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DaveSauce posted:Reading the listing, I'm guessing that the chargers accept a wide voltage input, but charge faster using 240v. Makes sense to me based on the little I know about battery chargers... IIRC charging speed is going to depend on voltage, all else equal. As I understand it, what people call the "EV charger", at least with AC power charging, isn't really the charge controller or DC rectifier. That's all onboard the car. The box that's in line with the J1772 plug that goes into your car is really just a device that provides GFCI protection and controls whether the relay connecting the car to the mains is open or closed based on the correct handshake for the SAE J1772 signaling procedure. So really the only thing that needs to be modified for whether it's able to handle 120v versus 240v is a relay that won't arc and properly insulated and gauged wires for the higher amps allowed by the higher voltage charging standards.
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Jul 6, 2021 13:58
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Nitrousoxide posted:As I understand it, what people call the "EV charger", at least with AC power charging, isn't really the charge controller or DC rectifier. That's all onboard the car. The box that's in line with the J1772 plug that goes into your car is really just a device that provides GFCI protection and controls whether the relay connecting the car to the mains is open or closed based on the correct handshake for the SAE J1772 signaling procedure. So really the only thing that needs to be modified for whether it's able to handle 120v versus 240v is a relay that won't arc and properly insulated and gauged wires for the higher amps allowed by the higher voltage charging standards. Yeah, I think this hack relies on the fact that car chargers are so dumb. It's ultimately the car that says: oh hey, I have 240 here, I'll pull as much current as allowed by the special resistor on the one pin of the cable. If the charger actually had some safeguards built in, it would code the plugs to their expected voltage/current and throw an error if something is wrong. I think the Tesla cables do this, i.e. you can't put the 15-5 plug on and send it 240v. It's actually amazing how much those car chargers are ripping people off. You pay hundreds for a relay, a few pennies worth of circuitry, and a beefy cable.
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Jul 6, 2021 16:05
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B-Nasty posted:I think the Tesla cables do this, i.e. you can't put the 15-5 plug on and send it 240v. Ya, they do. B-Nasty posted:It's actually amazing how much those car chargers are ripping people off. You pay hundreds for a relay, a few pennies worth of circuitry, a beefy cable, and a house fire. 
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Jul 6, 2021 16:10
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SpartanIvy posted:My assumption is most car chargers are built for both the US and EU market and are a designed to take 120 to 220 volts and the only difference is the plug. This is exactly the case. The EVSE that GM has included with the Gen 2 Volt (2016 onwards) and the 2017-2021 Bolt EV is such a device. It is identical in every way to the unit that was included with the EU version of the Bolt EV (Ampera-E) except for the plug. The input wires on the PCB are even silkscreened with "Line1_in" and "Line2/N_in". The same EVSE is also sold as a "Amazing-E", which is identical internally, but has modified firmware making it 240v only at 16A with a NEMA 14-30 plug attached. GM is not the only manufacturer to do this. I will admit to having made an adapter to plug my Gen2 Volt EVSE into a 6-20 240v outlet in my garage. The device is fixed to 12A regardless of voltage. But it doubled the charging speed from 1.4kW to 2.8kW. I eventually ended up getting a proper hardwired 240v EVSE.
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Jul 6, 2021 16:29
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stevewm posted:I will admit to having made an adapter to plug my Gen2 Volt EVSE into a 6-20 240v outlet in my garage. The device is fixed to 12A regardless of voltage. But it doubled the charging speed from 1.4kW to 2.8kW. I eventually ended up getting a proper hardwired 240v EVSE. See, if this hack had a NEMA 6-15R on the end of it, that would remove most of the concern*. No more: wow, my vacuum cleaner sounds funny and is smoking. *Not including the concern that finding a 2 120v circuits on separate legs almost certainly requires an extension cord, and someone dumb enough to buy this thing will also buy the cheapest 16ga cord at Walmart.
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Jul 6, 2021 16:59
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I've lived in this house for 8 years and have not had any big electrical issues. Sunday night when I was at work my roommate told me that a fuse had blown, he was able to find one at Home Depot and got there before they closed. Woah, problem averted. When I woke up around 10 Monday morning my AC and fan had both turned off. The same exact fuse had failed again. Well the box my roommate bought had four fuses, I put a new one in, went back to bed. The same fuse failed a third time in less than 24 hours. It has been a hot summer in my region. 80-100 F drat near every day for a month, and high humidity, so we've been running some AC units, in addition to a computer and a minifridge; all of these things have been plugged in and running since early June. I'm just confused how even though we've been putting roughly the same amount of stress on that fuse for a month it was a-ok until last night. The fuse in question is rated for 15A, and since then we've unplugged the minifridge and computer. Two of the AC units are off except for when people are sleeping in those rooms. I ran an extension cord from the ground floor up the stairs to power the one in the hallway. The fuse has not failed since Monday morning, so it made it through last night with our ACs running, but obviously this extension cord down the stairs thing is a real stop gap solution and at some point I need to make a real fix somewhere. Any advice is appreciated.
