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The identification of the FO as Nazis basically seems to come down to “they’re authoritarian military fetishists that blow up civilians” which also describes a lot of supposed liberal democracies throughout history.
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Mar 3, 2021 19:51
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Glottis posted:Would it have been weird if there was a planet that was mostly black people? Cause yeah it makes no sense that there's like 4 of them in total. Apparently Lucas wanted to have Bespin be mostly, if not entirely, populated by nonwhite people. The EU also segregated nonwhite people into different "near-human" races, which is a whole other can of worms.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:00
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The identification of the FO as Nazis basically seems to come down to “they’re authoritarian military fetishists that blow up civilians” which also describes a lot of supposed liberal democracies throughout history. Yeah, ignoring the bourgeoisie liberalism that unwittingly puts those types of institutions in power is why we are where we are in real life.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:08
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The identification of the FO as Nazis basically seems to come down to “they’re authoritarian military fetishists that blow up civilians” which also describes a lot of supposed liberal democracies throughout history.  they are explicitly modeled on the nazis what the gently caressJ.J. Abrams Says Nazis Inspired the New Star Wars Villains posted:“That all came out of conversations about what would have happened if the Nazis all went to Argentina but then started working together again?’” Abrams said in the interview.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:47
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I never thought too much about it, but I always had the vague impression that in the SW universe humans = americans/europeans (so mostly white, even though still too white, I guess). We foreigners are kinda of represented by the aliens
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Mar 3, 2021 21:50
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"Authoritarian" isn't really a coherent political concept. It's not like Leia's revanchists are just going to sit back and let you build a political movement they disagree with because of their respect for your inalienable rights - look what they did to the FO!
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Mar 3, 2021 21:54
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Leia mostly just murderously hates coruscant and all her other policies follow from that. She's a sort of space rural southern demagogue type I suppose
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Mar 3, 2021 21:57
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
Bizarrely enough, they had the same train of thought when they were devising the Final Order in Episode IX, seemingly forgetting that they'd already used that as the rationale for the First Order in TFA. 
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Mar 3, 2021 21:59
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
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Mar 3, 2021 22:02
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Yo dawg I heard you like Nazis in Argentina, so I put some Nazis in Argentina in your Nazis in Argentina
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Mar 3, 2021 22:02
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Robot Style posted:
RoS is, without question, stunningly intellectually bankrupt.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:14
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
You do know that Nazi ideology was inspired and refined right here in the good ol’ US of A and championed by US policy makers at the time, yes?
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Mar 3, 2021 22:16
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I mean the FO's lack of ideological coherence could actually have been exploited. They start out as neo-Nazis, Hux is a clear True Believer, Snoke's motivations are unclear, it's probably just a power grab for him, but by the end of TLJ he's dead, Kylo is in charge, and he's sort of just obsessed with burning everything the gently caress down. That's actually kind of interesting to me, the one major military force left in the galaxy and it's just being used to pursue one man's vendettas. The rest of the galaxy is probably anarchy by now, by default nobody is in charge anymore. Instead Kylo finds the Emperor and it's just back to business as usual. That to me is the biggest waste in the whole thing- what was different about the sequels was largely ignored.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:20
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The Empire was America throughout the original movies and this is one thing the sequels have carried through
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Mar 3, 2021 22:20
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ruddiger posted:You do know that Nazi ideology was inspired and refined right here in the good ol’ US of A and championed by US policy makers at the time, yes? if u think about it america was the real nazis in ww2
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Mar 3, 2021 22:26
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:if u think about it america was the real nazis in ww2 The term "premature anti-fascist" didn't come from a parallel reality, friend.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:37
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:if u think about it america was the real nazis in ww2 Ask some Japanese-Americans how well they though their grandparents were treated during WW2.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:50
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:if u think about it america was the real nazis in ww2 It’s not like we had any internment camps or race riots sparked by white servicemen or anything tho, right?
