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Inspector 34 posted:I hope the show does a good job illustrating just how bad some of these characters suck. Make it obvious that Elayne gets people killed all the time and that Gawyn is just totally useless. Do it without making the show itself terrible please. This is really weird framing considering everyone else gets people killed all the time and the morale of the exercise, for them, is, people die, get over it.
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Jul 9, 2021 13:25
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Those born into leadership never were burdened by giving a gently caress
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Jul 9, 2021 13:31
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Elayne annoys me because, in the end, she gets everything she wanted and loses nothing while also seeming to never introspect. My memory of the last books is vague but I found her eye rollingly tedious when she kept trying to get one over on Mat.
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Jul 9, 2021 13:34
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That’s pretty much why everyone hates her. She shoulda just been a cool angreal maker and forget about the throne.
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Jul 9, 2021 13:36
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thrawn527 posted:The next tease will be the flame and the void, and everyone will claim it's ripping off this: Are you afraid of the Dark... One's Taint?
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Jul 9, 2021 13:56
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Invalid Validation posted:That’s pretty much why everyone hates her. She shoulda just been a cool angreal maker and forget about the throne. Is she'd given up Andor and supported Dyelin so she could go to Cairhien and claim that throne, I would have actually been fully on the Elayne train tbh, which is why I was so very annoyed by the Caemlyn story. It would have growth, loss and personal development. Oh well.
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Jul 9, 2021 14:27
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Cavelcade posted:Elayne annoys me because, in the end, she gets everything she wanted and loses nothing while also seeming to never introspect. The brother she likes betrays her and dies, the Amyrlin Seat who is a close friend and ally dies and is replaced by one who is neither, the brother she doesn't like is now the leader of an organization with "Aes Sedai are evil" as their core philosophy, her warder gets executed in front of her, and the city she sacrificed nearly everything else to rule burns to the ground. Elayne loses a lot of what's important to her. That she manages to hold it together all the way through the Last Battle is a testament to her strength of character, not that she suffers no consequences. That Sanderson doesn't show how much she's affected by what she loses is his fault as a writer, not Elayne's as a character.
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Jul 9, 2021 14:46
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I thought the bit at the last battle where Mellar does find her and poo poo looks very bleak right before Birgitte comes back through the Horn was definitely written very expressively in terms of what you're getting at there. The other stuff, yeah, you have a point, but also all that stuff happens so near the end of the book that there's no real time to show the impact on the characters. Gawyn's idiocy, Egwene's sacrifice, meeting with and coming to terms with Galad, the burning of Caemlyn, etc, are all stacked up right on top of each other in the midst of an extremely busy book that couldn't really afford to stop and take the time without ruining the flow. I wish we had gotten to see more of the come down from the last battle, and the time leading up to it- Like the HBO series style of putting the huge season climax/explosive episode as the second to last one in a season, then using the actual last ep to show the fallout, tie up loose ends, show you how all the characters are dealing with whatever happened, and just generally leave you content with the story instead of frustrated that you have to wait for another season now.
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Jul 9, 2021 14:58
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jng2058 posted:The brother she likes betrays her and dies, the Amyrlin Seat who is a close friend and ally dies and is replaced by one who is neither, the brother she doesn't like is now the leader of an organization with "Aes Sedai are evil" as their core philosophy, her warder gets executed in front of her, and the city she sacrificed nearly everything else to rule burns to the ground. Birgitte pops back to reassure her that she's okay, actually. People close to her dying (does Gawyn betray her??) doesn't feel a sacrifice for her - everyone else who cared about them suffers that as well. Maybe sacrifice would have been more accurate than loss. The problem with Caemlyn burning is that her behaviour always seemed to indicate she cared more about ruling it; otherwise, she should have supported Dyelin to take the throne. So, the city was damaged but her still being in charge of the ashes actually doesn't strike me as a loss for her. I never got a sense of Elayne as having a strong character, just an amazing sense of entitlement that the narrative ends up feeding. Maybe that impacts the way I assess the things that happen later on, and the fact that her stubborn insistence on her right to rule meant we got stuck in Caemlyn for so long absolutely spinning our wheels.
