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Pleads posted:Taim culled any Asha'man who were going insane and nobody had the kind of experience and fully-realized power that the male Aes Sedai would have had from the Age of Legends, so a full Breakening2: Electric Boogaloo wasn't in the cards. By the time the Black Tower was producing enough raw numbers, the taint was cleansed and it wasn't a concern anymore. One of my favorite forgotten things in the series is that Nynaeve actually cured insanity in male channelers. Then, with this huge amazing discovery, neither RJ or Sanderson do anything with it, nor do they mention it again, nor do they use it to cure any other channeler. She cures one singular guy and then never talks about it again. Well, she does look into Rand's brain but sees an overwhelming amount of madness held off by an equal force of light (which, again, is never mentioned again). I mean, every single male channeler in the series suffered from some degree of madness before the taint was cleansed excluding Osan'gar's group of bad guys. Even after the taint is cleansed the madness that was already there is still there. BigHead fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 21:58
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BigHead posted:One of my favorite forgotten things in the series is that Nynaeve actually cured insanity in male channelers. That's one of those things that would have been neat to see addressed in the books, but absolutely would be something post-story that I'd want to read some more about. Curing insanity, and Healing severed channelers. There's 2 of those last group specifically, Setalle Anan and Annoura, who would be interesting. The first has dealt with her grief and would be a real interesting study in bringing someone back into the fold, the second would take some punch out of an emotional sacrifice during the Last Battle. I guess they never did say whether someone burning themselves out was Healable the same way a gentled/stilled person was.
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May 25, 2021 23:08
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I vaguely remember reading somewhere that burning yourself out was not able to be healed in the same way that being severed was. Might have been an RJ interview though.
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May 25, 2021 23:49
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An interesting note in FoH. When Rand touches the a’dam of the damane (and sul’dam) who are currently shielded, Aviendha says she felt the Power surge in both women. Rand also felt a sudden surge of Power. I would understand if they were surging with Power from Rand if the a’dam was forcing him into a circle, but if Aviendha felt it, it was saidar, which they shouldn’t be able to access. Or was this just an oversight on RJs part? Edit: from above, I think severing is like cutting the line between two points, you just have to reconnect them. Burning yourself out is destroying even the anchor points for the line. latinotwink1997 fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 23:59
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No, this was a callback to the "sometimes the empress enjoys making a man join with a damane. Usually nothing happens, but occasionally they both die screaming" comment from tgh.
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May 26, 2021 00:01
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i.e it was probably surging with both of their ability
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May 26, 2021 00:01
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silvergoose posted:i.e it was probably surging with both of their ability I remember that first bit,but in this case it doesn’t make sense. They are literally shielded. There shouldn’t be any way for them to get saidar yet it just appears there? Or is the a’dam somehow supplying the power? That would make for an interesting case of a ter’angreal acting like an unregulated an’greal.
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May 26, 2021 00:05
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Think bowl of the winds; it surges with both halves and does all sorts of poo poo.
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May 26, 2021 00:08
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BigHead posted:One of my favorite forgotten things in the series is that Nynaeve actually cured insanity in male channelers. Then, with this huge amazing discovery, neither RJ or Sanderson do anything with it, nor do they mention it again, nor do they use it to cure any other channeler. She cures one singular guy and then never talks about it again.
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May 26, 2021 17:47
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bio347 posted:IIRC, she says she'd see to the asha'man at hand but it's like right before she was headed back to the White Tower and the Black Tower hadn't been solved yet so it's not like there was much she could do? There's not a ton of out-and-about male channelers, after all. Everything kicks off relatively shortly after and at that point it's very much a "they're sane enough to go right now, we have bigger things to do, we'll fix them if they're alive after" sort of problem. Yeah, that's what it was. She figured it out and the had to leave immediately for prep for the last battle. Assuming they won and any of them survived I'd assume she'd be more than happy to fix anyone she could find. It also was pretty time-consuming and hard, she fixed one dude and it took quite a lot of work and time. Not something you'd spend what little time you have left doing.
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May 26, 2021 18:04
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Moderator Hat on: Going forward I am probably going to be taking an extra-hard look at anything in this thread that exhibits even an implication of anti-trans bias, minimization of trans issues, TERFism, etc. If you see that kind of post please report it. Reason being, as I said above, Hieronymous Alloy posted:What i'm really worried about is that TERFs start latching onto it as a "Feminist Fantasy". I like my Wheel of Time t-shirt, I don't want to have to stop wearing it.
