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FISHMANPET posted:That's way thicker wire than is needed for just 15 amp, right? Slightly thicker, there's a decent chance they chose that size breaker because it feeds thinner 14ga wire downstream. Never hurts to have an electrician out to poke around, they might charge a fair bit though.
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May 21, 2021 15:06
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Most people I do jobs for are more of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type but I'd do a service overview and inspection if asked. Though like Elvis said it would be pricey because you're just sending someone on a fishing expedition. I would say that the number of 20a breakers in your panel isn't really indictive of anything. Also, if you aren't having problems with breakers tripping then chances are low that anything is "dangerously overloaded".
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May 21, 2021 16:03
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Well, wouldn't you know, I do have a weird problem with that multi-wire circuit tripping when the microwave (on a different circuit) if I have a high load device (window AC in the summer, or a warm mist humidifier in the winter) running on the multi-wire circuit. I'm trying not to spiral with requirements and end up with a $10k electrical job, but there are some issues.
I figure it would make more sense to a sense of a general plan from an expert, rather than approach every little piece piecemeal. For example, if I hired someone to put in a 240v circuit for the AC, I'm sure they could find room in the breaker, and if I knew that I would eventually want some more 120V circuits they might put in a sub panel, but if they knew that in the future I would want an additional 240v circuit for an oven then maybe they'd just replace the whole panel.
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May 21, 2021 18:19
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FISHMANPET posted:I'm trying not to spiral with requirements and end up with a $10k electrical job, but there are some issues. It sounds like you are going to need at least 4 open spaces for 2 x 240v circuits. How old is that panel? Personally, I'd focus on seeing if you can get a 200A service and a new main panel. If the service upgrade can be done, there's not much point in continuing to mess with a 100A panel. While they're doing that, they can probably tackle the MWBC screwiness and maybe add a few more circuits upstairs. You could potentially DIY from there adding circuits as needed, like the range circuit. Maybe the garage subpanel could be a DIY replacement too, but the service upgrade and main changeout is definitely not, so that seems to be the best use of money upfront. However, that isn't going to be cheap.
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May 21, 2021 20:35
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I can't be 100% sure but I know the house was upgraded to 100 amp service in 1965 (based on permit data and talking with the PO) sooooooo 1965? Isn't it possible to replace the panel without upgrading the service? From my rough calculations, 100 amp should be sufficient. So it's not that I have a supply problem, I just have a space problem. Everything I find about replacing a service panel talks about upgrading service, but surely you can just replace like-for-like, just plug the service wires into the new panel without needing to replace all that. But maybe the majority of the cost of a panel replacement is in rewiring the new panel, so it wouldn't cost much more to just upgrade the service while we're at it.
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May 21, 2021 20:50
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That's the usual thought, a new 100A panel and no service costs marginally less than a brand spankin' new 200A service, so just get one of those. I'd budget it out, get some quotes, ask about splitting some of those old circuits out, replacing that subpanel, eradicating the last of the K&T. It'll be easier and a little cheaper if you can budget to get it all done at once.
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May 21, 2021 21:34
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PageMaster posted:Thanks, I guess my more specific question was whether this was going to be a problem due to our panel size. From what you said, I'm thinking probably not since we're not actually pulling 50A continuously, but will be some lesser load for most of its use? Bringing this up again since I found all the actual manuals for this range so I'm confused again and the company couldn't answer (basically says 'that sounds right' to what I'm asking). In the installation manual for this range, it says this for electrical requirements:  Which led me to believe I needed a dedicated 50A circuit. I now found the product spec sheet, which shows this:  Which says 30A. The only thing I can think of is this actually sayingI need a 30A breaker, but a 50A cord plugging the oven in and I misunderstood? We have an electrician coming out so trying to see if I have this all wrong. PageMaster fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 22:22
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PageMaster posted:Bringing this up again since I found all the actual manuals for this range so I'm confused again and the company couldn't answer (basically says 'that sounds right' to what I'm asking). In the installation manual for this range, it says this for electrical requirements: Get an actual picture of the nameplate of the actual device. Manuals are written by copy-paste robots, spec sheets by people who've never seen the product in person. The nameplate is drawn up by the engineers that specced the device for manufacture. If it doesn't have a breaker rating, then there's some NEC math you can do with full-load amps or rated wattage. The electrician will know what to do.
