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TheLoneStar posted:True, but no one read Dragon Ball because it had a good story, just for the comedy and fight scenes. Toriyama also had some pretty pushy editors, with the Cell Saga having to be changed around three times because Toriyama's editors didn't like the direction he was going in. Android 19 and Dr. Gero were sincerely going to be the main antagonists, but the editor was like "That's dumb, change it." so he introduced 16, 17, and 18. He got told again it was dumb and to change it, so Cell got shoehorned in. I mean you can argue that’s jojo a appeal just instead of fight scenes it’s weird stand powers
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Aug 19, 2021 21:03
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| # ? May 27, 2024 20:40 |
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https://yamapy.net/jojolion_mystery_summary/ big list with a bunch of araki's forgets/gently caress ups. he needs a new editor "In # 99, it is said that the orchard of Mamekorei's father was destroyed by the attack of rock insects, but in # 75, the orchard went bankrupt due to the interference of his peers."
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Aug 20, 2021 00:00
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Relin posted:https://yamapy.net/jojolion_mystery_summary/ Dying from rock insects is a type of interference
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Aug 20, 2021 00:04
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Relin posted:https://yamapy.net/jojolion_mystery_summary/ So...in the earlier chapter they say "Oh it went under because of business poo poo." and then they revealed "It went under because it was actually destroyed the secret rock insects that not everyone knows exist." That's not a plot hole or a gently caress up. Please understand how stories work before you try to be Cinema Sins but for Jojo.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:12
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Xad posted:iirc it wasn't even his current editor it was a former editor who kept being like "it's an old man and a clown? Dumb!... It's two brats? Dumb! Ew it's a bug guy? Dumb!" etc. Also this editor was entirely correct even if it resulted in the absolute bore that is Cell.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:14
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:So...in the earlier chapter they say "Oh it went under because of business poo poo." and then they revealed "It went under because it was actually destroyed the secret rock insects that not everyone knows exist." I’m confused how are these the same other than you really want to believe
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Aug 20, 2021 00:17
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Oh wait your doing what comics call a no prize where your connecting unrelated events to cover up holes
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Aug 20, 2021 00:19
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CharlestheHammer posted:Oh wait your doing what comics call a no prize where your connecting unrelated events to cover up holes how is it unrelated if someone is said to have happened for a mundane reason earlier on but then it's later revealed that it was the work of something more directly nefarious am i going insane
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Aug 20, 2021 00:23
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Johnny Joestar posted:how is it unrelated if someone is said to have happened for a mundane reason earlier on but then it's later revealed that it was the work of something more directly nefarious If you think Part 8 is cohesive, yes.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:27
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Funky Valentine posted:Also this editor was entirely correct even if it resulted in the absolute bore that is Cell. He was only correct about the clown tbh. Anyway, Araki just shouldn't write mysteries.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:So...in the earlier chapter they say "Oh it went under because of business poo poo." and then they revealed "It went under because it was actually destroyed the secret rock insects that not everyone knows exist."
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Aug 20, 2021 00:36
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What did that last rock insect do anyway, the one that disabled Josuke, how did it work?
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Aug 20, 2021 01:02
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FirstAidKite posted:What did that last rock insect do anyway, the one that disabled Josuke, how did it work? Seems like it just latches on, and then either when you try to remove it or it feeds off blood, it multiplies. So when it multiplied too much, then Josuke became very heavily weighed down.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:09
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Relin posted:that's not the way it's couched in the story. the ch. 75 bit is stated as fact by a narrator in the present, while ch. 99 is in the past. it was retconned (or he forgot).