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May 27, 2021 14:07
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Souls bound to the horn hang out in the world of dreams, right? Did they have an exclusive club where they hung out that was nigh impossible to find? Because with how many people get into the world of dreams, you’d think someone would be like “hey there are a bunch of legendary souls around here somewhere, let’s find them and (seek their guidance, for protagonists) or (murder them from existence, for antagonists).”
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May 27, 2021 15:38
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They mostly avoided each other and it’s against the rules to help normies. Still think it’s a cop out for Birgitte to just get to slip back in after it’s all done.
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May 27, 2021 15:44
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Democratic Pirate posted:Souls bound to the horn hang out in the world of dreams, right? Did they have an exclusive club where they hung out that was nigh impossible to find? Because with how many people get into the world of dreams, you’d think someone would be like “hey there are a bunch of legendary souls around here somewhere, let’s find them and (seek their guidance, for protagonists) or (murder them from existence, for antagonists).” They can hide from people. When Brigitte shows up in TAR and is warning Egwane of danger (I think, might be Nynaeve) Gaidal starts to get on her case about being seen and interfering with events but the other person can't hear or see anyone that Brigitte is responding to, other than a glimpse of a shadow with two swords strapped on their back.
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May 27, 2021 16:42
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Invalid Validation posted:They mostly avoided each other and it’s against the rules to help normies. Still think it’s a cop out for Birgitte to just get to slip back in after it’s all done. And they had the run of the whole place, and knew how to move around/hide/transform stuff if needed. Most people who enter don't do so conciously, so even if they saw Birgitte and Gaidal Cain it's not like they would realize they were real. They think it's just a dream. Even the Dreamwalkers can be avoided pretty easily, it's not like there's a poo poo ton of them. And Birgitte had to get back in, it just wouldn't be the same.
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May 27, 2021 16:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Moderator Hat on: I doubt anybody posting itt for the past few years is going to give terfs any leeway. But yeah I could see it happening in other parts of the internet and alt-right culture.
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May 27, 2021 16:49
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How are u posted:I doubt anybody posting itt for the past few years is going to give terfs any leeway. But yeah I could see it happening in other parts of the internet and alt-right culture.
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May 27, 2021 17:17
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:They can hide from people. When Brigitte shows up in TAR and is warning Egwane of danger (I think, might be Nynaeve) Gaidal starts to get on her case about being seen and interfering with events but the other person can't hear or see anyone that Brigitte is responding to, other than a glimpse of a shadow with two swords strapped on their back. Yeah that makes sense, I just think if someone like Verin found out that those heroes were hanging around Tel’aran’rhiod, she would’ve worked until she figured out a way to uncover them.
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May 27, 2021 17:51
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The whole “observing people but not appearing to them (being invisible)” always seemed like an obvious thing Dreamwalkers should know/do. It’s like imagining yourself covered in an invisible cloak instead of some revealing dress like they always accidentally do. The only limit in TAR seemed to be your imagination and Moghedien was the best because she was the most creative.
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May 27, 2021 19:53
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Invalid Validation posted:Still think it’s a cop out for Birgitte to just get to slip back in after it’s all done.
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May 27, 2021 20:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Moderator Hat on: The series itself is nothing but single gender identity both in the social and fantasy narratives of it. Even to the point of complete buffoonism, which none of the characters in the series really reach a point of enlightenment about. The series itself wouldn't survive anything more than a hand waving dismissal approach, which is what we are all doing. Take away men are from mars, women are from venus and you get about 13 scenes from 14 books.
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May 27, 2021 21:25
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Yeah, even though I honestly put it down to RJ's upbringing and ignorance, there's no going around it that WoT itself exhibits anti-trans-bias, it's woven in the foundational premises of the series 
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May 27, 2021 22:41
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Ani posted:She had to slip back in. If Moghedien could rip her out, others could have ripped heroes out in other ages, but the heroes are still there age after age. Heroes do get added over time though, the series shows the induction of a new soul into their ranks in AMoL and Hawkwing's discussion with Mat in TGH implies its not that rare an occurrence. It would make sense that they can also be lost as a way to attrition them or else there should be infinite numbers of them.
