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KazigluBey posted:If he said it was needed to be done and apologized then I guess everyone just believes him and moves on, it's that simple. Like, really? His Quirk absolutely was not overhyped. Having near-infinite ability to clone not only yourself but anyone you want is immensely dangerous. Even if his clones die in one hit they are disposable in a way heroes are not. It only took one of his clones to stab someone in the back after all. Also an AoE hero isn't exactly going to be able to throw their AoE into the middle of a crowd of allies especially when the end result is that the allies will take more meaningful damage than the clones.
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Mar 19, 2021 23:24
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KazigluBey posted:If he said it needed to be done and apologized then I guess everyone just believes him and moves on, it's that simple. Like, really? Like we, the reader, know the moral and emotional background to when he pulled out Sad Man's Parade. What the heroes would know is that a satellite photo showed that three city blocks of that town were completely filled with Twice clones. Nessus fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 23:31
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Nessus posted:Probably most of what these guys knew about Twice was "former low-grade criminal, insanely powerful Quirk, appears to be tight buddies with Shigaraki, comma, the guy who just did all of that poo poo." We know a lot more about Twice, and I would not be shocked if Toga tells other people about him in detail as part of her resolution, but a reaction boiling down to, "Well that wasn't very nice of you," seems entirely plausible. I also feel like it's worth noting that like... we have sympathy for Twice for seeing a lot but just hearing about him probably isn't enough to put people on his side. At the end of the day he's still a criminal and a murderer who actively engaged in plans to kill innocent people and children. We know why he did and why the League was important to him but he's still party to a whole lot of murders and ruined lives. Like we can understand why these characters feel on the outs and feel that society has failed them and so-on but they also are brutal mass murderers with countless innocent bodies in their wake. It's going to be hard for someone whose family member was turned into ash or stabbed a billion times or set on fire to really go "oh well they had a tough life so I feel bad about them getting killed in the midst of planning violent terrorist attacks." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 23:35
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ImpAtom posted:His Quirk absolutely was not overhyped. Having near-infinite ability to clone not only yourself but anyone you want is immensely dangerous. Even if his clones die in one hit they are disposable in a way heroes are not. It only took one of his clones to stab someone in the back after all. There were clear limits to his quirk, those limits could be emphasized (if the issue is a meta-level worry about his impact to the story), and if it was such an obvious and immediate We Win button why was it never once even brought up as a possible tactic or option by the VA? Limited use in the camp assault, Dabi clone went down like sacks of potatoes, escape made infinity harder because Twice never uses his quirk again. Limited use during the Yakuza arc, albeit because him and Toga were not really there to help them, but the Rappa clone gets taken down instantly before it can even start thinking about using its quirk. Only impressive use against the Liberation Front guys and only because Toga was perceived to be in danger, and it was against underwhelming enemies. Like, again and again we're shown very sub-par usage of the quirk, the VA seemed to have no real appreciation of it either, AFO doesn't even blink in Twice's direction, etc... Seems weird how Hawks' PoV is just taken as Word of God when everything we've been shown contradicts it. Like, the snake guy who got merked feels almost like an obligatory "can't make him look too sympathetic" thrown out to keep things balanced, lol. And the heroes throughout that fight brought down way WAY more dangerous villains non-lethally, villains far more dangerous than "man with knife", so that last bit really doesn't scan to me. Nessus posted:Probably most of what these guys knew about Twice was "former low-grade criminal, insanely powerful Quirk, appears to be tight buddies with Shigaraki, comma, the guy who just did all of that poo poo." We know a lot more about Twice, and I would not be shocked if Toga tells other people about him in detail as part of her resolution, but a reaction boiling down to, "Well that wasn't very nice of you," seems entirely plausible. Given that so far no other hero has killed anyone (am I wrong, please correct me) or in the least the emphasis is VERY much on non-lethality (like, to a self-sacrificing degree), yes, it seems weird that even if people don't have all this info we do for the reaction to be this muted, ESPECIALLY amongst the heroes at the hospital. If this kind of thing had been established as happening even rarely I'd maybe be more OK with the reaction, but it seems very out of place in the setting as presented. Like, it comes across as business as usual, just another day on the beat. What can you do, you know? These things happen.
