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Feb 20, 2021 04:27
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The memories are explicitly real. The Lews Therin he talks to in his head is not him interacting with a person that killed himself thousands of years ago, it's a projection to help him cope with what is happening to him. Memories from past lives coming back is A Thing, Moiraine is unsurprised when Mat speaks the old tongue before being exposed to any of his sources of magical weirdness. In a later book, I believe we have a group of nobles commenting on how common it is for people to randomly start speaking a sentence in the old tongue. We have multiple examples of other people with memories of their past lives that are able to successfully live with it without their past lives speaking to them. Mat decides to own those memories, he lost his old ones and now these are his and he's going to use them and thrive. Birgitte clings to memories that she's losing but is able to differentiate between the self that she currently is vs her past selves. The forsaken that are reincarnated are able to say that used to be me, but the new me is something different even though I remember who I used to be. The body bends the mind or whatever the line was to explain one of them becoming bisexual. Rand talks to a voice in his head because he's a kid who suddenly is dealing with an incredible amount of stress and is starting to remember a past life that was terrible and ended in suicide. He rejects that that is him and instead, walls it off and says that's the insane person in my head, I am someone different. The memories are independent of the taint, the taint is what causes his rapid turn towards violence, an uncontrollable temper, and OCD. Lews Therin is dead, the persona Rand creates is something else. When Rand accepts that he is his own person that can remember the life Lews Therin lived he never speaks to the persona again.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:22
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And what of the fact that Rand tells Cadsuane he is the only living man who was properly raised as Aes Sedai? Or that he is hundreds of years older than her?
Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 20, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 05:27
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uPen posted:The memories are explicitly real. The Lews Therin he talks to in his head is not him interacting with a person that killed himself thousands of years ago, it's a projection to help him cope with what is happening to him. Memories from past lives coming back is A Thing, Moiraine is unsurprised when Mat speaks the old tongue before being exposed to any of his sources of magical weirdness. In a later book, I believe we have a group of nobles commenting on how common it is for people to randomly start speaking a sentence in the old tongue. We have multiple examples of other people with memories of their past lives that are able to successfully live with it without their past lives speaking to them. Mat decides to own those memories, he lost his old ones and now these are his and he's going to use them and thrive. Birgitte clings to memories that she's losing but is able to differentiate between the self that she currently is vs her past selves. The forsaken that are reincarnated are able to say that used to be me, but the new me is something different even though I remember who I used to be. The body bends the mind or whatever the line was to explain one of them becoming bisexual. It's not quite so clear that the memories are independent of the taint. Semirhage in fact implies the opposite.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:27
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:And what of the fact that Rand tells Cadsuane he is the only living man who was properly raised as Aes Sedai? Or that he is hundreds of years older than her? Because at that point he's accepted the memories and integrated them into what he thinks of as 'him' rather than walling them off.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:38
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For more people having memories of their past lives, what about the guy that goes from thinking wow steam is pretty cool, I'm going to invent the internal combustion engine, rails and trains in the span of like a few months. Or a woman who says fireworks are neat, I'm going to leap directly from this to Napoleonic artillery. They may not be explicitly remembering that they used to be someone else but something is pointing them in a direction they shouldn't even be able to conceive of.Basileus777 posted:It's not quite so clear that the memories are independent of the taint. Semirhage in fact implies the opposite. Semirhage is a psychopath and every word that comes out of her mouth is designed to hurt other people, nothing she says can be taken in any context except what could she say in that moment that would cause the most pain around her.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:42
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uPen posted:For more people having memories of their past lives, what about the guy that goes from thinking wow steam is pretty cool, I'm going to invent the internal combustion engine, rails and trains in the span of like a few months. Or a woman who says fireworks are neat, I'm going to leap directly from this to Napoleonic artillery. They may not be explicitly remembering that they used to be someone else but something is pointing them in a direction they shouldn't even be able to conceive of. The one inventor designed his steam engine as vehicle propulsion from the beginning - outright calling it a "steamhorse". It's a pretty major leap, but it was what he intended. Aludra's even simpler - she sees Rand use a "nightflower" as an improvised weapon against Trollocs in Book 2. Once she had the idea in her head, it isn't exactly difficult to start working out how to make a dedicated version.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:52
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Gnoman posted:The one inventor designed his steam engine as vehicle propulsion from the beginning - outright calling it a "steamhorse". It's a pretty major leap, but it was what he intended. Exactly, something inside them remembers how the world used to be. Aludra is able to take the idea of I can use gunpowder to propel an object at someone and skips hundreds of years of military tactics, metallurgy, chemistry, and lands on a mass-producible extremely effective field artillery piece.