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May 27, 2021 22:49
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Zore posted:Heroes do get added over time though, the series shows the induction of a new soul into their ranks in AMoL and Hawkwing's discussion with Mat in TGH implies its not that rare an occurrence. It would make sense that they can also be lost as a way to attrition them or else there should be infinite numbers of them.
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May 27, 2021 22:52
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How are u posted:I doubt anybody posting itt for the past few years is going to give terfs any leeway. But yeah I could see it happening in other parts of the internet and alt-right culture. Multiple have been probated in this thread for minimizing trans issues. Human rights issues are something you need to constantly be vigilant about. "The only people who care about the trans aspects of this are Extremely Online" isn't outright TERFing but it's certainly not great. More specific to the series and the discussion: The show is going to have to either address trans issues or be conspicuous in intentionally ignoring them in a setting built on the concept of sex and gender. You have the Sandman series casting list specifically giving pronouns, it's not a thing you can shove back into obscurity.
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May 28, 2021 00:58
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What you also have to consider is that the Horn of Valere mechanism merely ensures that Hero souls, between lives, are in T'A'R awaiting the horn's call. What those heroes did to get tagged by the Horn of Valere mechanism or how and when they get woven out into the Pattern, are specified by the Wheel and the Pattern and has nothing to do with the Horn or the mechanism that places them in T'A'R between their lifetimes. And in fact, if the Wheel weaves that particular Hero soul out that particular soul is not available to the Horn mechanism at that moment. Whether or not a particular soul is heroic enough to join the Heroes of the Horn is innate to the soul not to the Horn. Unless that soul chooses to retire as a Hero there should be no way to permanently remove them from the Horn (if they can choose to retire). Moghedien may know her way around T'A'R but her understanding of it is still based on the One Power. She tore Birgitte out of T'A'R in a way that she would have tore a regular human being out. The Heroes of the Horn mechanics are beyond her ken.
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May 28, 2021 01:02
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Yeah, plus if Moggy could have killed Birgitte that way it would be, um.... saying she had power on a level with the Creator, I guess? I'm assuming the Heroes are set up by the Creator.
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May 28, 2021 01:31
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Jaxyon posted:You have the Sandman series casting list specifically giving pronouns, it's not a thing you can shove back into obscurity. Speaking of, for people that think the gender issue won't be a thing, there's a character in Sandman named Desire. They are literally the personification of Desire and show up as both a man and a woman throughout the comics ('cause different people desire different genders). The actor they have playing said character uses they/them pronouns and people are FLIPPING OUT about it. Like one, it literally should not matter what someone's pronouns are when they're playing a character, and two the actor's pronouns match in this case. And it's not just far right groups flipping their poo poo, there are random people on Twitter and Reddit getting in on the action. And while Twitter/Reddit are not exactly liberal bastions, and the people flipping out are getting shouted down for the most part, it is happening in a very public sphere so random people will at least catch wind of what's going on. And as much as I love Sandman, that production is not going to generate nearly as much attention as WoT will. WoT is just spending too much money, there are too many book nerds talking about it (as opposed to comic nerds who are seen as super weirdos to the average person), and there are going to be a bunch of people who give it a shot while browsing Prime's listings. AND the gender issues are much more front and center in WoT. So it absolutely is going to become a discussion point at the absolute minimum. It's basically inevitable with this body of work and the "political climate" (ugh) today.
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May 28, 2021 02:27
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aparmenideanmonad posted:I also don't think any current threadposters approve of TERFism, but it might not seem that way for someone new to WOT who stumbles in on some context sensitive apologia for the binary gender essentialism that is "real" in the book universe. It's occurred a few times in well-intentioned discussions since this new thread has popped up, so I think the mod note is warranted given how many awesome people with various identities and experiences read these forums and are likely to check in here once the show releases. This is a really good point I hadn't considered, that discussion of the in-universe rules might be interpreted as approval for those rules Sex equaling gender essentialism is dumb
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May 28, 2021 03:12
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Start with trans actors playing trans characters and work from there. It won't guarantee they get it right but it'll help
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May 28, 2021 04:10
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Torrannor posted:Yeah, even though I honestly put it down to RJ's upbringing and ignorance, there's no going around it that WoT itself exhibits anti-trans-bias, it's woven in the foundational premises of the series Easy solution for the TV series: 1) Don't explain the saidin and saidar distinction, only say that men channelers started going crazy after the Breaking. 2) If plot demands exposition into the two halves of the Source, just say that "men typically draw from saidin" or something along those lines. If the show stays general enough, the issues will only be brought out in a problematic way by idiot fans of the series who think that a nearly 30 year old fantasy series deserves to be somewhat bigoted by virtue of its age.