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Mar 19, 2021 23:40
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KazigluBey posted:There were clear limits to his quirk, those limits could be emphasized (if the issue is a meta-level worry about his impact to the story), and if it was such an obvious and immediate We Win button why was it never once even brought up as a possible tactic or option by the VA? Limited use in the camp assault, Dabi clone went down like sacks of potatoes, escape made infinity harder because Twice never uses his quirk again. Limited use during the Yakuza arc, albeit because him and Toga were not really there to help them, but the Rappa clone gets taken down instantly before it can even start thinking about using its quirk. Only impressive use against the Liberation Front guys and only because Toga was perceived to be in danger, and it was against underwhelming enemies. Like, again and again we're shown very sub-par usage of the quirk, the VA seemed to have no real appreciation of it either, AFO doesn't even blink in Twice's direction, etc... Seems weird how Hawks' PoV is just taken as Word of God when everything we've been shown contradicts it Uh, were you paying attention to that arc? The entire point of Twice is that he had tremendous trauma from the time his clones went on a murdering spree and that blunted his abilities massively. It was only once he got his arm broken and didn't disappear that he was able to confirm he was the real one and that is what unleashed Sad Man's Parade. He got a significant drat powerup at that point. KazigluBey posted:Given that so far no other hero has killed anyone (am I wrong, please correct me) or in the least the emphasis is VERY much on non-lethality (like, to a self-sacrificing degree), yes, it seems weird that even if people don't have all this info we do for the reaction to be this muted, ESPECIALLY amongst the heroes at the hospital. If this kind of thing had been established as happening even rarely I'd maybe be more OK with the reaction, but it seems very out of place in the setting as presented. It has been stated that heroes have killed in the line of duty. Not murdered like Hawks tried to do but killed? Yes. Endevor flat-out killed Nomu and has shown his willingness to kill others which is part of why he's so threatening. All-Might didn't really need to but that was because he was All-Might and he eventually ended up doing his damned best to kill All For One. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 23:44
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KazigluBey posted:If he said it needed to be done and apologized then I guess everyone just believes him and moves on, it's that simple. Like, really? Where are you getting the durability halving thing from? I don't remember anything like that. But even assuming they're completely trivial to destroy, their offensive capabilities are pretty much untouched. Twice clones can propagate fast, like we saw a bit before Hawks killed him. You give him a few seconds and oops, there are a dozen (pre-enhancement) Shiggy clones disintegrating city blocks. I certainly buy that if Hawks hadn't killed him when he did every hero in that city would have been screwed. And if (a) Twice arrived with Machia then who knows what might have happened. Pretty good odds that they'd have killed Endeavor/Todo/Eraser/Bakugo etc and captured Deku before leaving.
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Mar 19, 2021 23:50
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Dolash posted:Just as a hypothetical, let's say the school actually closes in response to the crisis and the cast of students slims down to just the ones dedicated enough to keep going (or at least not disappear from the stage altogether). Who do you think that'd end up being? As a result of recent events, Koda has lost his faith in humanity and realized that humans are just animals. Having now evolved his power, through this revelation, to being able to control humans, he is now an S-class villain on par with All For One. Staltran posted:Where are you getting the durability halving thing from? I don't remember anything like that. But even assuming they're completely trivial to destroy, their offensive capabilities are pretty much untouched. Twice clones can propagate fast, like we saw a bit before Hawks killed him. You give him a few seconds and oops, there are a dozen (pre-enhancement) Shiggy clones disintegrating city blocks. I certainly buy that if Hawks hadn't killed him when he did every hero in that city would have been screwed. And if (a) Twice arrived with Machia then who knows what might have happened. Pretty good odds that they'd have killed Endeavor/Todo/Eraser/Bakugo etc and captured Deku before leaving. Can't he only do the "repeated cloning" thing with himself?
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Mar 19, 2021 23:52
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Ytlaya posted:As a result of recent events, Koda has lost his faith in humanity and realized that humans are just animals. He was at least able to copy the entire League when he went up to confront Destro.