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Mar 3, 2021 23:00
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ruddiger posted:You do know that Nazi ideology was inspired and refined right here in the good ol’ US of A and championed by US policy makers at the time, yes? this is a pathetically simplistic reduction that takes a grain of truth (nazi ideology had a wide range of inspirations that include but are not limited to America's westward expansion, segregation, native genocide, and industrialization epitomized by Fordism), adds on extraneous nonsense (you're welcome to try and explain how nazi ideology was "refined" in the united states by any appreciable degree), and tries to apply it to a film where the visuals are very clearly and explicitly using the aesthetics, uniforms, and weaponry of Nazi Germany for the Empire. e: like seriously the enemy soldiers are called stormtroopers. Their helmets are modeled after the Stahlhelm. They carry MG-42s. This isn't loving subtle! Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 23:01
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I thought the original Empire and Stormtroopers in ANH were supposed to be the US circa the Vietnam War
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Mar 3, 2021 23:09
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Yep. Lucas' early notes say:George Lucas posted:Theme: Aquilae is a small independent country like North Vietnam threatened by a neighbor or provincial rebellion, instigated by gangsters aided by empire. Fight to get rightful planet back. Half of system has been lost to gangsters … The empire is like America ten years from now, after gangsters assassinated the Emperor and were elevated to power in a rigged election … We are at a turning point: fascism or revolution. Though steeping the Empire in Nazi imagery definitely helps to drive the point home.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:18
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There’s children sitting in cages on American soil at this very moment. But at least we’re not nazis!
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Mar 3, 2021 23:19
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Lt. Danger posted:I thought the original Empire and Stormtroopers in ANH were supposed to be the US circa the Vietnam War The concept of the scrappy rebels fighting a massive empire was inspired by the US against the Viet Cong, but aesthetically it's all Nazi Germany. The original film has a wide variety of influences, some less subtle than others.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:20
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drat it sounds like fascism in Star Wars is more complicated than we thought. maybe in real life too. makes u think
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Mar 3, 2021 23:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:(you're welcome to try and explain how nazi ideology was "refined" in the united states by any appreciable degree) US doctors were championing eugenics in the 1900s, giving the nazis an air of false scientific legitimacy to industrialize their ideology in the coming decades. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/ https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/us/eugenics-craze-america-pbs/index.html https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler But please, keep downplaying America’s influence on nazi ideology. It’s proving a great working example in regards towards the same liberal policies in Star Wars that otherize the crimes of the past in order to continue perpetuating them in the present.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:54
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The concept of the scrappy rebels fighting a massive empire was inspired by the US against the Viet Cong, but aesthetically it's all Nazi Germany. The original film has a wide variety of influences, some less subtle than others. 
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Mar 3, 2021 23:57
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ruddiger posted:But please, keep downplaying America’s influence on nazi ideology. yes. this is exactly what I've done. you got me. I am the insidious lib in the thread who has steadfastly argued america has done nothing wrong. gently caress oooooffffff
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Mar 4, 2021 00:12
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Which was apparently unintentional, or at least subconscious.The Making of Star Wars posted:Another minor controversy the press got hold of was the rumor that Lucas had deliberately used Leni Riefenstahl’s Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will (1935) for the throne room scene. “The truth of that particular situation is that I hadn’t seen it for about fifteen years,” Lucas says. “I had wanted to see it again because, early in the writing process, I was thinking of doing a scene with the Emperor on the Empire planet, and I wanted to do that like Triumph of the Will. But it unfortunately got published that I was going to try to see Triumph of the Will and use it in Star Wars ; evidently somebody read that somewhere and then looked at the end of the movie and thought that looked just like Triumph of the Will. But the end of the movie is just what happens when you put a large military group together and give out an award.”
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Mar 4, 2021 00:17
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Acebuckeye13 posted:yes. this is exactly what I've done. you got me. I am the insidious lib in the thread who has steadfastly argued america has done nothing wrong. No, you’re the lib using false equivalencies to deflect. I didn’t say you argued America has done nothing wrong. I said you downplayed American influence on nazi ideology. quote:this is a pathetically simplistic reduction Unless you’re now arguing the definition of downplaying. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 00:22
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The point of making it a fantasy instead of explicitly nazi germany or vietnam era america is so you can make the connection between them, other similar governments, and start asking constructive questions.