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May 28, 2021 04:41
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Synastren posted:Easy solution for the TV series: Showing an insane woman from drawing Saidin would be cool as heck
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May 28, 2021 04:50
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Soysaucebeast posted:Speaking of, for people that think the gender issue won't be a thing, there's a character in Sandman named Desire. They are literally the personification of Desire and show up as both a man and a woman throughout the comics ('cause different people desire different genders). The actor they have playing said character uses they/them pronouns and people are FLIPPING OUT about it. Like one, it literally should not matter what someone's pronouns are when they're playing a character, and two the actor's pronouns match in this case. And it's not just far right groups flipping their poo poo, there are random people on Twitter and Reddit getting in on the action. And while Twitter/Reddit are not exactly liberal bastions, and the people flipping out are getting shouted down for the most part, it is happening in a very public sphere so random people will at least catch wind of what's going on. I agree with a lot of this but I don't know I agree that a Neil Gaiman project is lower profile than Robert Jordan one. Get back to me when people start optioning everything he(RJ) has ever written. Even my hypernerd friends aren't talking abou this series but everyone's talking about Sandman casting
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May 28, 2021 05:02
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I kind of doubt that they're going to do that level of rewrite, and I really really doubt the ability of most writers rooms to make it not end up game of thrones S8 level bad. I know that there's some level of success these days in TV adaptations of popular older comic book stuff that's been updated and refined and had some of the errors of the original corrected and improved, but the critical difference there is that I think all of those have had the original authors involved. Idk if it ends up well without that. God knows that sticking to the source (heh) material exactly in this case is not a recipe for success, there's definitely a vast amount of editing needed, but man, what a task. E: ↓↓↓ Yeah lol it's kinda crazy. Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 05:09 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 05:04
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There’s a reason why nobody has really done anything with the WoT IP.
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May 28, 2021 05:07
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Jaxyon posted:I agree with a lot of this but I don't know I agree that a Neil Gaiman project is lower profile than Robert Jordan one. Yeah, I feel like Good Omens was recent and fun so his name's probably much closer to the top of the awareness pile than that of an author who passed away a good while ago?
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May 28, 2021 05:07
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Invalid Validation posted:There’s a reason why nobody has really done anything with the WoT IP. A lot of it is that it's been held ransom by rights squatters until very recently but the problematic bits haven't helped
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May 28, 2021 12:06
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I finished the series last night. Boy howdy am I glad someone else wrote the last 3 books, no way would Jordan's fight scene depictions have worked for a battle of that scale. Still was weird to me how literal the last battle was.
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May 28, 2021 15:32
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Torrannor posted:Yeah, even though I honestly put it down to RJ's upbringing and ignorance, there's no going around it that WoT itself exhibits anti-trans-bias, it's woven in the foundational premises of the series His upbringing and personal beliefs definitely had a strong influence but I think he probably leaned into the saidar/saidin thing as a way to make the worldbuilding and magic system more distinct. That said the implications of those choices add some challenges to any adaptation, which I genuinely hope they've given some thought to navigating with nuance.
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May 28, 2021 15:43
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How many shows even have trans people that aren't just there for a cheap joke? I can think of a few, it's definitely more than it was, but it's still not exactly a lot. I mean gently caress it's only recently that queer characters on TV became semi-common. It's probably like another 10-20 years before trans representation in media becomes widespread. I'd put money on them just ignoring the entire issue and having zero trans representation. They'll probably axe the whole Aran'gar plotline though. That just seems like a can of worms, and it's not particularly necessary anyway. Theoretically, though, is there an issue with just saying that transwomen channel saidin and transmen channel saidar? That seems thematically appropriate to the trans experience. Which magic power you use doesn't determine your gender any more than your chromosomes do.
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