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Jul 6, 2021 19:41
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My water heater has been plugged into an extension cord ever since it was installed. I'm remodeling the laundry room so I'm going to add an outlet close enough for the power cable to reach. I'll use a surface mount metal outlet box and run the wire down from the ceiling in a flexible steel conduit. I want to put the outlet in the empty space beneath the green components. I'd run the wire conduit to the left of the heater box. Is there any reason not to put it where I've indicated in the picture? I could also mount it above the heater box behind the exhaust pipe, or to the right of the heater box behind the hot water tank. 
Vim Fuego fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 20:01
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B-Nasty posted:See, if this hack had a NEMA 6-15R on the end of it, that would remove most of the concern*. No more: wow, my vacuum cleaner sounds funny and is smoking. There's also the issue that when this is in use, you are actually passing 240V through the hot leg of two 5-15P/5-15R combos that are only rated for 120V. I think the only way you could make this with 100% "approved for 240V" parts would be to basically add some form of 240V-rated receptacle at each of the 120V receptacles you're going to leech off of, and wire up the cable to match. But I'd expect wiring 6-15R with hot/neutral instead of hot/hot would also be a code violation. Maybe something oddball like IEC C14? But nobody who will run a hack like this will do anything involving running a new receptacle, because then you could just install a proper receptacle for your EV. As far as modifying the EVSE or sticking a 5-15R-to-some-form-of-240V adapter on it so that you can plug it into an actual 240V circuit, again seems like the "right" way would be to modify the EVSE to have a C14 inlet and then just get appropriate C13-to-whatever cables, so you're never actually passing 240V through a 5-15. Vim Fuego posted:My water heater has been plugged in This is a thing? Every water heater I've ever seen has been hardwired with MC armored cable. Why not do that here?
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Jul 6, 2021 20:21
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More and more appliances are going to plug in cords because people are too dumb to do it themselves and too cheap to hire an electrician. So appliances being equal, people buy a plugged model.
SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 20:48
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Well it's a hydronic boiler. I don't know why it's got a cord vs. hardwire, that's just how it was made. I don't think it uses much electricity it just has to run the computer, the pumps, and fire the gas igniters.
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Jul 6, 2021 21:08
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SpartanIvy posted:More and more appliances are going to plug in cords because people are too dumb to do it themselves and too cheap to hire an electrician. So appliances being equal, people buy a plugged model. Also, it provides a means of disconnect right at the device and you can convert the outlet to a GFCI. If I had a nickel for every garbage disposal I've seen that didn't have a NM clamp (let alone actual MC cable) and just let the Romex rub on the knockout and flap in the breeze under the sink...
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Jul 6, 2021 21:09
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B-Nasty posted:Also, it provides a means of disconnect right at the device and you can convert the outlet to a GFCI. Dishwashers, too. They all come with a plug now for exactly this reason.
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Jul 6, 2021 21:47
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sharkytm posted:Dishwashers, too. They all come with a plug now for exactly this reason. All the better to run an extension cord up from the basement and run the dishwasher off the dryer circuit (note: circuit is for a gas dryer so not sure why it needs a dedicated circuit)
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Jul 6, 2021 21:49
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Ok, I dug out the owners manual and read through the installation section. Looks like it's expected to be hardwired. And it basically is, in a sense. The power wires from the unit go into this surface mount metal box. The wires are then pigtailed onto the black cable, which is a 120v plug. The original installer must have added it. So that one plug powers the boiler unit and the two zone switching relays. Although I could replace the black plug wire with a hardwire setup I don't see any reason to mess with it because it works fine. If I should hardwire it I will. But I think the original installer knew what he was doing. When I add the outlet for it should I do a GFCI? Vim Fuego fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 22:27
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Where does that extension cord go? If it's the input power to the metal junction box, that's a massive code violation. That needs a proper feed, like how the connections to the zone relay and boiler were done.FISHMANPET posted:All the better to run an extension cord up from the basement and run the dishwasher off the dryer circuit (note: circuit is for a gas dryer so not sure why it needs a dedicated circuit) You think you're funny.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:41
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The metal surface mount box pictured connects both zone relays and the boiler power to the black 120v cable with a plug at the end. That gets power from the extension cord. The extension cord is plugged into an outlet elsewhere in the laundry room. Sounds like it is indeed a massive code violation and I should forget adding an outlet and instead just bring an actual power wire in and hardwire all three connections inside the electrical box.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:46
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Vim Fuego posted:The metal surface mount box pictured connects both zone relays and the boiler power to the black 120v cable with a plug at the end. That gets power from the extension cord. The extension cord is plugged into an outlet elsewhere in the laundry room. Sounds like it is indeed a massive code violation and I should forget adding an outlet and instead just bring an actual power wire in and hardwire all three connections inside the electrical box. Yeesh. Yeah, run a proper line to the box, and then you can branch off the existing metal box to add a receptacle. Pay attention to your box fill numbers too, you've currently got 12x #14 (I think) wires spliced in the box. That's 24 CI. Adding another 3 brings it up to 30 CI. The weird thing is that the install actually looks decent. Good plumber, bad/nonexistent electrician?
