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eXXon posted:Luckily Tesla autopilot will just drive the car right back into their home with no human intervention whatsoever, just scan your fingerprint here to accept the $16,942.00 charge. Fixed
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Jul 31, 2021 19:01
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, this is one place Hybrids really shine, I'd like to see more ICE supplemented hybrid/electric vehicles like the Chevy Volt, but I'd like to see more things like Diesel Electrics where the battery can be supplemented by an efficient diesel generator driving the electric motors or charging the batteries between plug in charges. Diesel engines have their cons as well, like lower power density, so the electrics have to haul around more dead weight.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:59
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Platystemon posted:Diesel engines have their cons as well, like lower power density, so the electrics have to haul around more dead weight. That's not really true anymore: There's plenty of aluminum block diesels now, and joules per gram for diesel is much higher, as well as thermodynamic efficiency of a turbodiesel. Its not a much dead weight as you imagine. You don't need even a 4 cylinder diesel to charge batteries or drive electric motors, so imagine like a 1.2l Turbodiesel driving a generator just to keep batteries charged. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 31, 2021 |
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Jul 31, 2021 23:28
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CommieGIR posted:That's not really true anymore: There's plenty of aluminum block diesels now, and joules per gram for diesel is much higher, as well as thermodynamic efficiency of a turbodiesel. Its not a much dead weight as you imagine. Forgive me - I know basically nothing about cars - but how is a diesel generator being used to charge batteries in an electric car any more efficient (/better for the environment) than the car just using a diesel engine?
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Jul 31, 2021 23:35
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CommieGIR posted:joules per gram for diesel is much higher Nah you’re thinking joules per litre, but a litre of diesel is heavier and they almost exactly balance out. Gasoline actually takes the edge in joules per gram on paper by a couple percent, not that that’s meaningful.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:41
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blunt posted:Forgive me - I know basically nothing about cars - but how is a diesel generator being used to charge batteries in an electric car any more efficient (/better for the environment) than the car just using a diesel engine? It enables the car to use an engine sized for average power demands and to run that engine at its most efficient speed and load (which is close to its maximum output). For quick acceleration, energy is pulled from the batteries. The internal combustion engine can keep up with power demands at highway speeds and slowly recharge the battery for the next acceleration event.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:44
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Platystemon posted:Nah you’re thinking joules per litre, but a litre of diesel is heavier and they almost exactly balance out. Gasoline actually takes the edge in joules per gram on paper by a couple percent, not that that’s meaningful. Gonna disagree since diesels continue to hold some of the best fuel efficiencies in road going vehicles. It doesnt even out as much as that. And when combined with just the need to generate current and not mechanical motion, they can hit their peak efficiency more often. The big weakness to diesels is city driving, but a diesel electric gets around that by not being tied to the wheels though a transmission. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jul 31, 2021 |
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Jul 31, 2021 23:55
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CommieGIR posted:Gonna disagree since diesels continue to hold some of the best fuel efficiencies in road going vehicles. Are we talking about the energy density of the fuel or the power density of the engine? “Joules per gram” implies the former. “Watts per gram” would imply the latter.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:57
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Platystemon posted:Are we talking about the energy density of the fuel or the power density of the engine? Energy density of the fuel. And even when it comes to energy density versus motor weight, the idea that it evens out is not held up by road going diesels and trucks continuing to be more efficient under load versus a gas motor. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Jul 31, 2021 23:58
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the charging needs to be real fast because people aren't going to park in a community charging spot then come back out in an hour or two or six to move their car. the charger will be occupied for hours at a time, long after the car is done charging Seems like some of the issues are the cost of charging equipment and the grid infrastructure to supply the kW needed for multiple chargers. I wonder if you could improve this by having a single charger connected to multiple cars with multiple leads. I.e at the start of the workday, six cars plug into a single charger. The charger round robin charges them, one after the other. The car or charger sends a text/email/whatever when it is charged. This way the grid isn’t having to cope with lots of current at once, owners don’t have to immediately move their cars, and you’re turning four chargers into 24 charging spots.
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Aug 1, 2021 02:00
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Capt.Whorebags posted:Seems like some of the issues are the cost of charging equipment and the grid infrastructure to supply the kW needed for multiple chargers. This always exists in some form and is used today at some public charge lots. Usually it’s not always all or nothing, it’s sharing. Maximum charge rates are throttled if there are a lot of vehicles present at low state of charge.
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Aug 1, 2021 02:30
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Platystemon posted:It enables the car to use an engine sized for average power demands and to run that engine at its most efficient speed and load (which is close to its maximum output). I agree it would be great seeing diesel electric, but I do foresee one problem - people having no idea how their car works and freaking out when the diesel starts charging the batteries. "Mate, I was just driving down the high street at a crawl and suddenly the engine started to rev the poo poo out of itself! Must be hosed, aye."