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Feb 20, 2021 06:18
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She came up with a bell set on the side, strapped to a wagon. Such weapons were in use as early as the 1200s. The only truly advanced part of Aludra's "dragons" is the bursting shell - which is an obvious development of aerial fireworks. There's no requirement at all for her to have any leaking memories.
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Feb 20, 2021 06:48
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uPen posted:Exactly, something inside them remembers how the world used to be. Aludra is able to take the idea of I can use gunpowder to propel an object at someone and skips hundreds of years of military tactics, metallurgy, chemistry, and lands on a mass-producible extremely effective field artillery piece. I dont agree with this take at all, but im interested to see where else you go with it
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Feb 20, 2021 06:58
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That's fair! Take what you want from the books. You could also say it's ta'veren twisting chance so that she happens to land on something that works instead of spending decades perfecting it. It would have been nice to get a real prequel or sequel series, we're dropped into a world of such extreme stagnation that suddenly has enormous leaps forward. The Borderlands have been holding for 3,000 years and they're fighting Trollocs with swords and cavalry charges?
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Feb 20, 2021 07:19
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Lew Therin Telamon is not "real", the climax of The Gathering Storm makes it very clear. uPen explained it already, but I think it's obvious that while the memories of his past life coming back to Rand are very real, the LTT persona is not something independent of Rand's mind. Psychology people probably could explain it, somethin like dissociative disorder or so. Basically, it's a result of Rand suffering tremendous PTSD, getting magic crazy from being a saidin channeler, and memories of a very lovely past life returning to him. His mind simply can't cope with all that, and so it invents the LTT persona to not break completely. Rand recalls things from LTT's time before that persona every appears in the text, like calling Lanfear Mierin, babbling to Asmodean about how he knows Sammael was behind the latest attack on him, because he tried something very similar in the Age of Legends, etc. But as Rand gets more and more traumatized, the LTT persona becomes more and more "real" in Rand's head. And importantly, while Lews Therin starts out completely insane, at some point they swap roles, and at the end "Rand" is the one who's more insane. He is still just something made up by a horribly traumatized mind. The climax in Veins of Gold spells it out: quote:He knew—somehow—that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been. Now, you can point to the memories and say that if they are real, then the LTT persona must be real, too. But I see it differently. As uPen has pointed out, there are other cases of characters remembering snippets of their past lives, yet this doesn't mean they have a separate personality in their head. And I find it pretty important that the specific thing Rand suffers from - hearing the voice of his past life - is something that predates the taint, since Graendal likely wasn't working as a psychologist anymore after the Dark One was freed, yet Semirhage refers to even her being usually unable to make patients reintegrate said personalities. So this is something that has happened before, for whatever reason, the Pattern decided to give some people back the memories of their past lives. But to me it also clearly spells out that this is "simply" a psychological issue, otherwise Graendal wouldn't have been able to "reintegrate" (Semirhage's term!) those people. Reintegration implies integrating something back that got separated, like a mind becoming dissociative after too much trauma. There's some magical insanity in the mix of Rand's issues, but the LTT is at it's core just a coping mechanism, never a real person he's holding conversations with. It also wouldn't make sense from the setting for Lews Therin to be a real person. Who is he supposed to talk to? The disembodied soul of LTT? But that's impossible, because we know that LTT's soul is not disembodies right now, becase Rand is the soul of LTT reborn in a new body, just without his past memories (at first). Which is why having a ghost image of LTT for Rand to talk to would go too far into implying that Lew Thering is "real", which I wrote like two pages up when I brought this up in the first place. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Feb 20, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 09:09
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I mean sure, but Mat had to deal with a shitload of past memories being crammed into his head, and was about as sane as when he started.
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Feb 20, 2021 09:13
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True enough, but there are still differences. For once, those were just random lives. Or better, people who had made deals with the Finn, but still no relation to Mat. Rand got his past life, including such fine memories as feeling the Shadow's counterstrike that tainted Saidin, or killing his whole family, including his beloved Ilyena. And Mat is not under the same pressure as the person foretold to destroy the world, and save it. Does not have to reckon with the fact that prophecy says he will have to die to defeat the Dark One. How would you react to reading: "Your blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."? Mat doesn't have these huge responsibilities, doesn't get tortured shockingly regularly, doesn't have TWO never healing wounds that leave him in constant physical pain, and doesn't have the forces of the Shadow out to specifically break his mind. And also doesn't channel tainted Saidin. If you leave out Rand's past memories, and even the taint on the male half of the True Source, it's still a miracle that he stays as sane as he does through all that he suffers from. Like, is it any wonder that Rand became claustrophobic? Does that surprise anybody? Rand's descent into madness is so well written, and Mat suffers comparatively little, it's no wonder he stays sane while his friend does not.
