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exmarx posted:degrowth makes sense to me as part of the solution. all the explanations i've seen make it clear that developed countries need to do more, faster, and that it's not about smothering under-developed countries even more. what exactly is meant by degrowth? is it just ending the mindless consumption of the global west
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Apr 30, 2021 14:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:what exactly is meant by degrowth? is it just ending the mindless consumption of the global west right, i think this important because it's not like people in the West are happy
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Apr 30, 2021 14:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:what exactly is meant by degrowth? is it just ending the mindless consumption of the global west it’s global in scope. everyone needs to stop producing and consuming non-essential goods at current levels. I think one of the critiques of degrowth as a movement is that it doesn’t focus on economic system and modes of production so it’s perfectly compatible with capitalism and exploitation of workers/peasants in principle as long as we don’t do it quite so much
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Apr 30, 2021 14:47
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No it isn’t. Will not elaborate
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Apr 30, 2021 14:59
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indigi posted:it’s global in scope. everyone needs to stop producing and consuming non-essential goods at current levels. I think one of the critiques of degrowth as a movement is that it doesn’t focus on economic system and modes of production so it’s perfectly compatible with capitalism and exploitation of workers/peasants in principle as long as we don’t do it quite so much i just dont see the non-industrialized countries as having troublesome levels of consumption. like yeah no one should be living like americans but i dunno what countries in africa could cut back on
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Apr 30, 2021 15:02
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Raskolnikov38 posted:we should be planting so many loving forests right now Sorry, no profit in planting trees. Please die in an orderly and expensive fashion.
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Apr 30, 2021 15:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i just dont see the non-industrialized countries as having troublesome levels of consumption. like yeah no one should be living like americans but i dunno what countries in africa could cut back on that’s totally true, mostly because the West takes all their poo poo. I believe degrowth proponents would say that they shouldn’t simply continue to produce the same amount even if it’s for local consumption as opposed to export. but also there’s Marxist degrowth tendencies so they may have a different answer? it’s a pretty broad category
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Apr 30, 2021 15:07
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i say swears online posted:my tendies tendencies*
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Apr 30, 2021 15:16
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Trash Ops posted:rounding it out i have robert service to thank for the trotsky im horny babaay but my dick only work for u letter thank you fir your Service
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Apr 30, 2021 17:38
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skipping the last 15 pages to say lol even lurkers are tired of flatass poo poo stirring to post about it now also lmao smarxist posted:pssst. hey kid.... lmfao this owns
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Apr 30, 2021 20:27
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Apr 30, 2021 21:07
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"Degrowth" can either be really good or really bad depending on what people actually mean by it, I've found. A bunch of the people pushing it are Western primmies and hippies who are proud of not owning a tv. Otoh the idea of decoupling economics from prioritizing GDP growth makes sense if we actually want an eco-communist future as long as we don't put the cart before the horse. Going for degrowth while the world is still capitalist would be extremely counterproductive and gently caress over the working class
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Apr 30, 2021 21:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:detonate the Yellowstone Supervolcano if we blot the sun then photosynthesis will slow down lol and the carbon will hang around longer. the only option is to cut emissions and try to accelerate the recapture of carbon. in the meantime we're kinda hosed
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Apr 30, 2021 21:34
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liquidating every person with a net worth over a million bucks would technically be green degrowth to me the term means that elon musk's lifestyle shouldn't be an aspirational goal
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Apr 30, 2021 21:34
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ending consumerist lifestyles and improving people’s lives and the ecology of the planet should be called something else other than “degrowth”, which is a bad term. if the idea is to build a new sustainable and humane future that is what should be emphasized, not that capitalist assumptions of Important Number goes down or whatever anyway any political program should be explicitly communist regardless, as anything else will get coopted by capitalism. degrowth and sustainability will just be used to cover up why your life is getting materially worse while the elons and jeffs of the world maintain their control
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Apr 30, 2021 21:43
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rename it to "transitioning to an economy that wont kill us all"
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Apr 30, 2021 21:44
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Certain things like subsidized high-density housing and actual public transportation would be a step up in terms of quality of life. Certain things like air travel (for example) would have to be highly regulated, but that is why HSR exists. The real issue is that particularly the American way of high is just unsustainable and shutting down some coal plants and buying Teslas isn't going to cut it. (It doesn't help that the US' likes to simultaneously blame the global south for increased carbon emissions but absolutely has no problem using their cheap labor for their manufacturing.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 22:01
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i am curious to what extent eliminating capitalism's duplicative production alone would have on climate change
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Apr 30, 2021 22:11
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recreate cybersyn by nationalizing Amazon’s MRP system and use it to centrally plan the global economy and break the backs of the capitalists and use dynamic pegging to avoid going beyond the ecological limits yes, industrial output of anime will increase in my planning scenarios
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Apr 30, 2021 22:17
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i am curious to what extent eliminating capitalism's duplicative production alone would have on climate change Anyone notice how the quality of shoes nowadays is absolutely terrible? I have bought shoes recently that only lasted a few months and they were name-brand.