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Aug 1, 2021 14:12
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I agree it would be great seeing diesel electric, but I do foresee one problem - people having no idea how their car works and freaking out when the diesel starts charging the batteries. Doesn't seem like a real problem, honestly.
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Aug 1, 2021 22:58
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It's one of the things that stopped continuously variable transmissions from being everywhere. People are dumb and hate change. "I know how a car is supposed to sound and operate"
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Aug 2, 2021 05:49
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Megillah Gorilla posted:It's one of the things that stopped continuously variable transmissions from being everywhere. LoL no it isn't.
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Aug 2, 2021 05:51
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Well, who am I to argue with that incisive, well reasoned position.
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Aug 2, 2021 06:51
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Megillah Gorilla posted:It's one of the things that stopped continuously variable transmissions from being everywhere. CVTs started out as unmitigated trash and haven't gotten much better. They destroy themselves under normal conditions at a very, very disproportionally high failure rate and basically explode with any kind of load put on them. Megillah Gorilla posted:People are dumb and hate change. "I know how a car is supposed to sound and operate" And to "solve" that they just programmed them to feel like they are shifting when you first get going from a stop, then they go into their optimal range once you're up and rolling. Nominally less fuel efficient, but cheap and easy solution. So again, not at all the reason they aren't everywhere. And no, the basically bulletproof Prius "CVT" shares absolutely nothing with the current crop of CVTs other than also being made out of metal and that it too can be called a transmission. Motronic fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 16:39
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Well, who am I to argue with that incisive, well reasoned position.  sometimes someone is so self-evidently ignorant that all there is to do is say "lol no, idiot"
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Aug 2, 2021 16:42
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I agree it would be great seeing diesel electric, but I do foresee one problem - people having no idea how their car works and freaking out when the diesel starts charging the batteries. Well, given that it'll largely be something outside their control, they get to find out from their mechanic how its normal and go on with life.
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Aug 2, 2021 16:43
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I agree it would be great seeing diesel electric, but I do foresee one problem - people having no idea how their car works and freaking out when the diesel starts charging the batteries. What you are describing is exactly what happens when driving an uncharged Chevy Volt, and has never been an issue for anyone. Granted, it never really had that big of a market penetration, and anyone who's ever owned one knew what they were getting into, but it's not like there isn't a precedent here.
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Aug 2, 2021 18:06
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That’s not how Volts worked. When uncharged they cut directly to the gas engine. It does not charge the battery via the gas engine at all. You could use regnerative braking to charge the battery while mainly working off the gas engine, but the engine never revved high to charge the battery. Source: owned one for a year and drove it locally and on a long road trip.
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Aug 2, 2021 19:56
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My (2nd gen) prius will run the gas engine (not rev it, mind) in situations where it shouldn't "have" to - obviously when the battery is low (but even when stopped in those situations), but also if it's cold out (presumably since it's drawing heat for the interior heater from the gas engine). It's noticeable enough that I could see someone mistaking it for revving (since the car is 100% silent if only the electric motor is running). They also seem to charge the electric engine using the gas engine directly, and not just through braking (or at least that's what the on-screen display indicates is happening)
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Aug 2, 2021 20:21
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enki42 posted:My (2nd gen) prius will run the gas engine (not rev it, mind) in situations where it shouldn't "have" to - obviously when the battery is low (but even when stopped in those situations), but also if it's cold out (presumably since it's drawing heat for the interior heater from the gas engine). Yeah the Prius has a generator inbetween the transmission and engine 
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Aug 2, 2021 20:31
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TheScott2K posted:Doesn't seem like a real problem, honestly. Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:34
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Riven posted:That’s not how Volts worked. When uncharged they cut directly to the gas engine. It does not charge the battery via the gas engine at all. You could use regnerative braking to charge the battery while mainly working off the gas engine, but the engine never revved high to charge the battery. And I've owned one for the past 6 years and take it on regular long trips. That being said, the transmision is made in a way where power can be routed in various different permutations, which does include ICE->Battery as well as ICE->wheels, so there is a software component at play here, and the factors that drive how the car chooses to route the power can be nebulous at best sometimes. Maybe the later models changed the dynamics, but the first Gen Volts definitely do that. On mine, at least, I can even force the car to maintain a higher baseline battery charge (called "Mountain Mode") which is useful because the ICE is dogshit at accelerating in upward slopes. Aramis fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 20:40
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The Volt also cannot move the car under its own with just the ICE, it basically combines the ICE/Generator output with the Electric motor for Extended Mode to charge and power the electric motor at the same time and split the torque of both motors to the wheels.quote:Mode 4. High-Speed Extended-Range Propulsion (Engine Running). The blended two-motor electric propulsion strategy used at higher speeds in EV driving has also been adapted for extended-range driving. In this mode, the clutches that connect the generator/motor to both the engine and the ring gear are engaged, combining the engine and both motors to drive the Volt via the planetary gear set. All of the propulsion energy is seamlessly blended by the planetary gear set and sent to the final drive. https://www.greencarcongress.com/20...s-driver-e.html 
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Aug 2, 2021 20:52
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CommieGIR posted:The Volt also cannot move the car under its own with just the ICE, it basically combines the ICE/Generator output with the Electric motor for Extended Mode to charge and power the electric motor at the same time and split the torque of both motors to the wheels. Yes, but the devil's always in the details. The actual ICE/Electric ratio in Mode 4 is not set into stone, and nothing says that the ratio cannot be 100%/0%. That depends a lot on the current state of the battery though. The car reports 0% charge when there's actually something like a solid 30% left so you really have to give it the business for a while before it throws in the towel and goes full ICE, but it can happen. Afterwards, that's when you get seemingly excessive revving as the car works hard to get back up to "0%".