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Feb 20, 2021 09:52
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A lot of the forsaken get reborn so it could just be LLT getting reborn
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Feb 20, 2021 16:19
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My take was the madness was the dark ones way of merging together peoples' threads in the pattern. Sometimes they're aspects of people in the past aka infantilisms, paranoid fears, or speaking extinct languages. Sometimes it's their inner monologue.
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Feb 20, 2021 16:37
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Gnoman posted:She came up with a bell set on the side, strapped to a wagon. Such weapons were in use as early as the 1200s. The only truly advanced part of Aludra's "dragons" is the bursting shell - which is an obvious development of aerial fireworks. There's no requirement at all for her to have any leaking memories. Henry Shrapnel's "spherical case shot" was invented at the tail end of the 18th century not because nobody before him thought of "what if explosions good" but because that was about when advances in industrial metallurgy made it possible to build one. Notably, Napoleon sunk quite a bit of time and resources into trying to duplicate them, to poor results because French industry just wasn't up to the task. But the real jump that Aludra skips past is doctrinal--early cannons in European warfare were siege weapons, full stop, starting from Charles VIII's celebrated campaign of 1494. It took centuries of experience, metallurgy, and messy failure to get from that to the cannon as a weapon that can decide field battles, which is where Mat and Aludra start thinking. I do agree that this is less a subtle hint at memory leakage and more nobody caaaaares
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Feb 20, 2021 20:08
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I thought it went without saying that the sudden technological development was heavily influenced by the Pattern saying "Now it's time for there to be tech" and the world contorting itself to make it happen.
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Feb 20, 2021 21:12
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I don't think the way the protagonists kept discovering ancient long-lost magical spells was realistic, either. In the actual world it takes years, decades, even centuries of careful research and study to come up with even one new magical spell!
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Feb 20, 2021 21:41
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Reiterpallasch posted:Henry Shrapnel's "spherical case shot" was invented at the tail end of the 18th century not because nobody before him thought of "what if explosions good" but because that was about when advances in industrial metallurgy made it possible to build one. Notably, Napoleon sunk quite a bit of time and resources into trying to duplicate them, to poor results because French industry just wasn't up to the task. But the real jump that Aludra skips past is doctrinal--early cannons in European warfare were siege weapons, full stop, starting from Charles VIII's celebrated campaign of 1494. It took centuries of experience, metallurgy, and messy failure to get from that to the cannon as a weapon that can decide field battles, which is where Mat and Aludra start thinking. Shrapnel's shell was not the first example of exploding ammunition. That came in 1376 at the latest. The principle difficulty was getting the fuse to light reliably and burn exactly the right amount of time. This is something an expert firework maker is ideally suited to solve. Meanwhile, there is evidence that the Ming dynasty used cannon in field battles as early as the 1300s.
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Feb 20, 2021 21:52
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I remember wondering where the development of matches fit into the description of everyone smoking when I first read it. I can’t recall if I satisfied myself about it
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Feb 20, 2021 22:50
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That's a better candidate for "advanced past knowledge" on Aludra's part. Friction matches of the sort she was trying to introduce weren't developed until 1826.
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Feb 20, 2021 22:59
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Gnoman posted:Shrapnel's shell was not the first example of exploding ammunition. That came in 1376 at the latest. The principle difficulty was getting the fuse to light reliably and burn exactly the right amount of time. This is something an expert firework maker is ideally suited to solve. I was thinking about the "spreading shot" Mat mentions to Elayne, but on reflection I think that might just be canister. Every Ming gunpowder weapon I'm aware of is either a gonne-type thing or iron hoop-and-stave construction, not a large bronze piece, and definitely not mobile in the way that the Band uses them. Mat's cannons conduct a defense in depth through a forest, moving from one prepared defensive position to the next, which is something that would be tricky even with ACW pieces.
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Feb 20, 2021 23:15
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Data Graham posted:I remember wondering where the development of matches fit into the description of everyone smoking when I first read it. I can’t recall if I satisfied myself about it In real life people used tallow candles for cheap day to day lighting and tinder or short straws as short-term flames for lighting things. You usually had a fire going for cooking or some other occupation, and at minimum some banked embers, so it was easy enough to get one lit. Out on the trail is a different matter, probably just didn't smoke until you had bedded down and started a fire (or at the start of your journey I guess)
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Feb 20, 2021 23:45
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When Mat's breaking into the Stone there's a bit where he talks about his firebox, which is a small metal box that contains a hot coal banked in sand that's used as a portable fast firestarter.
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Feb 21, 2021 00:37
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