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Apr 30, 2021 22:30
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i am curious to what extent eliminating capitalism's duplicative production alone would have on climate change the biggest thing would be establishing some semblance of sane centralized production for each population region instead of concentrating parts in exploited parts of the world and renditioning them all over the world for assembly/distro on super tankers that belch out the equivalent CO2 to 30 million cars every day or w/e (EACH!!!)
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Apr 30, 2021 22:31
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i dont know what dynamic pegging is but i like the sound of it
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Apr 30, 2021 22:51
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Impermanent posted:The problem with internet leftists is that materialism unlocks a methodology for being correct about things few others are willing to acknowledge. Like any group of people with specialized knowledge (doctors, programmers, engineers) they immediately assume this new found power applies cross-discipline, and indeed in every facet of life and society. But you only know what you study. this is an interesting phenomenon i've wondered about for a while. best i can come up with is 'dunning-kreuger is topic-specific but people don't understand that' but that's descriptive and not explanatory i think part of it is spending so long studying/working on one type of problem that you don't really get to experience being wrong in other fields just from sheer lack of exposure i hadn't thought about it affecting commie mega-nerds but it makes some sense
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Apr 30, 2021 22:57
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materialism is a little more all-encompassing than medical practice, coding, and bridge building so I don’t get the comparison. indeed it explains why these fields are the way they are today. is this really a problem?
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Apr 30, 2021 23:04
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Ardennes posted:Anyone notice how the quality of shoes nowadays is absolutely terrible? I have bought shoes recently that only lasted a few months and they were name-brand. someone in the doomsday economics thread said they bought the same pair of tennis shoes every six months on account of them wearing out from running/walking but they might just be buying inappropriate shoes.
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Apr 30, 2021 23:06
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mawarannahr posted:someone in the doomsday economics thread said they bought the same pair of tennis shoes every six months on account of them wearing out from running/walking but they might just be buying inappropriate shoes. Well I pretty much had the same issue, and I would say it is more severe now then even a few years ago. There is something to say when blocky Soviet shoes become appealing if only they can last long enough to break them in. I would say any philosophy or view of the world is going to have its blind spots including materialism. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 23:46
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indigi posted:it’s global in scope. everyone needs to stop producing and consuming non-essential goods at current levels. I think one of the critiques of degrowth as a movement is that it doesn’t focus on economic system and modes of production so it’s perfectly compatible with capitalism and exploitation of workers/peasants in principle as long as we don’t do it quite so much which is why it's part of the solution – it's entirely possible for a communist society to exploit resources in an unsustainable way Raskolnikov38 posted:i just dont see the non-industrialized countries as having troublesome levels of consumption. like yeah no one should be living like americans but i dunno what countries in africa could cut back on this is the risk, right? without degrowth or some other strategy for a 2-speed reduction in emissions etc., you're going to have a bunch of countries that aren't able to industrialise, while the historically polluting countries tut-tut. turd in my singlet posted:this is an interesting phenomenon i've wondered about for a while. best i can come up with is 'dunning-kreuger is topic-specific but people don't understand that' but that's descriptive and not explanatory this is my fave articulation of it, made off-hand in a review of the selfish gene in the 70s: 
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May 1, 2021 00:24
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exmarx posted:this is my fave articulation of it, made off-hand in a review of the selfish gene in the 70s: janet would gently caress me if it weren't for capital
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May 1, 2021 02:17
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i say swears online posted:janet would gently caress me if it weren't for capital barry hang in there next semester we'll be seniors
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May 1, 2021 07:26
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turd in my singlet posted:i dont know what dynamic pegging is but i like the sound of it 
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May 1, 2021 08:00
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turd in my singlet posted:i dont know what dynamic pegging is but i like the sound of it you would mainly replace the market impulses on the industrial base with intelligently extrapolated statistical forecasts in your central distribution node in the population center, but you can’t completely ignore real life in the distribution centres either or else you risk running out of anime or toothbrushes unexpectedly as the factory planning becomes progressively disconnected from what the people need so you dynamically peg the underlying production orders in the factory to the anticipated stock transfer orders coming from the hub, and all of this across the multi-level subset hierarchy of the product. as the distribution needs move forwards or backwards in the next months your supply plan in production adapts dynamically as the heuristic optimizer algorithms take it into account (and flag an alert for the supply planners if there’s a big issue - the principle of cybersyn was local management unless additional support is needed from central planning) proper inventory management is an existential, critical process for any centrally planned system because at the other end you won’t peg your purchase orders to the raw material suppliers (they could be geographically situated anywhere in the world) so if the requested transfer dates slide too far forward you create a mess in production by not having the correct raw material available. in summary, boxes of anime pillows disappearing creates chaos in the quota management system and the industrial base and will be punishable by the gulag
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May 1, 2021 08:26
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That doesn't seem to address enviromental limits at all.
