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pseudanonymous posted:If a book is so bad it shouldn't be read, does it count as a book? you should make your own sanderson shittalk thread, 'round these parts is the pat rothfuss shittalk thread though speaking of shittalking beard authors that came up in the thread before i got ahold of that paolini sci-fi book and it started out 'ok' and has been gradually stretching thinner and thinner
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Mar 22, 2021 02:03
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Patware posted:you should make your own sanderson shittalk thread, 'round these parts is the pat rothfuss shittalk thread I don't think I have what it takes to defeat the posters in the Sanderson thread, I'm certainly not the bravest, or brightest, of the lamps, and just starting a Sanderson hate thread seems weird. Also I'm pretty sure it would get shut. I'd also have to read some more of his books to make the arguments, and I don't think I can wade through that filth no matter what lies on the other side.
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Mar 22, 2021 03:51
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I’ve read 5 or 6 Sanderson books and attempted a few others. He’s not bad, but his writing doesn’t have a strong voice to it, the fights tend to read like video game instructions, and there’s a similar pacing problem in all of his work where it doesn’t move well until the last quarter of each book. I wish I liked him more as he’s so prolific that I’d have plenty to read.
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Mar 22, 2021 04:29
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I do remember meeting Sanderson in person once, and he had an anecdote about meeting Rothfuss for lunch and wanting to strangle him because where's the third book? Sanderson seems like a pretty cool person, but his writing is kind of bland and seems written to appeal to engineers by inventing fake rules to abuse and to write in the nerd - for lack of a better term - voice. Spinsa is a starfighter pilot who is fighting a constant war with aliens for survival. She reads as someone who grew up on modern earth vaguely exposed to the internet.
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Mar 22, 2021 06:11
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I just realised that all this stonewalling is very reminiscent of Harlan Ellison's BSing about the third volume of Dangerous Visions. It was originally due to be published in the mid 70s, but Ellison was still promising it would come out up to his death in 2018. Christopher Priest wrote a long fanzine report on it in the 90s that I think got nominated for a Hugo. (more background). I guess what I'm saying is someone should do a ten part youtube series on why this book is never coming out and clean up
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Mar 22, 2021 10:34
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Ccs posted:I’ve read 5 or 6 Sanderson books and attempted a few others. He’s not bad, but his writing doesn’t have a strong voice to it, the fights tend to read like video game instructions, and there’s a similar pacing problem in all of his work where it doesn’t move well until the last quarter of each book. I wish I liked him more as he’s so prolific that I’d have plenty to read. This was true 5 or 6 years ago, but even Sanderson has recognized the "Sander-lanche" and has worked to fix it. While the plot threads still tend to come together in the last portion of the books, he has gotten a lot better at pacing (though there's an argument that the middle portion of RoW was pretty slow).
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Mar 22, 2021 16:17
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RoW had some weak points and I think Oathbringer was a much better book but Mistborn Era 2 is great.
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Mar 22, 2021 16:49
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Sanderson is open and forthcoming about criticisms. And seeing as he writes for hours a day every day because he treats it as his full time job AND has shown a slow and steady improvement over the last 16 years I think it’s completely valid to say he’s a good author. Not the best author, but nobody starts out publishing peerless perfection. With Sanderson you get what he promises you
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Mar 22, 2021 19:33
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I do remember meeting Sanderson in person once, and he had an anecdote about meeting Rothfuss for lunch and wanting to strangle him because where's the third book? The rules aren't even interesting, because he immediately undercuts them. Say, Mistborn, where uh..Mistborns eat metals to do crazy magic stunts and boost their physical strength. But the metals are toxic! And often you'll have a massive crash after using them too long, so you take another hit just to keep going a little longer, and then maybe another hit, just one more. So is this going to be a crazy pulp adventure about drug-addicted mages pushing themselves and their bodies to the limit in pursuit of their goals? No. Because you can just carefully burn off any metals that you've consumed before you go to bed. And the constant abuse of metal-magic never has any negative consequences, the protagonist just has to sleep for a while. He set up rules that could have all sorts of fun narrative and character consequences, and then introduces more rules so nobody has to deal with those consequences. Codex Alara and The Powder Mage do the exact same kind of rules-based magic as Sanderson, but at least they manage to find some joy in exploiting their rules.
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Mar 22, 2021 19:59
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Lottery of Babylon posted:How about the part where Kvothe gently caresses the child sex slave while thinking about how hot she is and how much she looks just like Denna and she struggles to resist but fails because she's drugged Wait, who and when was this?