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Jul 6, 2021 23:29
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Vim Fuego posted:The metal surface mount box pictured connects both zone relays and the boiler power to the black 120v cable with a plug at the end. That gets power from the extension cord. The extension cord is plugged into an outlet elsewhere in the laundry room. Sounds like it is indeed a massive code violation and I should forget adding an outlet and instead just bring an actual power wire in and hardwire all three connections inside the electrical box. No. The circulation pumps and water heater both require "disconnecting means". They can all be on the same disconnecting means since they are all parts of the same system. Your plan to add a close outlet outlet is the way to go. If this is in a laundry room then the new outlet will be required to be GFCI. Every gas water heater that I've seen the last decade that requires 120V comes with a cord and plug. edit: also your jbox needs a proper ground screw edit2: to be clear, an outlet and cord/plug is an acceptable disconnect. edit3: powering this system/ metal jbox with a cord and plug is not a code violation. Using an extension cord as permanent wiring is, but you are correcting that with your original plan. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jul 7, 2021 |
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Jul 7, 2021 00:08
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Ok, great. I'll install a GFCI outlet and plug into that. I'll replace the drywall screw with a proper ground screw also.
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Jul 7, 2021 01:02
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Blackbeer posted:No. The circulation pumps and water heater both require "disconnecting means". They can all be on the same disconnecting means since they are all parts of the same system. Your plan to add a close outlet outlet is the way to go. If this is in a laundry room then the new outlet will be required to be GFCI. Yeah, I wasn't clear. The extension cord is the problem. My boiler is wired similarly, except they didn't cut the cord off. I've got a box with a GFCI receptacle with a switch on the input (disconnecting means), and the condensate pump plugs into that receptacle. The boiler, pumps, and relay controller are powered via the same box via conduit.
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Jul 7, 2021 01:31
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Ok. Gfci installed and the cord is now plugged into the gfci without an extension cord. Thanks wiring thread!
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Jul 7, 2021 04:36
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rear end-penny posted:I've lived in this house for 8 years and have not had any big electrical issues. Sunday night when I was at work my roommate told me that a fuse had blown, he was able to find one at Home Depot and got there before they closed. Woah, problem averted. When I woke up around 10 Monday morning my AC and fan had both turned off. The same exact fuse had failed again. Well the box my roommate bought had four fuses, I put a new one in, went back to bed. The same fuse failed a third time in less than 24 hours. I promised not to reply to it ITT but I think this poster just needs to move some stuff to a different circuit, right?
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Jul 7, 2021 20:09
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Rufio posted:My hunch is that this circuit is sharing a neutral with your bedroom circuit. So when something in your bedroom was on while you were working, it put a load on that white wire and shocked you. I think the only other wires I'm seeing in there are the ones connected to the other yellow wire nut (not the one with the ground wire). It's joining a black and a red wire that both go back into the wall without connecting to anything else.    edit: Once I got all the power off I wired it back together mirroring the previous situation as keeping this circuit off indefinitely wasn't really viable.
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Jul 7, 2021 20:18
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Kase Im Licht posted:I think the only other wires I'm seeing in there are the ones connected to the other yellow wire nut (not the one with the ground wire). It's joining a black and a red wire that both go back into the wall without connecting to anything else. Yep that's what I thought. Everything looks normal. I'd hook it back up like you found it, except I suggest you pigtail out the white wires. You don't want to ever use the stab in part of the receptacle and you can put only one wire under each screw. So you want to take a small section of white wire, connect it to those three under a wire nut and then connect just that single wire to the receptacle.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:19
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Is there a likely reason it's connected to another circuit?