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May 1, 2021 09:45
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not inherently, the environmental limits are taken into account upfront in the inputs you give to the distribution center and which drive the industrial activity the industrial planning system itself just reacts and scales to the inputs it receives, the trick is replacing the inputs coming today from capitalist market speculation and overconsumption with a strictly controlled demand plan respecting environmental limits without hand waving and ignoring the risk of potential shortages on essential/consumer goods
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May 1, 2021 10:04
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Impermanent posted:The problem with internet leftists is that materialism unlocks a methodology for being correct about things few others are willing to acknowledge. Like any group of people with specialized knowledge (doctors, programmers, engineers) they immediately assume this new found power applies cross-discipline, and indeed in every facet of life and society. But you only know what you study. i think this is basically right. there's a reason academics learn to be detached and that reason is immersing yourself in theory is the fast-track to crazy town. but it has it .. backwards? internet political discourse is like a playground, and the political discourse there functions like a kind of practice or play activity. and that's smart, a big part of expertise is understanding its limits, and the only way you can get that is by trying to apply ideas to cases and seeing what feedback comes back. so i think what you're seeing as a problem is an intuitive learning strategy, basically people stumbling on nice looking ideas and ideologies in what they perceive as a safe environment, and then putting them in their mouths, like babies exploring novel objects do. thus the problem here isn't so much anything about internet leftists individually as that they are learners in an unsafe learning environment. the internet algorithmically encourages pushes people across ideologies (come to think of it, liberals approach statistics in this way too) onto aforementioned fast-track in the name of engagement, grossly distorting the learning feedback process in order to turn "people who are interested in theory" into "people who are overly immersed in theory" on a factory assembly line.
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May 1, 2021 10:04
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:you would mainly replace the market impulses on the industrial base with intelligently extrapolated statistical forecasts in your central distribution node in the population center, but you can’t completely ignore real life in the distribution centres either or else you risk running out of anime or toothbrushes unexpectedly as the factory planning becomes progressively disconnected from what the people need https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w
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May 1, 2021 10:05
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:l dynamic pegging I’m listening
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May 1, 2021 17:48
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So, I just watched a video about Degrowth. And I don't disagree with any of the points made in it, and I can get behind abolishing capitalism. But when somebody suggests abolishing capitalism without ever mentioning communism, my mind somehow jumps towards cryptofeudalism.
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May 1, 2021 18:22
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:you would mainly replace the market impulses on the industrial base with intelligently extrapolated statistical forecasts in your central distribution node in the population center, but you can’t completely ignore real life in the distribution centres either or else you risk running out of anime or toothbrushes unexpectedly as the factory planning becomes progressively disconnected from what the people need kind of understood some of this since im about halfway through Brain of the Firm lol. don't know anything about actual modern logistics tho, which seems like is where the 'pegging' part is coming from? i'm surprised cybernetics doesn't come up more on this forum
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May 1, 2021 18:34
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VictualSquid posted:when somebody suggests abolishing capitalism without ever mentioning communism lol why’re just cowards
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May 1, 2021 18:43
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happy international workers' day comrades
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May 1, 2021 18:43
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