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Mar 22, 2021 20:14
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Codex Alara and The Powder Mage do the exact same kind of rules-based magic as Sanderson, but at least they manage to find some joy in exploiting their rules. Powder mage breaks its own rules regularly. Going powder blind is apparently temporary (at least in one case), there's a character who gets to ignore a major downside to their order's usage of magic, and Ka-Poel exists.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:49
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Evil Fluffy posted:Powder mage breaks its own rules regularly. Going powder blind is apparently temporary (at least in one case), there's a character who gets to ignore a major downside to their order's usage of magic, and Ka-Poel exists. This is such a trope of fantasy though... Magic works thusly.... EXCEPT (usually) the protagonist somehow is special/chosen. He can do things no-one else can. The alternative is his raw power level is just the highest evar.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:57
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Strom Cuzewon posted:The rules aren't even interesting, because he immediately undercuts them. Say, Mistborn, where uh..Mistborns eat metals to do crazy magic stunts and boost their physical strength. But the metals are toxic! And often you'll have a massive crash after using them too long, so you take another hit just to keep going a little longer, and then maybe another hit, just one more. So is this going to be a crazy pulp adventure about drug-addicted mages pushing themselves and their bodies to the limit in pursuit of their goals? At the risk of  , burning off the metals addresses the physical metal toxicity, not the addiction to the power itself. There's a few characters that are so accustomed to their powers being 'on' all the time that they physiologically gently caress up their bodies, such as abusing tin to the point that their eyes don't work well without it, and a few who develop psychological issues because of it (e.g., I'm useless unless I am pounding metal like optimus prime at a frat party).
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Mar 22, 2021 21:19
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Oh yeah, I was kinda combining two different things there. The metal toxicity was just the strongest example I could think of where Sanderson introduces a problem and solves it in the same breath.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:25
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I quite enjoyed Mistborn in an undemanding sort of way. It did strike me as odd worldbuilding that the powers were fueled by both elementally 'pure' metals and alloys in ways that seemed extremely arbitrary. For example, Pewter (The strength one) which is itself 90% Tin (The heightened senses one). See also Brass and Bronze etc.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:35
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I like that no one is engaging with the prose, characterization, or even the plot of Mistborn and is only discussing the made up rules around when characters can refill their mana bar. It's kind of damning!
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Mar 22, 2021 21:48
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Oh yeah, I was kinda combining two different things there. The metal toxicity was just the strongest example I could think of where Sanderson introduces a problem and solves it in the same breath. I don’t think he introduces the problem so much as understanding anyone that reads it is going to say “well aren’t they going to be poisoned?” and making sure the reader immediately knows this isn’t something to be caught up on. He could have just as easily come up with a system where eating a certain fruit or leaf gave you powers and avoided the toxicity altogether.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:51
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latinotwink1997 posted:I don’t think he introduces the problem so much as understanding anyone that reads it is going to say “well aren’t they going to be poisoned?” and making sure the reader immediately knows this isn’t something to be caught up on. He could have just as easily come up with a system where eating a certain fruit or leaf gave you powers and avoided the toxicity altogether. You definitely don't want to ever leave your reader in suspense about something.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:53
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pseudanonymous posted:You definitely don't want to ever leave your reader in suspense about something. Getting hung up on minutia isn't the same thing as suspense, though. Its like getting upset that Rothfuss doesn't tell us every time Kvothe shits. Rothfuss please dont get any ideas TheGreatEvilKing posted:I like that no one is engaging with the prose, characterization, or even the plot of Mistborn and is only discussing the made up rules around when characters can refill their mana bar. It's kind of damning! Its not shocking that goons latch on to trivialities. The characterization and prose is bog standard for genre fantasy fiction, but the world building and plotting is a thousand times more satisfying than Rothfuss's.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:02
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Oh yeah, I was kinda combining two different things there. The metal toxicity was just the strongest example I could think of where Sanderson introduces a problem and solves it in the same breath. Sanderson does have a tendency to try to preemptively tie up loose ends. I think I read somewhere that he put this in because people (beta readers?) pointed out to him that some of the metals were toxic. He added that line to address that feedback, not to change the narrative. That's usually my biggest complaint about him. Everything is very deliberate. If there's a mystery or apparent contradiction it's probably because he chose to put it there. Sometimes a line might read slightly awkwardly; after a while you notice those lines are usually foreshadowing or explanations of his magic system mechanics, which makes it seem like he inserted them in an editing pass to eliminate potential confusion. It always appears that he knows where his book will start, where it will end, and all of the milestones along the way, and just needs to fill in the details. If the details don't quite bridge the gap between milestones the characters' behavior might seem odd or events might start seeming contrived. Given that this is the Rothfuss thread, I'll clarify that I think having a tightly structured story is by no means a bad thing, but it can sometimes seem artificial. I do agree that Sanderson is leagues better at avoiding these problems now, compared to his earlier books.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:13
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I read the first mistborn because it was touted as a magical heist book and it really ended up being not that. Any suggestions in that vein? Lies of Locke Lamora similarly failed to deliver.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:29
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This is the worst tangent the Rothfuss thread has ever had.