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Aug 2, 2021 21:06
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HootTheOwl posted:Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it. Does it broom, or does it vroom?
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Aug 2, 2021 21:11
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HootTheOwl posted:Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it. At least in the UK that's a legal requirement for safety reasons. Pedestrians need to be able to hear the car.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:22
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah the Prius has a generator inbetween the transmission and engine Eh, not really. That's how Honda's older systems worked, but in the Prius the motor-generator units are integral to the transmission; the transmission literally can't send power to the wheels without the motor/generators. It's still way more reliable than most automatic transmissions and CVTs, because it's a long-solved problem to make a reliable pair of electric motors, and modern automatic transmissions and belt-and-cones CVTs are complex, fragile, or both. There are a few sites out there that give a good breakdown of the Toyota power split device - here's one that is deeply nerdy but doesn't need a mechanical engineering background or anything like that. The mechanical components are incredibly simple, and the whole car is very reliable and efficient because of it. It's a shame that a lot of "car guys" saw it and went straight to "eww, hybrids suck," because from a mechanical standpoint it is an amazing, beautiful piece of engineering that takes one of the most complex systems in most gas-engine cars and makes it about as simple as an open differential. HootTheOwl posted:Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it. CVTs have to add fake "shifts" for the same reason, too.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:58
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Mega Comrade posted:At least in the UK that's a legal requirement for safety reasons. Pedestrians need to be able to hear the car. Yes. But also the cabin.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:03
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Space Gopher posted:Eh, not really. That's how Honda's older systems worked, but in the Prius the motor-generator units are integral to the transmission; the transmission literally can't send power to the wheels without the motor/generators. It's still way more reliable than most automatic transmissions and CVTs, because it's a long-solved problem to make a reliable pair of electric motors, and modern automatic transmissions and belt-and-cones CVTs are complex, fragile, or both. Forgive me, I missworded that: It is integral, you can even see it in the cutaway. I was thinking of a different hybrid. Honda used an external motor/generator on their transmission: 
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 22:04
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HootTheOwl posted:Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it. also to stop them from killing blind pedestrians constantly
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Aug 2, 2021 22:15
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:also to stop them from killing blind pedestrians constantly HootTheOwl posted:Yes.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:44
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HootTheOwl posted:Electric cars have to make fake engine noises because of it. Do you get custom noises? I could get my boomer dad interested in an electric if it sounded like a souped up muscle car. In my case, I would replace the engine noise with entrance of the gladiators that plays faster and louder the harder I rev.
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Aug 2, 2021 23:11
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Freakazoid_ posted:Do you get custom noises? I don't know the specifics but yes they make engine sound mods. https://www.sound-booster.com/en/sets/electric-vehicle.html
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Aug 2, 2021 23:22
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As someone who works for a tool vendor, big companies love Milwaukee as they are tough enough to last a season but cheap enough to replace if they don’t (let’s buy a skid of sawzalls) Makita makes great tools but they are a bitch to get repaired.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:42
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aaaannnnnnndd to bring it to back to techbro nightmares, a prediction, car brands will copyright their ICE sounds and sell them as a monthly sub service and the RIAA will help fund lawsuits to stop pirating , soundalikes, and CR free sounds.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:43
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PhazonLink posted:aaaannnnnnndd to bring it to back to techbro nightmares, a prediction, car brands will copyright their ICE sounds and sell them as a monthly sub service and the RIAA will help fund lawsuits to stop pirating , soundalikes, and CR free sounds. Impossible, there's precedent against that. You can't copyright the sound of an instrument, you can only copyright any specific recording/performance.
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Aug 3, 2021 04:07
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As a Volt owner my car does not make any engine noises when it's on electric. The only noise is a sort of electric whirring sound like you're letting go of a Hot Wheels in reverse. The ICE noises, rumbling, and vibrations when the ICE is on only serve to shame me for not driving on electric.
Zachack fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 04:27
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