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May 21, 2021 22:30
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Specifically try and pull a wattage off there, that'll let you do the math yourself better than whatever jerk wrote that manual.
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May 21, 2021 23:42
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Thanks all, you guys/gals were right, I looked at the stickers on some of my other appliances and it does straight up list breaker size. Didn't help here since the store wouldn't pull out the range for us to find the plate so we wouldn't know until it for delivered to us, but definitely helps from here on out. I think it might be breaker size in the spec sheet since now that I started looking at other ovens in the company line up they all say 4 wire 50A dedicated circuit in the installation instructions but spec sheets list between 20 and 40A breaker.
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May 22, 2021 00:10
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I would think that they are just trying to make sure that if you are using all 4 burners and the stove at max temperature, you have plenty of amperage to make it happen. Our stove manual says 30 watts, but the plate says 50 and samsung says 50 amp dedicated, so we did just that.
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May 22, 2021 00:30
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The rub here, I think, is that's a dual fuel range with the burners being gas and the convection oven being electric. Burners look like they're about 2,000W a piece, so four burners would account for about 8,000W of a 50A circuit (12,000W) so an electric oven drawing under 30A (7,200W) makes sense to me.
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May 22, 2021 01:01
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I thanks for all the input on this. I went and looked at a wolf dual fuel range at an appliance store and it just said to use a 20A breaker. I can't ever afford one but I figure with their reputation the manual should at least be right. I'm probably looking too hard into this and if I never started reading i'm guessing the range would have just worked fine (I guess at worst it would keep tripping the breaker) but just wanted to do it right. Fortunately everything is backordered for 8 to 12 weeks now so plenty of time to go through this with another range.
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May 22, 2021 01:55
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so.... I was in the process of adding(thinking about) another 30amp circuit in a sub-panel in a detached garage and noticed this loveliness:  It's 8awg wire feeding a sub going from 40amp breaker at the house. I never, or at least I didn't think I did, draw more than ~20amps total at a time. Regardless, the breakers at the sub are 30's so I am a little confused. To clarify It's the left black feed that is in question . It appears to be a little on the crunchy side at the lug. Any ideas other than I'm an idiot? If its me just being an idiot please let me know this as well. I can't afford to burn down my garage right now. TIA.
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May 28, 2021 23:16
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schmug posted:so.... I was in the process of adding(thinking about) another 30amp circuit in a sub-panel in a detached garage and noticed this loveliness: Yup that got overloaded or overheated at some point. Can you show us the attachment point on the main panel for this pictured sub? Kill the breaker there, verify 0v in your sub, and check the torque on that lug. If it's Gud-n-Tight undo it and pull the wire out, make sure there isn't something giving you a crappy connection in there. Like, the lug looks like it's had fewer turns on the black fried one than the red one. Is there some wire insulation in there? Loose?
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May 28, 2021 23:36
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H110Hawk posted:Yup that got overloaded or overheated at some point. Can you show us the attachment point on the main panel for this pictured sub? Will do. I will check the connection at main and post a pic if anything looks weird. I was thinking the same thing, but the lug is tight so I wasn't sure if that was problem. Maybe It just doesn't have full engagement on the wire? If so I will strip it back and re-attach and keep an eye on it I guess. lovely af tho because I never would have noticed it if I wasn't thinking of adding another circuit. wtf Thanks!
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May 28, 2021 23:46
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schmug posted:Will do. I will check the connection at main and post a pic if anything looks weird.  Let's see what you find in your main in case anything jumps out to us that you miss. More eyes is generally better. Plus I want to see what's in the lug.
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May 28, 2021 23:48
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H110Hawk posted:
here is the lug at the sub lol  it's loving rusted wtf. Can I replace that screw? Here is the main:  breaker in question is center 
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May 29, 2021 00:13
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Yikes. That was not a workmanlike job. And it's rusted because it overheated. You should probably be replacing not just the screw but the entire lug. Not sure if you can on that panel, and not 100% sure it's necessary without seeing how it looks when the wire is out.
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May 29, 2021 00:20
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Motronic posted:Yikes. That was not a workmanlike job. to say the least. But I'm already a beer or two past being able to safely dig into this any farther tonight so I will post a trip report in the AM...