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Mar 19, 2021 23:55
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ImpAtom posted:Uh, were you paying attention to that arc? The entire point of Twice is that he had tremendous trauma from the time his clones went on a murdering spree and that blunted his abilities massively. It was only once he got his arm broken and didn't disappear that he was able to confirm he was the real one and that is what unleashed Sad Man's Parade. He got a significant drat powerup at that point. Fair point, I had forgotten he was weaker until that point, but again, it seems to me the only person who evaluated Twice as being that dangerous was Hawks, and neither he nor the VA seemed clued in. I've said before that people ITT posted that Horikoshi felt he'd written himself into a corner with Twice, but then if that only applies after the Lib Arc why even power him up at all? And if it was just that stretch that was the problem, why not fix it instead of applying this odd tonal shift? In the very least it's weird that THIS moment stands out as "villain to dangerous to let live". Why wasn't the same rational used against Gigantomachia, I'd bet a dangerous enough poison like a neurotoxin would have worked far better than sleep juice, and for choosing to go non-lethal we see real massive consequences. Again and again, the story show very VERY dangerous villains get brought down non-lethally as an almost setting-defining trait of heroes and part of how the system seems to function, so to suddenly pull this 180 here and then not even dwell on the dissonance of it in regards to everything else just seems weird to me.  Like, I want to be clear, this wouldn't be bothering me anywhere NEAR as badly if there was even just a crumb of dialogue between him and the rest of the heroes at the hospital, or for it to not be brushed off quite so cleanly in the press release. For a series that has been this non-lethal to change just once and then more or less track back onto that non-lethality without comment is what bugs me. Staltran posted:Where are you getting the durability halving thing from? I don't remember anything like that. But even assuming they're completely trivial to destroy, their offensive capabilities are pretty much untouched. Twice clones can propagate fast, like we saw a bit before Hawks killed him. You give him a few seconds and oops, there are a dozen (pre-enhancement) Shiggy clones disintegrating city blocks. I certainly buy that if Hawks hadn't killed him when he did every hero in that city would have been screwed. And if (a) Twice arrived with Machia then who knows what might have happened. Pretty good odds that they'd have killed Endeavor/Todo/Eraser/Bakugo etc and captured Deku before leaving. Check the wiki, I'm not sure any more if I was correct about the halving as being exact but he did say that the further down you go in the chain of clones the less durable they get. We've been shown that first gen clones aren't durable at all to begin with. Also another weakness is the need to have a "flawless image" of the target, and we've only been shown him cloning himself when pressed in combat and stressed. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that when pressed that's all he can do, otherwise he'd have done it when Hawks jumped him - a clone of Shiggy or any number of other villains could have just won that fight for him if it was that simple - he only copied himself. Ytlaya posted:Can't he only do the "repeated cloning" thing with himself? Correct, only Twice clones have Double, a clone of a different quirk user would have their quirk only. e.: which means he'd first have to make a daisy-chain of Twices before those Twices then made end-point other-characters, but depending on how far down the chain of clones this is they'd end up very fragile.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:00
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Ytlaya posted:Can't he only do the "repeated cloning" thing with himself?
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Mar 20, 2021 00:01
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KazigluBey posted:
You're forgetting something important. Hawks original plan was just to keep Twice locked down. He wasn't 'too dangerous to let live' he was "too dangerous to let escape at that moment.' It's still brutal and cruel but Hawks specifically said he wanted to save Twice and thought he was a good person and killing was his last resort in the middle of a literal war. It wasn't Hawks going "Twice is too dangerous to live" it is "if Twice gets out a lot more people are going to die and I, being a pragmatic black ops rear end in a top hat, am willing to kill to prevent that." It was still awful and cruel to betray him but Twice is again a literal supervillain who actively participates in murder and terrorism not just against society but has helped repeatedly target children. He isn't just a nice woobie who never hurt anyone. His last act before talking to Toga is offhandedly murdering someone. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 00:07
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For Twice to produce multiple clones, he has to produce clones of himself and then have those produce clones of other people like he did during the fight with the Quirk Libertarians. That wasn't a possibility until he got over his trauma and was willing to clone himself again. He made a clone of Redestro at some point (which was a goal of Skeptic). The real plot hole is why didn't he make at least one gigantomachia clone. The clones are less durable in that they fall apart after an equivalent of a broken bone, but nobody's actually scratched Machia- they legit just had to drug him and restrain him until he gassed out. The clone, even if it would've disappeared after a major injury- still has to be injured first and nobody has proven capable of even doing that. That scenario is even shown in the manga as the nightmare scenario that necessitated Twice being killed if he couldn't be subdued normally (some chapters back you see an imagined image of twice cloning machia, I think as Hawks explains why he killed him). Also- Cops get away with killing people all the time. Not that surprising there isn't more controversy over what Hawks did, at least right now. Also this is the Japanese face-saving press conference where everyone just offers their apologies or resignations and then all of the real action is afterward.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:11