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Jul 8, 2021 12:29
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Just the ease of pulling one wire instead of two. Actually they should be on a two pole breaker in your panel so the situation like you had doesn't occur.
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Jul 8, 2021 12:43
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Gut check: if I pay an electrician to inspect my wiring and give me a quote for rewiring all the knob & tube, and they don't bother to look at how the new service ties into the k&t in the attic, and doesn't even take the cover off the main circuit panel to look inside, I probably shouldn't bother to hire them for the job, right?
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Jul 12, 2021 14:29
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FISHMANPET posted:Gut check: if I pay an electrician to inspect my wiring and give me a quote for rewiring all the knob & tube, and they don't bother to look at how the new service ties into the k&t in the attic, and doesn't even take the cover off the main circuit panel to look inside, I probably shouldn't bother to hire them for the job, right? If they knew you wanted an opinion on the K&T yes don't hire them. If they thought you just wanted a bid to rewire it's neither here nor there if they looked at the state of the mess. What did they say when asked about the K&T?
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Jul 12, 2021 14:35
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It was specifically a "knob & tube" inspection. I mean, on one hand they know it's there already. And you're right that the end goal is to get rid of it by rewiring, so I'm not sure how valuable it is to know how exactly it's wired if you're going to run new everything. But not looking in the panel seems kind of strange to me as well. I had another electrician here a few weeks ago that went looking for the knob & tube in the attic, found the old service, and put some electrical tape around the wires that had been chewed up so we didn't immediately die. He also opened up the panel and discovered that we have an awful lot of shared neutrals, and did give us a quote for rewiring the whole thing. The first guy did a lot of work to understand the house whereas the second one basically just counted receptacles and is gonna use that to give us a quote. I knew this second company would be cheaper (they won't repair the holes in the wall they make, for example) but I don't want to cheap out on the actual electrical work.
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Jul 12, 2021 14:49
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FISHMANPET posted:It was specifically a "knob & tube" inspection. I mean, on one hand they know it's there already. And you're right that the end goal is to get rid of it by rewiring, so I'm not sure how valuable it is to know how exactly it's wired if you're going to run new everything. But not looking in the panel seems kind of strange to me as well.
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Jul 12, 2021 18:39
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Slugworth posted:If your choice is between a guy sort of at least a little bit phoning in his inspection and a guy that did some free (?) work to make you safer during his inspection, the choice seems clear, provided you can afford the higher estimate. +1 The cheaper one didn't do a K&T inspection, they quoted you a whole house rewire w/ new panel. It doesn't matter what exists if that's all you plan to do.
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Jul 12, 2021 19:13
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Did the first guy charge you for the work/estimate? The other guy may have just been coming to do an estimate and wasn't gonna start digging around since he knew everything would be replaced. Basically the only thing you need to know about knob and tube is that it needs to go. I don't need to look at it to tell you that. Also on a job that size, I'd find a painter to do all the patching instead of letting the electrical guys do it/contract it out.
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Jul 12, 2021 19:45
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The first electrician was brought in to "prove" that there was no knob & tube in the exterior walls before we got insulation installed, and it turns out we did have it in the exterior wall. He was able to figure out what to look for, and went into the attic to find the old service entrance for the knob & tube where it was tied into the 1965 service upgrade. It was a general electrical inspection that I paid for so he looked at all sorts of stuff. He opened up the panel and counted the hots and neutrals and figured I had a lot of shared neutrals (that weren't protected by shared neutral breakers). That company apparently has a guy that just does knob & tube rewires, and my inspector called him and they talked about the house and the "guy" said it would be about a 5-day job so my inspector did some calculations on his calculator and came out with $22k for the rewire. The second was just brought in for a quote on a knob & tube rewire, so he brought in a couple of guys and just looked at every outlet, took some notes, and said he'd get me an estimate by the end of the week. I paid more for the first inspection than I did for the 2nd quote (and I did pay the first electrician to do the minor fixes he did). I get a sense that the first one did a much better job "understanding" the wiring, though if you're just going to replace it all maybe that's not particularly useful. I don't have the second quote yet obviously, but I guess we'll see what the price difference is and how much I think that "understanding" is worth, vs just having someone pull wires. The first electrician was recommended to me by a non-profit that does energy audits and works with insulation contractors. The non-profit wanted to confirm the lack of knob & tube before their insulation contractor would come in. The second was a recommendation from a coworker who had the company do some work and they were significantly cheaper than other quotes. They don't do the drywall stuff, and maybe electricians normally do that, so that's why they're so reliably cheaper than others? They're a bigger firm, not just a guy with a truck, so I think I'd trust them to do the work well.