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Aug 20, 2021 01:10
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Edit: nevermind
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Aug 20, 2021 01:11
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overmind2000 posted:Now that Part 8's over what's everyone's favorite bad Araki forgot/Araki retconned something fan idea for Part 8? Mine is the idea that Araki either forgot that Josefumi had a Joestar birthmark or decided later to retcon it out of existence for unknown reasons. There's a picture of him with the birthmark visible and he had a Stand with stars on it that uses an ability that also involves stars? Nah, Araki hosed that one up, it must have been a mistake The saran wrap from Yotsuyu's eyes.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:14
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Proposition: Araki forgets, but they live (Nijimura)
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Aug 20, 2021 01:23
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Reading it over, I think Jojolion kind of jumped to another set of rails narrative-wise between Blue Hawaii and Urban Guerrilla. The first half of Jojolion is solidly put together. Gappy's investigating his past and pulling on threads, and by doing so we find that there are Rock Humans and they're meddling with Morioh society. He's under suspicion and surveillance from Jobin, who's introduced with an absolutely amazing fight (Beetle Tendency). Gappy comes across first Yotsuyu (who Norisuke acts as if he doesn't know, despite him being the architect, which should've raised questions) then Dainenjiyama, then Karera and the A.Phex twins, and finally Gappy runs into the guy who's in charge of this particular gang, Damo. And after learning the truth about his past, he follows through on *why* this happened and ends up attacked by Dolomite's Blue Hawaii who's acting on Jobin's orders to stop Gappy from finding out more. OK, so with Damo out of the way Jobin is the one pulling the strings. It seems we'll get to see what Jobin's deal really is, right? Great, let's go. At this point, they detour to go get Rai, and are attacked by Urban Guerrilla there, return to the orchard to discover Poor Tom attacking Jobin/Tsurugi, go to the hospital and fight Doctor Wu then Wonder Of U and then that's it. That's the story aside from a brief interlude with Jobin/Tsurugi and Ojiro and the Rokakaka fruit graft. The whole deal with the rock doctors is a narrative detour that doesn't really accomplish anything in the broader scope of Jojolion. I think a tighter plot would've been something where Gappy/Yasuho investigate the beach/Wall Eyes and are attacked by Blue Hawaii there (on the border between the land and the sea, tying into Kira's question to Ojiro -- zombies existing between the sea and the land). They find out that Jobin's behind the attack, pursue him to the hospital where it turns out he's been running a side gig into medical research on top of the fruit parlor, fight Doctor Wu and then I don't know, Kaato then pursuing Speed King++ back to the Higashikata estate to conclude the story and break the curse. Rock Humans -> MORE Rock Humans!! ended up being a really incongruous direction to take the story, particularly given that the second set of Rock Humans don't really get any setup or tie-in to the plot unlike Damo's gang being involved both in killing Gappy's precursors and with Jobin and the Higashikata fruit parlor. After so many ominous scenes with Norisuke, Kaato, Jobin etc, it's strange that all that buildup is then ignored in favor of making Tooru the main focus. The rock doctors weren't connected to anything else in the story, whereas the Higashikata family was linked with basically everything unusual going on in Morioh. SKULL.GIF fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2021 01:37
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Honestly I feel like bringing Ojiro back to fight Tsurugi and Jobin is mostly there as an excuse for Jobin to get a real fight. It happened during Wonder of U, so it wouldn't surprise me if it Araki knew by then he was going to kill of Jobin, so he gave Jobin one last time to shine before he gets offed. Admittedly this does also give the impression that Jobin's out of his league, and also it leads to the family discovering Jobin's plan and gathering them all together to get attacked by Wonder of U. The bigger question imo is why did Wonder of U even attack the family? Mitsuba mentions she encountered the head doctor for treatment, but it's still treated as though she's under attack by him? I guess it could be that Tooru suspected Jobin / the Higashikatas had the new Rokakaka, and so sent his stand there (using her as a catalyst?) in order to eliminate them. But that raises the question of how they even get attacked, because none of them are really pursuing him to trigger calamities. There's also some weirdness where it's implied that by touching Wonder of U then you'll also be attacked by calamities? And some speculation that everything happening to the Higashikatas during the final act is the fault of Wonder of U - he's present when the kid gets hit by the gate which is blamed on Tsurugi, etc. Of course the easiest explanation is that Araki changed his mind about WoU's specifics midway through the fight, like he did between Who Shot Johnny Joestar and the proper D4C fight. But then he still had some baggage and needed WoU to attack the Higashikatas and kinda just handwaved it.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:19
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Wasn't Mitsuba planning to get involved after that fight with the other rock human doctor?