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Fabricated posted:For Twice to produce multiple clones, he has to produce clones of himself and then have those produce clones of other people like he did during the fight with the Quirk Libertarians. That wasn't a possibility until he got over his trauma and was willing to clone himself again. I am guessing Twice could not get an accurate size and weight for Machia cause of his shifting size. The nightmare scenario was him cloning tons of High Ends
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Mar 20, 2021 00:34
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Fabricated posted:Also this is the Japanese face-saving press conference where everyone just offers their apologies or resignations and then all of the real action is afterward. Yeah fair enough, I'll wait to see what else might happen. I'm not sure I buy the "IRL cops get away with murder" as justification here, tho, given the MASSIVE difference between the MHA setting's heroes and IRL cops. If this was a common thing in the setting it would have probably been brought up before, probably by Stain in his litany of accusations re: hero society, or by Deku et all as a thing to be reformed or that they didn't want to represent. Look, I know my spoiler text dump is a dumb pet peeve, it really bugs me but I understand why people disagree. I really like MHA and I guess if I didn't this wouldn't register as much.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:40
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I imagine most of the people who were fighting Shigaraki could have popped a Twice clone of Machia, but they would then have to stop fighting Shigaraki to do so. Even if Mt. Lady could have smashed them with the horny jail bat, there is no reason Twice could not have made twenty of them. I imagine the main reason not to would have been the concern that twenty "only somewhat less indestructible" clones of Machia rampaging around Japan and perhaps the world don't really prove anything or make anyone feel lovely.
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Mar 20, 2021 00:43
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It could also be yeah, fear of friendly fire from multiple clones of Machia given that the original basically taking a stroll flattened multiple cities
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Mar 20, 2021 01:00
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Even one clone of pre-upgrade Shigaraki would be an instant loss for the heroes, let along one clone of Machia. If Twice could pull out a clone of New and Improved Shigaraki, the world is dead no questions asked.
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Mar 20, 2021 01:03
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A sad mans Parade of just twice clones could have turned the tides.
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Mar 20, 2021 03:33
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Also, the way Sad Man’s Parade works is very simple. Twice makes two clones of himself, who then make 2 clones of themselves for 4, then 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, so on and so forth, and this can happen in SECONDS. It’s a nightmare scenario because eventually, they reach the point where he can make clones faster than you can destroy them, especially if he and some clones get away from the fight to refresh. Then once he’s got 2000 clones they each make a clone of them self and one of his friends, no longer doubling the number of twice per generation, but suddenly you have 2000 Shigaraki, then 4000 Shigaraki, then 6000 Shigaraki.
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Mar 20, 2021 03:38
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Can't wait for Sad Man's Parade in the anime.
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Mar 20, 2021 03:41
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KazigluBey posted:Yeah fair enough, I'll wait to see what else might happen. When regular real world people are born with nukes strapped to their wrist, the analogy will be more effective than it is right now. Plus in the end Twice was very much willingly working with people who are ride or die on killing millions and Hawks at least gave him an out he refused to take. There just isn’t a lot of room for leeway when the most dangerous person in the entire series could end the world in maybe an hour if he felt like it.
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Mar 20, 2021 03:44
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Yeah I mean, the video the public saw was framed in the worst way possible with Twice running away and crying but Hawks (and we, the audience) knows that Twice was running away to... join the fight. To kill heroes and help his villain friends. Like, to continue with the cop analogy, this wasn't a cop shooting some guy in the back as he was trying to escape. This was a cop shooting some guy who's lunging for a gun. I loved Twice as a character but Hawks wasn't wrong to kill him. He did the right thing given the circumstances and gave Twice every chance to surrender peacefully. I presume it's just one more thing underlying public trust in heroes. Hawks isn't offering a very good explanation here and seems to think it should be taken at face value and whether it is or not, that's not a good look.