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Jul 9, 2021 14:59
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Cavelcade posted:The problem with Caemlyn burning is that her behaviour always seemed to indicate she cared more about ruling it; otherwise, she should have supported Dyelin to take the throne. So, the city was damaged but her still being in charge of the ashes actually doesn't strike me as a loss for her. I mean, she literally did offer to step aside for Dyelin at least once during the succession (and probably more often, god I don't remember most of the Elayne chapters in Caemlyn). Dyelin refused, and made it clear continuously that she did not want to be queen unless as a last resort.
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Jul 9, 2021 17:20
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Gully Foyle posted:I mean, she literally did offer to step aside for Dyelin at least once during the succession (and probably more often, god I don't remember most of the Elayne chapters in Caemlyn). Dyelin refused, and made it clear continuously that she did not want to be queen unless as a last resort. My memory is that when she gets there, Dyelin asks what she intends, Elayne says she's going to claim the throne and Dyelin says cool, I'm with you. I remember them discussing whether she should step aside but I don't remember her actually offering. My books are not nearby, though, and I could be misremembering. Like I said, I hated that whole storyline.
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Jul 9, 2021 17:52
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:This is really weird framing considering everyone else gets people killed all the time and the morale of the exercise, for them, is, people die, get over it. I think it's not, there's a huge difference between the two. The three boys constantly feel terrible and try to get people to not risk themselves for the sake of them. Perrin and Mat take charge only when they have to and only to save other people's lives, Rand is just going nuts. It's most pronounced in Rand but all three need to learn that people are choosing to risk their lives for them, and some of them will die. Those three take the people who die for them seriously as hell. Elayne doesn't need to learn that people die, she needs to learn they're people. The whole series she's saying how a queen or a noble owes their people just as much as the people owe them. The only thing she ever shows her people is trying to feed them and then getting a shitload of them killed so she can be queen and saying "They need a symbol". No, "I can't die until my babies are born" doesn't protect literally anyone else. They need someone competent who gives a poo poo about them, not who ignores good advice and gets a shitload of people killed who didn't need to die. The biggest display of this is when she threatens to have Perrin executed because a district the Queens of Andor had abandoned for generations needed someone to lead them in a fight against Trollocs so they wouldn't die and be eaten and he stepped up. If she really cared about the people, she might have started with "Previous queens hosed up, I'm not going to. You be a high lord and I'll act like I give a poo poo about the Two Rivers beyond bitching about how they didn't kneel well enough." seaborgium fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 10, 2021 |
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Jul 10, 2021 01:57
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Last of all, there is nowhere and nowhen a monarch is going to go along with a guy who already owns 2 other nations wanting to take a chunk of her own country without putting up some kind of resistance or show thereof. I mean unless you're a GOP president and Putin wants Alaska back or something VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 10, 2021 |
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Jul 10, 2021 02:54
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Raising a banner and proclaiming yourself a lord is rebellion against the throne. She knows he meant no such thing, and immediately finds an excuse as to why it is OK, but not calling his rebellion a rebellion will only encourage more rebellions. Fundamentally no different from when Rand had to order a man he liked hanged because to do otherwise would go against his own decrees.
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Jul 10, 2021 02:56
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Gnoman posted:Raising a banner and proclaiming yourself a lord is rebellion against the throne. She knows he meant no such thing, and immediately finds an excuse as to why it is OK, but not calling his rebellion a rebellion will only encourage more rebellions. Fundamentally no different from when Rand had to order a man he liked hanged because to do otherwise would go against his own decrees. Except functionally it wasn't part of her country. She can claim it on a hundred year old map all she wants, but my point is she and all the queens before her abandoned it. Famine? Two Rivers better find some food Queen's busy playing politics. Trollocs? gently caress that, she's busy getting her bodyguards killed. Bandits? Best form their own militia, no way is she going to help them. Better not have a flag though, she'll hang them for that. She can't say Saldea or Amadicia is in rebellion against her because they have a flag and banded together for their own defense. She doesn't collect taxes from the Two Rivers or help them in any way, shape, or form. They owe her nothing. They're on their own, and the Queens of Andor made it that way. They aren't part of Andor whatever she says, and antagonizing an area known for it's insane archery and ability to hide in the woods with fanatical devotion to a noble who actually gives a poo poo about them, that just recently became a massive industrial powerhouse, is in a perfect geographical position to cut off her access to Andor's mining industry, with ties to not only a major Borderland crown but has another nation's queen as a sworn vassal