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Mar 22, 2021 23:04
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pseudanonymous posted:This is such a trope of fantasy though... Yeah I know it's super common, right alongside "this fantasy world is built on the remains of an ancient, more advanced civilization" or "elves are basically super sexy humans with long lives and pointy ears." latinotwink1997 posted:I don’t think he introduces the problem so much as understanding anyone that reads it is going to say “well aren’t they going to be poisoned?” and making sure the reader immediately knows this isn’t something to be caught up on. He could have just as easily come up with a system where eating a certain fruit or leaf gave you powers and avoided the toxicity altogether. The idea of "but what about metal poisoning" being a concern in a series where people ingest metals to use magic is just really drat funny too. Especially since (Mistborn spoilers obv) Scadrians aren't regular humans in the first place, especially during the period of the first Mistborn series.. e: PJOmega posted:I read the first mistborn because it was touted as a magical heist book and it really ended up being not that. Any suggestions in that vein? Lies of Locke Lamora similarly failed to deliver. I've seen this mentioned a few times too for some weird reason, but the most common (and technically more accurate) take I usually saw was "what if Frodo kept the ring and became the dark lord" in regards to the Lord Ruler. Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 23:40
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eXXon posted:Wait, who and when was this? Was in Wise Man's Fear. Rothfuss dumped the original short story he wrote about Rothfuss into the book and just slightly edited it to attempt to make it fit despite it having a very different style which results in it coming off as Kvothe pretending that the people he is telling the story to does not know him and he is super mysterious. Basically he shows up as a fake Edema Ruh camp and immediately poisons them for being shoplifters and then wanders off and finds that they're also KIDNAPPING RAPISTS but since we're not suppose to know who Kvothe is despite it being a plot point in the first book that Kvothe is incapable of rape even when mind-controlled by drugs, he starts feeling them up and pretending he might rape them despite nobody witnessing him because they're all disabled by the poison, and then he goes out and kills them all especially the women who were explicitly victims forced to work for the bandits because that means they are TRAITORS TO THEIR GENDER or something.
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Mar 23, 2021 01:39
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Kchama posted:Was in Wise Man's Fear. Rothfuss dumped the original short story he wrote about Rothfuss into the book and just slightly edited it to attempt to make it fit despite it having a very different style which results in it coming off as Kvothe pretending that the people he is telling the story to does not know him and he is super mysterious. Basically he shows up as a fake Edema Ruh camp and immediately poisons them for being shoplifters and then wanders off and finds that they're also KIDNAPPING RAPISTS but since we're not suppose to know who Kvothe is despite it being a plot point in the first book that Kvothe is incapable of rape even when mind-controlled by drugs, he starts feeling them up and pretending he might rape them despite nobody witnessing him because they're all disabled by the poison, and then he goes out and kills them all especially the women who were explicitly victims forced to work for the bandits because that means they are TRAITORS TO THEIR GENDER or something. There's an extremely patronizing bit where he returns them to their village and laments that they'll always been known as victims now and will be lucky if they manage to find a husband willing to accept them for being tainted.
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Mar 23, 2021 03:22
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pentyne posted:There's an extremely patronizing bit where he returns them to their village and laments that they'll always been known as victims now and will be lucky if they manage to find a husband willing to accept them for being tainted. And then some kid makes fun of them and IIRC Kvothe assaults him and that's apparently to make up for the rest of it. Very whedonist.
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Mar 23, 2021 08:54
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"Then I broke this kid's arm for looking at me funny, and even his mom thought it was cool and wanted to bone me."