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Mar 20, 2021 04:00
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KazigluBey posted:If he said it needed to be done and apologized then I guess everyone just believes him and moves on, it's that simple. Like, really? current chapter spoilers: I am almost certain that everyone kind of shrugging when Hawks presents his justification for killing Twice speculation/past chapter content: is actually meant to be setup for the future where heroes become more and more willing to outright kill villains instead of capturing them and it leading to a further breakdown of trust in heroes. The beginning of the breakdown. There are several factors leading me to believe this: 1. Many of the top heroes (and students!) currently being capture specialists (Jeanist, Edgeshot, Kamui Woods, Sero, Mineta, et al) 2. Many heroes retiring because of the current turmoil, meaning the ones who remain are that much more outnumbered 3. That scene that Wash walks in on. If civilians are willing to use lethal force, why wouldn't/shouldn't heroes? 4. That one weird panel with the American/Foreign heroes looking menacing. 5. The Hero Public Safety Commission being much more interested in results than in ethics/moals, hence why they tapped Hawks, and specifically Hawks, to do this mission, because they knew he'd follow it through. KazigluBey posted:Yeah fair enough, I'll wait to see what else might happen. Right, hence the above text I wrote. Heroes are about to cross a line that hasn't been previously crossed all that often and is (presumably) remarked-upon when they do.
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Mar 20, 2021 04:47
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Julias posted:The only rule in place for this thread was to spoiler discussion of the new chapter until the official English Translation came out, but yeah we had changed the policy in the One Piece thread to not even talk about text leaks, basically no discussion of the new chapter until a fantranslated version came out, because we were getting chapter text spoilers on Monday, literally one day after the official release, which was more than a bit ridiculous, having the thread be spoiler tagged 6 out of 7 days. Chiming in late to say I'm in favour of this.
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Mar 20, 2021 07:02
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christmas boots posted:It kind of has been. Or at least it's been shown to be a double-edged sword multiple times. There's obvious nobility in being willing to risk it all to help people, but the story has made it a point to remind us that Deku every bone in his body is not only doing a lot of harm to his own health and future, but it's also hurting the people around him who care about him and have to see him like that. We also know All Might went through something like that too with Nighteye and even though it hasn't gotten a lot of explicit focus there's not much indication that All Might really has anyone or anything in his life outside of Deku and Gran Torino. So... it's good and it's bad and I think we're meant to feel two ways about it. That reminds me: Deku doesn't seem to have gotten any long-term injury from the last arc. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 08:48
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Yo, what the gently caress is up with Best Jeanist's neck?
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Mar 20, 2021 18:27
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Rhonne posted:Yo, what the gently caress is up with Best Jeanist's neck? Best Jeanist makes a controversial choice to this old meme: 
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Mar 20, 2021 18:46
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Rhonne posted:Yo, what the gently caress is up with Best Jeanist's neck? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14
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Mar 20, 2021 18:51
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Rhonne posted:Yo, what the gently caress is up with Best Jeanist's neck? He's a member of the long-neck tribe and you're being very rude.
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Mar 20, 2021 18:57
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Rhonne posted:Yo, what the gently caress is up with Best Jeanist's neck? What’s up with YOUR neck?
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Mar 20, 2021 21:19
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I was gonna make a "Best Jeanist just has amazing trapezius muscles" joke but then I realized... muscle tissue is made of... fibers.  Can't wait for the recently escaped Muscular to come up against Best Jeanist.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:31
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If he could hijack people’s muscles I think he would’ve done it to All For One back when they met
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Mar 20, 2021 21:53
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Maybe his quirk hasn't awoken yet.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:57
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Can Best Jeanist control high-fiber food?
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Mar 20, 2021 22:08
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ImpAtom posted:Can Best Jeanist control high-fiber food? Finally, someone asking the real questions. 
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Mar 20, 2021 22:29
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Again if this was the X-men comics Jeanist would've started out with the standard cloth fiber control powers and ended on being able to unravel your DNA with his mind because that's technically a fiber for some reason
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Mar 21, 2021 00:07
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Watch as he unvravels the FABRIC of space-time!
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Mar 21, 2021 00:14
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Hogama posted:Watch as he unvravels the FABRIC of space-time!
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Mar 21, 2021 00:15
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He's able to create real human beans
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Mar 21, 2021 00:37
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He's actually just Doflamingo.
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Mar 21, 2021 02:33
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