seems like an idiotic way to handle the whole situation. Anyone who gave a poo poo about their people would have owned up to the fact he brought her a giant gift on a plate, and if she'd had half a brain would have realized if he was really rebelling there's no way she could have stopped him. Hell, have Faile spread rumors that they were in contact with her the whole time as a ploy to bring the Two Rivers closer to the crown. Bam, rebellion rumors squashed, she looks good and everyone comes away happy and rich. Rand hung a dude because of his decrees because he owns up to what he's doing. He's paying for his actions. She just gets other people killed and thinks it's because they owe her. My main point, though, is that she keeps saying fealty is a two way street followed by promptly ignoring a good chunk of her realm that needs her. The ta'varen needed to learn to let people risk their lives for them, she needed to learn they are actually people. That's why she annoys me so much.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:39
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It doesn't matter how strong her rule is. It is still part of her country. Rebellion there would very easily spread to more securely held lands. Never mind that he raised the banner of Manetheren, which is a legend so powerful that the Seanchan feared it. Ignoring it would be extremely stupid.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:46
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seaborgium posted:Except functionally it wasn't part of her country. She can claim it on a hundred year old map all she wants, but my point is she and all the queens before her abandoned it. Famine? Two Rivers better find some food Queen's busy playing politics. Trollocs? gently caress that, she's busy getting her bodyguards killed. Bandits? Best form their own militia, no way is she going to help them. Better not have a flag though, she'll hang them for that. She can't say Saldea or Amadicia is in rebellion against her because they have a flag and banded together for their own defense. She doesn't collect taxes from the Two Rivers or help them in any way, shape, or form. They owe her nothing. I only read the first 2 sentences. Have you not lived long enough or what
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Jul 10, 2021 03:46
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Overall I'm still on team "he did as good a job as anyone could have done" with regards to how Sanderson finished off the series and I remain glad that he did. Janny Wurts would have been my pick. She's of a generation with Jordan, has a more compatible prose style and has show that she can do great work in other author's sandboxes.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:46
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I appreciate that someone finished it, but I can't read it again. It gives me uncanny valley vibes that kind of make my skin crawl.
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Jul 10, 2021 04:27
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It's weird, but we are so loving lucky to have an ending to the story that I don't see the point to criticize, cause no one ever could have done the job. Everything coulda been better. But 14 years later at least we have an ending. RJ could be like GRRM and still be alive and just laughing at his fans from his own literal castle. We got it alright. E: skin crawling is kinda weird to say but w/e
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Jul 10, 2021 04:34
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Yeah I still do not understand the criticisms being anything more than "it wasn't what he would have written but I'm glad it got an ending". Never have, never will.
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Jul 10, 2021 21:28
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silvergoose posted:Yeah I still do not understand the criticisms being anything more than "it wasn't what he would have written but I'm glad it got an ending". Never have, never will. Also no one will admit 100% what was Brandon and what was directly written by Jordan. So it is even possible that some of the things people blame Brandon for were because it was 1st draft Jordan that no one wanted to replace. I thought it was decently done and I'll never blame any writer for not getting it 100% correct. There are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time but it was an ending.
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Jul 10, 2021 22:01
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I just liked that Rand got a chance at a life.
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Jul 10, 2021 22:06
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Mage_Boy posted:Also no one will admit 100% what was Brandon and what was directly written by Jordan. So it is even possible that some of the things people blame Brandon for were because it was 1st draft Jordan that no one wanted to replace. I thought it was decently done and I'll never blame any writer for not getting it 100% correct. There are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time but it was an ending. We know the epilogue were mostly jordan. And apparently at least some of the ewgene stuff was jordan as well
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Jul 10, 2021 22:08
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Mage_Boy posted:Also no one will admit 100% what was Brandon and what was directly written by Jordan. So it is even possible that some of the things people blame Brandon for were because it was 1st draft Jordan that no one wanted to replace. I thought it was decently done and I'll never blame any writer for not getting it 100% correct. There are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time but it was an ending. This sorta reminds me of people who complain about bad CGI in TV and movies, like when the ep of GoT came out with Brienne fighting the bear and the internet was filled with "THE BEAR LOOKS FAKE WTF" takes. But it was a real rear end bear.