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Mar 23, 2021 14:15
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I don't know how anyone can read Sanderson, suffer through a chapter of Shallan/Radiant/Veil, and not feel physically embarrassed for him. Same with Sanderson trying to write his evolution of not being a lovely human being. He is the Terry Goodkind of trying to come to terms with sexuality, race, and gender on the page. It's like he has academically studied a gay person and never met one in real life.
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Mar 23, 2021 14:18
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The "Say the words" thing was cool in one book, but after Way of Kings it's a get out of jail free card. It's kind of clever to tie pokemon evolution to character development (in an autistic kind of way) but it only works when the character development feels earned. What's unintenitonally funny and meta post-Way of Kings is when the characters are trying to force their development as human beings so they can power up and get anime powers. I said the words and then Jesus entered my heart and gave me this cool sword, but I only get the armor once I've dedicated myself to eliminating poverty in Sao Paulo...
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Mar 23, 2021 14:27
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Benson Cunningham posted:I don't know how anyone can read Sanderson, suffer through a chapter of Shallan/Radiant/Veil, and not feel physically embarrassed for him.
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Mar 23, 2021 14:50
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Drakyn posted:Out of morbid curiosity, is there anywhere in particular to read more about this in greater detail? I mean, the Sanderson blog has extensive posts about this kind of stuff. He's a good guy and you can't fault him for his Mormon background. He'd already be excommunicated or whatever they call it if he weren't such an earner.
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Mar 23, 2021 15:31
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BananaNutkins posted:I mean, the Sanderson blog has extensive posts about this kind of stuff. He's a good guy and you can't fault him for his Mormon background. He'd already be excommunicated or whatever they call it if he weren't such an earner.
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Mar 23, 2021 16:50
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PJOmega posted:I read the first mistborn because it was touted as a magical heist book and it really ended up being not that. Any suggestions in that vein? Lies of Locke Lamora similarly failed to deliver. What did you feel that Lies didn't deliver on in regards to the heist? It's been a couple of years, but the con was intricate and really melded with world.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:23
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LASER BEAM DREAM posted:What did you feel that Lies didn't deliver on in regards to the heist? It's been a couple of years, but the con was intricate and really melded with world. Also mistborn 1 is built on the heist template with "getting the crew together" and everything so if you can elaborate on what you're really looking for I think you'd get better suggestions
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Mar 23, 2021 17:35
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Drakyn posted:Out of morbid curiosity, is there anywhere in particular to read more about this in greater detail? BananaNutkins posted:I mean, the Sanderson blog has extensive posts about this kind of stuff. He's a good guy and you can't fault him for his Mormon background. He'd already be excommunicated or whatever they call it if he weren't such an earner. For any skill- piano, coding, skiing, etc- the more you learn the deeper your understanding gets. What's interesting to talk about or practically relevant changes as your expertise increases. You learn codified jargon and constantly advance your meta communication on the topic. Reading a Sanderson book is like listening to someone who started piano yesterday talk about their grand theory of music but applied to social injustice instead. It's loving boring, cringy, and adds nothing interesting to the discussion.
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Mar 23, 2021 17:59
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BananaNutkins posted:I mean, the Sanderson blog has extensive posts about this kind of stuff. He's a good guy and you can't fault him for his Mormon background. He'd already be excommunicated or whatever they call it if he weren't such an earner. Good guy and Mormon are mutually exclusive. Hth (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 23, 2021 18:23
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eXXon posted:Wait, who and when was this? It's from the Fake Ruh segment, after he's poisoned the caravan and drugged the trafficked girls but before he's gone and slain the Impostor Romani: quote:In fifteen minutes she was asleep. I covered the two of them with a blanket and watched their faces.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:03
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pseudanonymous posted:Good guy and Mormon are mutually exclusive. Hth I'm sure it's partially because I want to like him, but the way Sanderson explores topics around religion and other issues make me think he is not inline with a lot of Mormons on theology.
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Mar 23, 2021 19:22
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I enjoy Sanderson and respect him as an author. I vaguely enjoy Rothfuss but don’t respect him as an author. People can enjoy things and being mad about them isn’t healthy.
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Mar 23, 2021 20:00
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M_Gargantua posted:I enjoy Sanderson and respect him as an author. I vaguely enjoy Rothfuss but don’t respect him as an author. People can like what they want. People can be mad about what they want. This is just a "stop disliking what I like!" post. Now if you want to talk about what you like and why it's good, have at it.
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Mar 24, 2021 14:29
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