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Aug 20, 2021 02:23
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I think Norisuke was always intended to be a red herring (with Joubin being the actual link between the Higashikatas and the bad guys). The basement thing was never explained but it has a pretty trivial explanation - we already know Norisuke thought that Kira had discovered how to cure his family's curse, and he wanted to get that information out of him.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:30
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The basement thing is pretty easy to explain away via assumptions. We know that Yotsuyu used the basement as a private apt when designing the Higashikata grounds, and that his group had clued in that someone was investigating their smuggling ring. It's not a huge stretch to imagine that Yotsuyu had Kira's outfit in there as "research" into Kira, or possibly even that he was planning on imprisoning Kira there to interrogate. We never explicitly are told by a Higashikata that the room was used as a prison or whatever, it's just that Gappy or Yasuho (I forget which) suspects it would be, and they're both still under the mindset that the Higashikatas are villainous - so they easily could just see the cellar apt and assume it's a dungeon.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:36
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If it was even something like Tooru was playing nice with Jobin's weird plans and medical research to break the curse up until Tooru could stab him in the back and take over I think that would've worked a lot better than what we actually got. Just something to actually tie everything together. As it was I'm not sure Jobin even actually knew any of the rocktors beforehand despite having regular dealings with Rock Humans (Yotsuyu, Dolomite)?
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Aug 20, 2021 03:51
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TheLoneStar posted:Didn't Araki mention having an outline of Part 9 when Stall Ball Run was still in its run? If JoJolion still ended up like how it did with that in mind, it makes me wonder about how the next Part will be. I'm still cautiously optimistic, though. I just want to real quick say that "stall ball run" would have been a good name for jojolion in the end
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Aug 20, 2021 04:37
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The last chapter was a bit disappointing, but the Joseph parts were nice and the very end with Josuke becoming part of the family was well done. It really bugs me that they weren’t able to save Holly, and made it seem like it wasn’t that big of a deal. That and the billion unanswered and retconned mysteries... Man, I really want to like Jojolion more than I do. When it was good it was great, but it just couldn’t keep itself consistent for more than a year or two at a time. In the end it was mostly a fun ride and had some excellent moments, but it’s probably my least or next to least favorite part. I read somewhere that Araki got a different editor right after Vitamin C. I don’t know if that’s actually true but it would make sense. TheLoneStar posted:Didn't Araki mention having an outline of Part 9 when Stall Ball Run was still in its run? If JoJolion still ended up like how it did with that in mind, it makes me wonder about how the next Part will be. I'm still cautiously optimistic, though. Kind of. He said he had ideas of what the parts would be and their themes, but that doesn’t mean he had the details planned out. He mentioned in the past that when he comes up with a part, he has the beginning and the ending in mind. With Jojolion I think that would be the ending with Josuke deciding he’s his own person and becoming part of the family, but probably not any of the details of the last fight or even Toru.
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Aug 20, 2021 04:56
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:... but the Joseph parts were nice and the very end with Josuke becoming part of the family was well done... I don't know if it's intended but the whole "equivalent exchange" theme of Jojolion seems, to me, to cleave with what happened here, in a thematic sense. Jobin dies trying to break the curse, Kaato/Gappy actually breaks it. The Higashikatas lose one son, gain another.
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Aug 20, 2021 04:58
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SKULL.GIF posted:I don't know if it's intended but the whole "equivalent exchange" theme of Jojolion seems, to me, to cleave with what happened here, in a thematic sense. Jobin dies trying to break the curse, Kaato/Gappy actually breaks it. The Higashikatas lose one son, gain another. The Higashikata family finally gains a son who isn't a complete fuckboy.
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Aug 20, 2021 05:46
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Josuke gains a family (Higashikatas) in exchange for another (Holly)
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Aug 20, 2021 06:21
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Norisuke gains a lot of cake in exchange for his son and ex-wife.