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May 29, 2021 00:33
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so this has turned into a fun quick fix! I tried backing off the screw at the lug in questions and it was seized af. Finally got it "loose" and the wire dropped right out after about a 1/360th of a turn. Thinking it was cross threaded the entire time and was not fully seated at all. closer pi of the wire:  you can see in the background just how much I jacked up the screw hoping I could back it out from the lug and just replace it. Was. Not. Happening. So I decided on this instead:  New sub with a couple extra legs and a shut off at the panel instead of just at the house. schmug fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 19:06
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someone screwing up the lug and making a loose connection would lead to that kind of damage. there's no way that wire should ever look like that if things were fine. and the lugs are pretty soft metal so its actually pretty easy to go in and crank on them like a gorilla and screw them up. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 20:57
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schmug posted:so this has turned into a fun quick fix! I tried backing off the screw at the lug in questions and it was seized af. Finally got it "loose" and the wire dropped right out after about a 1/360th of a turn. Thinking it was cross threaded the entire time and was not fully seated at all. Nice! Glad it was such an obvious cause and solution.
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May 29, 2021 21:04
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as long as you're already in there ripping it apart and making it actually good, you should get some Noalox and slather it all over the big copper/aluminium connections. itll already be way better just having things tight and not stripped out but why not overkill it when its cheap and easy
Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 21:33 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 21:07
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H110Hawk posted:Nice! Glad it was such an obvious cause and solution. yeah just glad I found it. Only cost me like $75 for a new box and 40amp main. I'm no electrician by any means, but I think it came out OK.   whole reason that I even found out about it was I was trying to add a 30amp circuit for this thing:   Sorry if this turned into mini project thread but I do appreciate the info from everyone!
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May 29, 2021 23:44
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Mimesweeper posted:as long as you're already in there ripping it apart and making it actually good, you should get some Noalox and slather it all over the big copper/aluminium connections. itll already be way better just having things tight and not stripped out but why not overkill it when its cheap and easy yeah probably would have been a good idea, but unfortunately I'm past that. Thanks for the tip. Will keep it in mind the next time.
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May 29, 2021 23:46
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schmug posted:Sorry if this turned into mini project thread but I do appreciate the info from everyone! You should have an interlock kit for that genny, if that's also feeding that panel. Not sure if Siemens makes one for that panel, usually they need a main. Just be really careful, obviously.
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May 30, 2021 00:14
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B-Nasty posted:You should have an interlock kit for that genny, if that's also feeding that panel. Not sure if Siemens makes one for that panel, usually they need a main. For real. Its on the short list. Thankfully its only me that will be driving it but point taken for sure.
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May 30, 2021 00:41
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schmug posted:For real. Its on the short list. Thankfully its only me that will be driving it but point taken for sure. Fwiw tho i just cycled through everything with it and was basically able to power the whole house central ac and all. But yeah a true disconnect is definitely in the cards.
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May 30, 2021 00:46
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schmug posted:yeah probably would have been a good idea, but unfortunately I'm past that. Thanks for the tip. Will keep it in mind the next time. yeah, just wanted to mention something you would probably never hear about, its not going to cause you any trouble if it isn't there. your work looks good.
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May 30, 2021 02:16
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schmug posted:yeah probably would have been a good idea, but unfortunately I'm past that. Thanks for the tip. Will keep it in mind the next time. Once you're back in there with the NoAlOx, get some hex-head set screws (so's you can put an allen wrench in there to tighten them) and then torque to spec. The flathead lugs are usually "as much torque as you can put on with a flathead screwdriver" but, as you've seen, it's possible to mess that up. There may be a torque chart inside the cover of your new panel. If not, then 50-70 in-lb (normal human Pretty Snug without Cranking on It [the weight of a gallon of water hanging on the end of a normal 9" ratchet]) is enough. If you go tooooo crazy with the torque, then everything gets bound up and can't flex anymore.