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Jul 10, 2021 22:10
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Mage_Boy posted:Also no one will admit 100% what was Brandon and what was directly written by Jordan. So it is even possible that some of the things people blame Brandon for were because it was 1st draft Jordan that no one wanted to replace. I thought it was decently done and I'll never blame any writer for not getting it 100% correct. There are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time but it was an ending. Yeah my strong suspicion is that that's exactly what happened with the Tower of Genji sequence, first draft Jordan.
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Jul 10, 2021 22:48
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is it me or is there an increase of min's pet names for rand when sanderson takes over?
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Jul 11, 2021 00:02
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Brolander posted:is it me or is there an increase of min's pet names for rand when sanderson takes over? All I know is that Kate Reading forgot Min's voice in the last few audiobooks. It's a consistent voice she uses, too, just not what she'd used for Min earlier and it sounds all wrong for Min. (Her Min voice was fine earlier, which is why I say "forgot".) It's kind of high and ... small?, when I think Min is always described as "low and throaty."
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Jul 11, 2021 01:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah my strong suspicion is that that's exactly what happened with the Tower of Genji sequence, first draft Jordan. I remember when it came out that they did admit that some of the Mat portions were Jordan, just because people kept complaining that Sanderson had messed it up. Might have been just a story though.
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Jul 11, 2021 01:18
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Mage_Boy posted:Also no one will admit 100% what was Brandon and what was directly written by Jordan. So it is even possible that some of the things people blame Brandon for were because it was 1st draft Jordan that no one wanted to replace. I thought it was decently done and I'll never blame any writer for not getting it 100% correct. There are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time but it was an ending. The main thing that I think feels Sandersony is all the stupid gateway hijinks. I kept expecting Androl to do stupid Portal tricks like "I make a gateway under this iron cube with the other end up in the air, and then I catch the cube with a gateway near the ground and use that momentum to launch it like a catapult into the
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Jul 11, 2021 01:21
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Yea he seemed like a Sanderson original but the lava portal was kinda fun. Logain needed more poo poo to do though, shoulda just given him some fancy stupid power.
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Jul 11, 2021 01:22
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I'm re-reading the great hunt. Who kills lord Barthanos(spelling). The dude with the way gate in his basement. It says he was torn apart when Thom is getting ready to kill him. Was it the gholam or did I miss something?
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Jul 11, 2021 01:44
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea he seemed like a Sanderson original but the lava portal was kinda fun. Logain needed more poo poo to do though, shoulda just given him some fancy stupid power. I think Logain (and Androl, a little bit) are victims of end of the series-itis. There were too many balls in the air to really develop them until the rush at the end, so it feels like Androl's stuff comes out of nowhere, and Logain is barely on screen after he gets set free from Salidar. He's got, what, 2? 3? scenes before the last battle? If, like, 1/3 of Perrin's moping while chasing Faile scenes were spread out to show more of what's going on with the Black tower or showing Logain finding more people with oddball skills like Androl then it wouldn't stick out as much. (The lava gateway was sick as hell tho for real. At least Androl wasn't the only one doing cool stuff with gateways, too- The Grey Aes Sedai using them for eyes in the sky, and using them to fire all the Dragons from safety to anywhere they're needed) Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Jul 11, 2021 |
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Jul 11, 2021 01:47
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RC Cola posted:I'm re-reading the great hunt. Who kills lord Barthanos(spelling). The dude with the way gate in his basement. It says he was torn apart when Thom is getting ready to kill him. Isnt it the kings assassins?
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Jul 11, 2021 03:04
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RC Cola posted:I'm re-reading the great hunt. Who kills lord Barthanos(spelling). The dude with the way gate in his basement. It says he was torn apart when Thom is getting ready to kill him. I don't think it is ever clearly spelled out but I believe the implication is that that is the first appearance of the gholam, yes.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:17
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I just assumed it was a group of Trollocs and Myrddraal, they were the biggest threats around at that time outside of Baalzamon.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:19
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The wiki agrees it was probably the Gholam. I'd always thought it was just Myrdraal, trollocs, or even just other darkfriends being preformatively brutal to send a message of some sort.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:20
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It seems like it'd be too early for the gholam though, surely? I think its first shown killing Fel, in 6? I just sort of assumed it was found in one of the stasis boxes mentioned by the Chosen to each other.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:35
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I agree it seems really unlikely the gholam was free yet.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:40
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Whose idea was it to recreate the battle of Cannae beat for beat, Jordan or Sanderson? I was like "I cannae believe it"
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