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Mar 4, 2021 00:22
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Right it’s not a strict allegory but it is very applicable
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Mar 4, 2021 00:52
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ruddiger posted:No, you’re the lib using false equivalencies to deflect. I didn’t say you argued America has done nothing wrong. I said you downplayed American influence on nazi ideology. Man you are being absolutely ridiculous. Like, first off: My original reply on this argument was against this post: YOLOsubmarine posted:The identification of the FO as Nazis basically seems to come down to “they’re authoritarian military fetishists that blow up civilians” which also describes a lot of supposed liberal democracies throughout history. This itself is a ridiculous post, firstly because it completely ignores the entire aesthetic component tying the First Order to Nazi Germany, which in film, a visual medium, is a pretty big deal, and because it ignores the stated influences of the people who actually made the movie. The First Order is identified as Nazis by the audience because the film visually identifies them as Nazis. Your response to my post was that Nazi ideology was inspired by policies in the United States. Which is true! And I acknowledged! But it's also missing the point! because the connections between the First Order order and Nazi Germany isn't about their policy positions (aside from being mad they lost and obliterating the government that beat them), but are almost entirely aesthetic. Which I pointed out, multiple times! And you have not bothered to address! Now, you are accusing me of downplaying American influence on Nazi policy, and posting information about the eugenics movement as though I weren't already aware of it and hadn't already acknowledged it. Let me be clear: Hitler and others took very clear inspiration from the worst crimes of the United States—particularly the policy of Manifest Destiny, which directly inspired the Nazi desire for lebensraum and the war in the east against Poland and the Soviet Union. But Nazi policy was not refined in the United States, and that is what I take severe objection to—as even the greatest crimes of America, which are a very high bare to clear, pale in comparison to the industrialized murder of Nazi Germany. With that said, it is obviously worth noting that Lucas was absolutely inspired by the idea of America becoming Nazi Germany, which is where the prequels come from, and there the films made very obvious (And very timely!) connections between the downfall of the Republic and the United States—because even if the United States was not and is not Nazi Germany, it absolutely had (and has!) the capacity to become it. And this is symbolized in the film as the aesthetics of the 1920s/30s-inspired Republic gradually becoming replaced with the aesthetics of the Nazi Germany-inspired Empire. But the films are trying to make a very deliberate point with these aesthetics, and it's one I am staggered that people have somehow missed.
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Mar 4, 2021 01:23
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What are the visual things that tie the FO to Nazi germany in the film I don’t care what Abrams says.
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Mar 4, 2021 01:25
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They're having a Triumph Of The Will rally when they fire the death star laser at Coruscant
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Mar 4, 2021 01:28
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euphronius posted:What are the visual things that tie the FO to Nazi germany in the film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA5edVGBJKs this whole scene???
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Mar 4, 2021 01:29
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euphronius posted:What are the visual things that tie the FO to Nazi germany in the film well this is a pretty obvious one  e: lol beaten twice
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Mar 4, 2021 01:29
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Yoda's "lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has" speech was a great moment in Attack of the Clones that was funny, not laugh-out-loud funny, but probably the funniest prequel line
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Mar 4, 2021 01:29
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Many cultures have military assemblies and speeches. The nazis didn’t have space lasers. The speech was in English. I’m not trying to be stupid. What ties the FO to Nazi germany ?
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Mar 4, 2021 01:30
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Acebuckeye13 posted:well this is a pretty obvious one What is specifically Nazi about this
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Mar 4, 2021 01:31
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The United States wiped out the majority of the native population and our government and institutions still commit crimes against those nations. But back to Star Wars. What’s the indigenous population of Coruscant again?
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Mar 4, 2021 01:32
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