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Jul 13, 2021 05:01
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those both sound like reasonable things competent people would do. if you're doing a new panel and rewiring everything it doesn't really matter what's up with the knob & tube. when we still did residential work my boss knew a few good drywall/painting companies and would include them in his estimates, but he just liked to do it that way because the customers like it. leaving the patching up to you isn't strange at all. if it were me i'd go with the first guy and eat the extra cost because he's more familiar with the situation and has already shown the kind of attention to detail i like. i've seen too much of what gets built by big companies who "know what they're doing." but it's not fair for me to assume anything about the second guy, and if it's a referral he probably already did some good work. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Jul 13, 2021 |
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Jul 13, 2021 12:37
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Speaking as a "guy with a truck", I can definitely say that you won't always get better work just because they work for a big company. I've seen the opposite plenty of times, both working for them and being called in after them. Electrical work isn't rocket science and there isn't some special technique one company is gonna use that's gonna make them way better than the other most likely. A lot of time picking a contractor comes down to which dude gave you a better impression. And it isn't always the right move to pick someone based on a low bid. I say go with your gut.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:00
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I'm looking for a low voltage digital timer switch. The switch is to control the hydronic towel warmer in the bathroom. The towel warmer has to be on for a while before it warms up. The heat is from hot water, but it takes an electrical signal to run it. The switch circuit is 5v. When it was originally installed my contractor installed a mechanical timer because he said there wasn't a good low voltage option. I didn't like the ticking from the mechanical unit so I installed a normal on-off switch. This works fine and is silent, but it's hard to remember to turn it on and then turn it off later. I'd like something that turns it on, keeps it on for a while, then turns it off later automatically. If it has a scheduled on feature then that's fine, but I don't tend to use those. Because the towel warmer takes a while to heat up it would be best if the unit had 2 and 4 hour settings. https://www.amazon.com/GE-Countdown-Required-Included-15318/dp/B007BJULYS/ Something with buttons for 30 min, 1hr, 2hr, 4hr like this unit would be good, but it doesn't look like this particular switch will work with the low voltage circuit. Is there any switch that has the buttons I want that will work with the circuit that I have? Ideally it'll fit in a single gang box, because that's what's currently in there, although I can swap it if necessary. Vim Fuego fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 18:16
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Vim Fuego posted:I'm looking for a low voltage digital timer switch. The switch is to control the hydronic towel warmer in the bathroom. The towel warmer has to be on for a while before it warms up. The heat is from hot water, but it takes an electrical signal to run it. The switch circuit is 5v. A RIB would be a great solution, but they don't fit in a 1-gang box. What you need is a timer relay with 120V controls and LV dry contacts. There are lots of industrial controls like that, but I don't know any residential-type all-in-one boxes.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:25
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Hmm. Running 120v to it would involve more work. Maybe there's a battery powered digital timer with low voltage contacts.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:46
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I have a similarly old house with a mixture of knob & tube and some fairly recent rewires. I want to upgrade to a 200 amp panel and rewire what hasn't been updated (at least 9 outlets on one side of the house). So far I've received two quotes, both from people who just did a visual inspection. 1. $7K from a bigger, out of town company that includes $3,800 for replacing the outside meter and upgrade overhead service 2. $2.6K plus $85/hour for the rewire from a guy with a truck, who said he didn't feel able to quote a fixed price without doing more investigation; but that the meter upgrade was included in that price and the overhead likely didn't need updating (looks fairly new). My gut says to go with the second electrician. My concern is that he's missing something obvious and the final cost is going to balloon up to the same or more than the first company.
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Jul 14, 2021 19:24
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sim posted:My gut says to go with the second electrician. My concern is that he's missing something obvious and the final cost is going to balloon up to the same or more than the first company. Time and materials quotes are almost always the way to go. If someone is flat-quoting a job like that, they're going to add a significant margin for all the unforeseen issues so that they don't get burned. T&M is much fairer to everyone: the contractor knows they won't get screwed and the homeowner pays for what is actually done, not a pulled-out-of-rear end quote. Most contractors that do a flat-quote and miscalculated their margin are not going to give you free work. They'll half-rear end something or use cheaper materials or run away unfinished to make sure they stay in the black.
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Jul 14, 2021 19:54
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