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May 30, 2021 02:36
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Once you're back in there with the NoAlOx, get some hex-head set screws (so's you can put an allen wrench in there to tighten them) and then torque to spec. The flathead lugs are usually "as much torque as you can put on with a flathead screwdriver" but, as you've seen, it's possible to mess that up. There may be a torque chart inside the cover of your new panel. If not, then 50-70 in-lb (normal human Pretty Snug without Cranking on It [the weight of a gallon of water hanging on the end of a normal 9" ratchet]) is enough. If you go tooooo crazy with the torque, then everything gets bound up and can't flex anymore. also torque, and wiggle the copper a little bit, and torque, and wiggle, and repeat until its truly snug and won't come apart later when someone else comes in and starts pushing wires around to do something else in the box. the actual specs for how much torque to use feels like a lot less than you'd think. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 30, 2021 |
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May 30, 2021 02:38
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Mimesweeper posted:also torque, and wiggle the copper a little bit, and torque, and wiggle, and repeat until its truly snug and won't come apart later when someone else comes in and starts pushing wires around and trying to do something else in the box. Yeah, absolutely. 50 in-lb feels like nothing when swinging a 3/8" allen wrench. To put it in perspective, 50 in-lb is about the torque you feel when you're using a 1/8" allen wrench and you tighten enough with the short end to just see the long end start to deflect. It's really not that much. You can probably put 100-150 in-lb (like 10 ft-lb) of torque on those lugs, which is WAY TOO MUCH. Of course, if you have an actual torque wrench, then using that is eye-opening. You're torquing these huge lugs with as much torque as you'd normally use on #10 screws, or 1/4" lubricated stainless steel bolts.
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May 30, 2021 02:48
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Wow, I have definitely overtorqued those lugs getting them gud-n-tight. Whoops.
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May 30, 2021 03:02
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H110Hawk posted:Wow, I have definitely overtorqued those lugs getting them gud-n-tight. Whoops. you have, and i have, and literally every single person who ever touched electrical has
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May 30, 2021 03:09
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H110Hawk posted:Wow, I have definitely overtorqued those lugs getting them gud-n-tight. Whoops. The Brundy Solid Lugs that I've got the torque sheet for here in my bin says that their #6-2/0 lug (about that size) is 120 in-lb max torque. That's normal person "TIGHT." Even their 500kcmil stuff is <50 ft-lb, which is not even "I'mma crank on this" tight for normal people with a normal-sized wrench. Maybe 70 in-lb is on the low side, but cranking on it is definitely overtorqued.
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May 30, 2021 03:15
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I tighten all my lugs to 3 ugga duggas. Tire lugs, electrical lugs, all the same to me But really, I bought a Wera torque screwdriver and it rules for electrical work
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May 30, 2021 04:35
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Once you're back in there with the NoAlOx, get some hex-head set screws (so's you can put an allen wrench in there to tighten them) and then torque to spec. The flathead lugs are usually "as much torque as you can put on with a flathead screwdriver" but, as you've seen, it's possible to mess that up. There may be a torque chart inside the cover of your new panel. If not, then 50-70 in-lb (normal human Pretty Snug without Cranking on It [the weight of a gallon of water hanging on the end of a normal 9" ratchet]) is enough. If you go tooooo crazy with the torque, then everything gets bound up and can't flex anymore. Funny you mention this because the when I replaced the grounding bar with a larger one(the box came with one that was only like 3" long) I noticed how much more solid the hex screw felt at the main grounding lug than the slotted screw on the neutral bar. Even all the leg screws were slotted in stead of being Robertson's or whatever they are called. Pretty crappy design imo. Box was "cheap" tho so I guess you get what you pay for. Sure glad I saved that $50! *house burns to the ground*
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May 30, 2021 14:18
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I am trying to consolidate a subpanel into my main electrical panel (GE 200amp) directly adjacent to it. I can probably find a few circuits to get rid of in the main panel, but can I also use some 1/2" THQP breakers to add more capacity to the main panel? Or is that potentially going to violate code?
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May 30, 2021 15:23
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mcgreenvegtables posted:I am trying to consolidate a subpanel into my main electrical panel (GE 200amp) directly adjacent to it. I can probably find a few circuits to get rid of in the main panel, but can I also use some 1/2" THQP breakers to add more capacity to the main panel? Or is that potentially going to violate code? The list of authorized breakers is printed inside the panel somewhere. If the breaker isn't listed, then that's a code violation.
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May 30, 2021 16:42
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