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Aug 20, 2021 06:25
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 easily one of the best quick gags in jojo
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Aug 20, 2021 07:07
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:I read somewhere that Araki got a different editor right after Vitamin C. I don’t know if that’s actually true but it would make sense. Considering Vitamin C is the exact turning point of the story becoming mediocre I hope that's just a coincidence.
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Aug 20, 2021 07:42
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Joseph Joestar's ultimate unbeatable enemy in part 2 was kars but in part 8 it was the guardrail Had to run away from both
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Aug 20, 2021 10:22
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FirstAidKite posted:Joseph Joestar's ultimate unbeatable enemy in part 2 was kars but in part 8 it was the guardrail guardrails are there to protect cars coincidence???????? ?
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Aug 20, 2021 13:13
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Kars also pretty much became a rock person
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Aug 20, 2021 20:25
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Xad posted:iirc it wasn't even his current editor it was a former editor who kept being like "it's an old man and a clown? Dumb!... It's two brats? Dumb! Ew it's a bug guy? Dumb!" etc. Torishima is a legendary editor and a force to be reckoned with. 
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Aug 20, 2021 21:03
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I'm gonna push back on the negativity in this thread. I thought jojolion was overall an excellent part. While I'd definately agree that the first half was stronger, I think a lot of that is because it's totally different than earlier parts. Jojolion is all about Gappy's attempt to find out who he is. That's why it doesn't end after vitamin c. He figures out he came from josefumj and kira but it still doesn't answer who he is. By the end, he's a higeshkata. That's why he couldn't save holly or have a relationship with josefumis mom. He's josuke who woke up in the rocks. That's why all the arguments about main villain or plot holes are misguided. It's more about themes (I know this is a copout argument but it's how I really feel) Jobin and tooru are both the main villains imo, both going too far. Jobin (and kaato) we're willing to do anything for their families, even kill. Tooru had no concrete identity and had no loyalty to anyone, even his comrades. While I do think some things could've been made more explicit, I have some headcanon that leaves me satisfied. The walleyes are like that because of the corpse. Somehow toorus stand has to do with lovetrain (seriously, the powers are so similar) I'll read anything araki puts out and he's one of the most exciting artists imo precisely because of how unpredictible he is and how willing he is to go against expectations. For part 9, I think it'd be super cool of it's set in the future and the main Jojo is yasuho and Gappy's daughter. That might be a bit too predictible though.
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Aug 22, 2021 05:28
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I started reading the jojo manga from the beginning (already read parts 6-7) and I love this page where Jonathan gets so angry with Dio that he flexes then does a little hop and roll down a hill into a river while screaming DIO! repeatedly The anime is poorer for not having had it tbh  e:  
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Aug 22, 2021 05:40
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:I started reading the jojo manga from the beginning (already read parts 6-7) and I love this page where Jonathan gets so angry with Dio that he flexes then does a little hop and roll down a hill into a river while screaming DIO! repeatedly That part is in the anime. I know because I love it.
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Aug 22, 2021 05:51
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haha poo poo I don't remember it, I'll have to rewatch it
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Aug 22, 2021 05:53
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| # ? May 27, 2024 20:40 |
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part 8 was good. i liked that the ending was sweet and how the radio gaga incident tied up the last few loose ends in a fun and cool way. tooru was a good villian. i thought the thematic connections between tooru's stand and josuke's story arc were really good. i thought the mystery had an interesting conclusion that fit into the story really well, don't really understand the complaints about the story stuff after that. the fights, fruits and family stuff were fairly compelling to me. i happened to read a big reddit post that explained how the flash forward actually isn't that big of a plot hole, but then i realized i'm not some cinemasins guy who cares about that sort of thing. i think the araki "forgetting" memes are dumband meanspirited, it's more likely he probably just changed his mind about the plot elements. that sort of thing is bound to happen when you write something over a decade , and as long as the end result is good i'm fine with it.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:30
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